TRT therapy - positive results on the whole but negative views held by forum members

Therapeutic Efforts Pharmaceutical
#1

Many a time TRT has been brought up in the course of discussion of PFS and associated conditions.
Whenever this occurs it is usually quickly refuted as being ineffective for sufferers of PFS. I accepted this as gospel for a long time for a number of reasons. Firstly, it seems that there are few members these days posting about attempted TRT treatments. It seems as though it’s been ‘written off’ as a methodology which simply doesn’t work for us as we’ve been irrevocably changed and entirely insensitive to androgens. While that hasn’t been spelled out specifically, it has at least been strongly inferred, especially by moderators as well as some passionate and vocal members.

Secondly, it seems to go against the official theory of androgen-receptor upregulation and how due to the upregulation and thus the increased activation of receptors due to hormones, they effectively shut down at a point.

I spent a bit of time exploring past posts from existing members dating back over 10 years. Many of the members have since left the forum for whatever reason. For the ease of other members, I decided to compile a brief spreadsheet outlining the different members, whether TRT improved, deteriorated or simply didn’t change their condition. Much to my surprise I found a much higher than expected number of positive anecdotes from members who tried TRT. Benefits ranged from near complete recoveries to partial recoveries with improvements in specific symptoms.

I hope that this can reinvigorate discussion regarding TRT and if nothing else, perhaps provide some semblance of hope to the most disenfranchised members of this community.

The link to the spreadsheet can be found here:

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#2

I’m the opposite was on TRT and now aren’t. Didn’t feel much different being on TRT to me but the spreadsheet is an interesting read nevertheless.

#3

I don’t think I’m on there, but, I decided to try trt about March or so. Long story short, 3 months of testogel, 2 months low dose test cream on thighs, 2 months of 50-55mg every 3.5 days of test cyp and the last month at 60mg.

Just had a telephone appt with a dr in Dr Jarvi’s office. Got bloods at his request. My tt is way over top range… as is estradiol. I have morning erections pretty much daily. (51yrs old). However, overall I think I have yet to feel as good as my first month on testogel. I could actually feel semi hard looking at women.

I have a consult with my practicioner soon as well as Jarvi or his assistant, hopefully. I’m guessing they’ll agree to lower my dose as my hemoglobin and hematocrit are also a bit high. I’ll keep you posted.

I do feel better on trt in some ways, but, my orgasm has continually diminished and testicle sensation is nil.

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#4

I was against trt for 3 years. I finally jumped in about a month ago, along with hcg (also through Dr. Jarvi).

So far - more energy, less emotional, deeper voice, more morning erections, increased libido after hcg shots, tighter feeling muscles. I’m still completely intolerant to weights, but I do have more energy for running and bodyweight exercise.

75mg test enanthate/week subQ, 1000 IUs of hcg/week.

It’s very early to say much but if I can maintain ANY benefits, especially with energy and mood then I’m sold.

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#5

Hey @basementdweller hope things are improving. Just wondering if you had any bloodwork done lately? My tt and e2 are way over top. Curious as to how high your tt is.

#6

How often do you take the hcg per week? Did you initially try hcg without T?

#7

I just had my bloods done yesterday. My Test is high, estrogen and prolactin just at the edge. I plan on dropping the test down to 50mg and the hcg down to 750 - 900. Things should fall into range at that dose.

I take hcg 3x week. I took Test for two weeks before adding the hcg.

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#9

There are doubtless a lot of people here who actually have hypogonadism when they think they have PFS. Those people will benefit from treatment for hypogonadism (I.e., TRT). However, most people who have PFS have normal T levels with TRT therefore being of no potential benefit whatsoever.

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#10

Lowering test cyp to 77mg per week from 120, Going to add 500 hcg twice a week. In about 2-4 weeks lower test cyp to 50mg per week.

#11

You are coming up with your own closed definition of PFS. Namely a condition where hormone levels are perfectly normal and absolutely no benefit can be attained from any form of hormone therapy.
If a user has normal hormones levels and attains a 5% improvement in symptoms from TRT do they suffer from PFS according to your definition?

If we were to use your rigorous definition, many members on this forum have never suffered from PFS or associated maladies despite displaying common symptoms with everybody else.

I for one will not accept such a narrow definition of PFS as do many members have suffered from symptoms even with normal hormone levels benefited from TRT and associated therapies. Making things ‘black and white’ as you repeatedly seem to do does little to further our understanding nor help patients find some form of treatment.

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#12

Don’t take the bait, orthogs.

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#13

It seems you don’t quite have clear what TRT is. It is taking exogenous T to increase your levels from low to normal. Testosterone Replacement Therapy. You can’t replace something that isn’t missing.

If you have been wondering whether or not to take extra T for a long time, then why don’t you just try it like the many others here who have and not reported any benefit? Understand beforehand, that as soon as you take exogenous T you shutdown your natural production and ability to have children potentially for the rest of your life depending on how long you stay on it.

Do you think that the idea of taking extra T is novel here? People have been doing it for 15 years. Rather than talking about it, which has already been done ad nauseam, if I were you I would just try it and learn, as long as you are comfortable with being shutdown and unable to have children.

