Took Finasteride while on TRT

Member Stories
#1

Hello

I was on TRT since 7 years (primary hypogonadism). Had previous gyno surgically removed last fall.

Started loosing a lot of hair after switching from injections (Testoviron, 250ml every two weeks) to Testogel 50ml (daily). I was forced to switch to Testogel for health insurance reasons. Unfortunately, Testogel converts into DHT much stronger and caused accelerated hair loss. To combat this I decided to take Finasteride, which turned out to be a very bad decision. After only 5 weeks (1mg ed) fin completely crashed my system. By that I mean, I could not feel any more DHT in my system.

My scalp is quite sensitive to DHT, I feel a sort of burning sensation normally. Since my gyno operation I also feel estrogen very well in my chest. By that I mean, if the estrogen/dht ratio is off, I feel that very well too.

At the present, I have all the sides (ED, no libido, fatique, anxiety, sleep problems, etc.) that most of you guys have. I am off since 2 months and nothing has really improved much. I quite often get morning wood and can get an erection if I try really hard. Bad sensation though. I also lost a lot of weight. Gyno is on the way back, have varying chest sensation.

My basic blood values are the same as before I started on fin. I had a bad T/E ratio coming off of fin but that stabilized within a month to what it was before fin. I had some bloodwork done to verify this but have no values for DHT as of yet (will have that done shortly). But let’s face it: Serum DHT values are practically meaningless. DHT is not a serum based hormone but rather a intra-cellular hormone which is created there where it is needed. Even a high serum DHT value does not mean that 5AR is working correctly everywhere in the body.

Have the usual issues of no doctor believing my story.

I am now playing with the thought of replacing DHT with a DHT derivative steroid such as used by bodybuilders. Specifically Dromostanolone (Masteron) either propionate or ethenate. I will be seeing a doctor about this shortly. This would certainly take care of any gyno, body fat (pot belly) and physical fatigue issues. It will for sure not solve most of the mental issues, possibly aleviate them though. I don’t really expect any substantial improvement in terms of ED or libido. Has anybody ever considered that?

I haven’t slept in two days and now plan on taking tranquilizers and/or sleeping pills. I would prefer to wait without doing anything, but don’t feel I can wait for 5 years and survive it intact.

What do you guys think?

2 Likes
#2

Greetings and welcome to the forum, awor.

Your case is very interesting in the fact that despite being on TRT, you still ended up having issues thanks to Finasteride. In other words, the TRT did not compensate for the erectile dysfunction experienced via loss of DHT.

The fact you have morning wood return is a good sign. Do you have your pre/post Finasteride bloodwork available? It would be much appreciated if you could post this in the Hormones section.

It’s only been two months, I’d give yourself more time before commencing another form of treatment to see if things correct themselves… ie up to 6 months, or a year if you want to push it. However, I can understand your concern and not everyone wants to wait to see if things get better.

Your theory on 5AR no longer functioning correctly has been discussed on this forum, I myself have also proposed the possibility of the 5AR enzyme/androgen receptors having undergone mutation due to absence of DHT from Finasteride, and thus when DHT returns those enzymes/receptors no longer recognize it correctly. However, this is just a theory. Without testing 5AR at the genetic level, we won’t know for sure. If you can get genetic testing for 5AR activity, by all means do so.

As for trying DHT, I’d investigate further wether this may lead to decreased Testosterone production via negative feedback on the HTPA (body sense elevated DHT, lowers T to compensate). But since you’re on TRT anyway, I doubt it will make any difference.

Keep us informed as to your progress, and looking forward to your insights on TRT should members decide to pursue such a treatment route.

Cheers,

Mew.

#3

Awor, you are in the wrong forum. You need to get counseling ASAP. Can you honestly say you were happy/healthy/energetic while on TRT? If not, than you may need to revisit your TRT regimen.

But the very least, please seek counseling as termination of life is not an answer…nor is it a topic that should be discussed here in this forum.

Jack

#4

Awor, do not lose hope. Considering suicide is not the answer!!!

Listen to me, I had all the mental symptoms you are describing while on the drug. After I quit, it tooks me many months before I started to see improvements. Now 20 months off, my mind is much, much clearer, I can speak without slurring my speech (a problem while on the drug), my short term memory is coming back, and the anxiety and depression experienced while on the drug are long gone.

What I’m saying is, it’s early days yet for you and things will likely only improve, you just need to give it time. As I mentioned before, you have morning wood – this in of itself is great news… many here do not, including myself, since taking the drug.

Regarding the studies on GABAA, THDOC etc… there are more studies as I’m sure you know about this, in the Finasteride/Other studies section of this website. Yes, Finasteride does intererfere with 5ar-derived neurosteroids, hence why some of us also believe there may be neurotransmitter issues at play in this whole thing (ie, reduced dopamine or some other issue).

My advice to you is if you are able to pursue testing for 5AR activity, either via 24hour urine panel or even better, genetic testing, you may have a better idea as to what is happening. Here are some details on testing for 5AR activity via “Adiol-G”, a metabolite of DHT, either via blood or urine. propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=761

I do hope you stick around here and share your ideas, we need more discussion like this to try and figure out how to “reverse engineer” the issues Finasteride has caused, albeit to the best of our laymen abilities.

Keep us posted.

#5

Awor, thank you for posting. Your posts were very informative.

I agree with what the others have said. If you have not been off the drug for very long, then I would recommend waiting a little while longer before considering any type of supplementation.