One of the reasons this community has failed to achieve anything over the last 15 years is its fuzziness on basics. The result has been a 15 year carousel of TTHCWP tail chasing with near-zero scientific research, countless lives lost.

If you have low T then you may merely have hypogonadism and TRT may be all you need. People with low T should assume they have hypogonadism rather than PFS until they get no improvement from hypogonadism treatment (i.e., TRT).

Unfortunately, there is also something called PFS, which is not hypogonadism but rather a condition with identical symptoms (despite normal T levels). People who have recovered by correcting their T levels recovered from hypogonadism, not PFS.

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#14

this point here, is people with normal testosterone levels, taking additional testosterone supplementation and obtaining improvement in their pfs symtoms

there is a lot of evidence to support this, as per orthogs excel, and my own experience

not sure what your issue is with this concept

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#15

I can also confirm that several of my symptoms improve significantly with higher test levels…

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#16

In order to achieve supraphysiological T levels long term, even if there was any benefit, you would need to completely shut down your own T production and then not only replace it but also take an unnaturally high amount of T. In other words, in order to slightly increase your T levels, you need to effectively be on a lifelong steroid cycle (in bodybuilding parlance).

Do you understand that? Not trying to be condescending, just verifying that you understand what is actually involved with what you propose. A lot of people here don’t seem to realize this. It is because of the HPA.

When you take a bit of exogenous T, it doesn’t increase your T levels. All it does is reduce your natural production. Take more T and then you just shut down a little more. The only way to get supraphysiological T levels is by taking so much that you shut down completely and then keep taking so much that your body has no choice but to operate with high T.

Just checking that this basic of how hormones work is understood. Needless to say, doing that is not a way of reversing PFS but rather a heavy handed way of approximating some kind of compensation on the theory that PFS is somehow related to hypogonadism. Probably 100,000 men have visited bodybuilding and TRT forums, gotten the idea to do this because they assumed higher T would bring higher libido, and failed. People have been failing with that here for 15 years. There are no clear PFS recovery stories here. We still don’t know what PFS is other than that it isn’t hypogonadism or else this forum wouldn’t exist.

#17

look buddy im not an expert on hormones, nor are you I suspect or the fast majority of people on this forum

aware of the consequences and side effects of trt and not suggesting it is a magical cure. HCG is proposed as an attractive option as it doesn’t shut you down. For some, lifetime TRT may be preferable to lifetime impotence

Im a simple man, and all I know…is that any time ive taken any kind of testosterone booster, from tribulus to boron to clomid to weight training…i have had temporary relief from symtoms. Clearly this is important and is an irrefutable fact

Im not here to postulate what pfs is or is not, or to engage in intellectual masturbation with regard to the mechanics or science of pfs are. All Im interested in is what has helped people with similar symtoms to myself

if you dont have anything constructive or positive to say, then i suggest you say nothing at all

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#18

thanks for the explanation scientist

My T levels were in range and it’s helping me, as well as a lot of other guys so…

And no, my fertility isn’t shut down because I take hcg. A lot of guys don’t bother with this important part. TRT isnt guaranteed to increase libido even in healthy men, If that’s the only reason one tries it then ya, there’s a good chance of failure, especially without hcg. If libido was my only bad symptom I probably wouldn’t even take test. I would try hcg and/or proviron first

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#19

TRT, HCG, exogenous DHT, countless herbs, anti-depressants, “lifting heavy”, nofap, and the same things time and time again for 15 years have been postulated as ways of getting better, and people have held out hope for them, gone through placebo and nocebo effects over and over, had their lives gone by, ended up miserable, childless, or in a grave. And there are almost no reports of being better long term. The few that exist probably had something different from PFS anyway, such as hypogonadism.

What’s your plan, to have your endogenous hormone production suppressed for the rest of your life while shooting T and HCG for 40 years?

Anyway, just wanted to clarify the frequent misconception that taking TRT “boosts” your T levels. Quite the opposite, in order to do TRT you have to completely shut down your natural production or else risk desensitising your Leydig cells by injecting HCG, which is a drug that is only supposed to be taken for short periods of time, not for year on end indefinitely.

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#20

ill make this real simple

  • I have relatively normal hormone levels, have not been diagnosed as hyper-gonadal
  • Many of the things mentioned by you above have been extremely beneficial for me, and greatly improved my symptoms and quality of life

Just because they haven’t worked for you, doesn’t give the right to blanket admonish them as a waste of time. And to be frank, you didn’t even take finasteride so its not surprising things that help me, do not help you

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#21

I don’t think anyone here is claiming that TRT or hormone supplementation is a blanket cure for pfs. We know it is not. What it can do is help mitigate symptoms for some people. I myself have been taking clomid for almost one year now and will switch to HCG. I feel 10x better with test levels at the higher end of the range than lower. Furthermore, the chance of being permanently shutdown or infertile after even the most hardcore steroid cycles is pretty low. Many professional bodybuilders have managed to have children after abusing steroids for decades.

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