#6

Many thanks for all your support. I am currently seeking professional help to get myself out of my hole. So don’t worry, I won’t go on with any dark thoughts here. I just wanted to be open about how bad this whole thing makes me feel. Maybe that was a little unfair because I am sure you people are not feeling all to great either.

Let me give you some additional details which you perhaps will find interesting and will help you understand my situation and experience with TRT.

After coming off fin I completely crashed. I still was taking TRT gel for the first two days but couldn’t stand it anymore and stopped. I had the feeling that all was left in my body was estrogen and that continuing TRT just made things worse. My chest was burning like mad and my penis shriveled to the size of a hamsters. Obviously what was happening was that there was not enought DHT in my system to offset the estrogen, whatever the level was back then. I then fell into the deepest hole of my life with lots of dark thoughts.

As weeks went by things started to improve. In the first two weeks I had a “recovery surge” that most of you seem to have experienced as well (sensation briefly came back into penis, had short bursts of libido, etc.). That didn’t last, though.

I was still not on TRT anymore. Five weeks later I was on a holiday for two weeks. I noticed my chest didn’t burn as much anymore and my penis had a normal size again. I even had my libido back on one morning (felt like having sex, got an erection but still numb feeling).

After 6 weeks I started with TRT again (1 gel per day). Frist things went well (2-3 days) and then I completely crashed again. Repeat all the symptoms of above. Somehow I have the impression that TRT actually downregulated 5AR again (because it went good for two days and then stopped). I occasionally have some burning in my scalp which is a clear sign for me that from time to tome some 5ar is happening again, it just doesn’t last.

I am now hopeing that that my body will adapt to that new level hormones and somehow find a balance again. Im sure it will take some time.

Btw, I just saw that someone updated wikipedia with a clear warning about propecia. I wish that would have been there 4 months ago!

awor

1 Like
#7

Hi Mew

You have stated “I myself have also proposed the possibility of the 5AR enzyme/androgen receptors having undergone mutation due to absence of DHT from Finasteride, and thus when DHT returns those enzymes/receptors no longer recognize it correctly”

you are probably right.

i have been through extensive medical testing over the past months. after having tried just about every hormonal treatment known to mankind my doc is now of the opinion that i must have somehow become androgen resistant due to propecia. he already did genetic screening of my blood (cag repeats) but now he wants to check the actual ar activity at the cell level. he is not aware of any comercial lab that performs such tests, though.

do you know of any lab that provides ar testing based on fibroblast cells? do you have information that supports your theory?
do you know of anybody who has tried to write a letter to bmd/merck?

he also wrote a letter back in october to bmd (merck) demanding that they come out with any information that they have concerning lasting propecia side effects. in december, after getting no response, he wrote another letter. do you know of anyone who has written to bmd/merck and if so, what was their reply? everyone on this site should write a letter to bmd. their reaction could possibly be the basis for a law suit.

#8

This fucking crap will be banned within a few years.It is good that your doctor treats you with a real respect, which is kind of exception.

What is going on`with your progesteron levels?

#9

My doc did this too, it’s important that as many as possible do it. I got the impression that the swedish investigation won’t lead to any results because doctors do not do these reports even if this drug has decreased the quality of life for many men.

I will write to Merck too and ask what to do.

I too am under numerous medical tests because of this, and the doctors seem clueless about how to fix it.

#10

You are lucky you have a doc willing to work with you to investigate this further… hopefully you guys might turn up some answers…

This is just a theory, but I’m not sure if it holds any water since I and others DID RECOVER when we quit the drug – approximately 1.5-2 weeks after stopping, as DHT returned… however, recovery was short-lived and within 1-2 weeks of initial recovery, things starting going downhill fast (drop in T levels, shrinkage, loss of libido etc).

Plus the fact I experienced a semi-recovery 1 year later when I had Norwalk virus for 2 days and my penis and testes returned to former size, along with decent libido, tells me this is not permanent and likely not a mutation.

HOWEVER – if you still want to investigate the mutation route further, I can’t say I’ve come across any studies that directly relate Finasteride as causing a mutation in 5AR-II… however, these may be of general interest (note some relate to prostate cancer, however, thus may not be relevant):

books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr= … gsZAvVuuWM
(see pages 45 - 62 for general info on AR function/mutations)

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … t=mutation (note Fin also downregulates AR)
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … t=mutation

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … t=mutation
"Another cause of isolated secondary hypogonadism is a mutation of the GnRH receptor. In these cases, GnRH is secreted by the hypothalamus but does not stimulate LH secretion by the pituitary. A third cause is a mutation of the DAX-1 gene, which leads to hypogonadotropic hypogonadism and to adrenal hypoplasia congenita. "

clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/c … /5/11/3578
“We found one tumor from a finasteride-treated patient with a mutation in the steroid binding domain at codon 726 leading to an Arg-to-Leu substitution. This mutation was also present in the germ-line DNA of this patient.”

"Taken together, we have shown here by CGH that prostate cancers appearing during finasteride treatment have only few genetic alterations and that, in some cases, alterations in the AR gene may be involved in the adaptation of the DHT-deficient milieu. Further studies are also needed to demonstrate the importance of Arg726Leu germ-line mutation of the AR gene in the etiology of prostate cancer and especially finasteride-associated prostate cancer among Finnish and other populations. "

pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl … tid=544619
“Given that hormone ablation selects for AR mutations and these mutations can cause the development of aggressive and metastatic disease, it could be argued that maintaining an intact androgen signaling axis would be of benefit to most patients”

jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/reprint/80/7/2149
(has info on amino acid substitutions and other changes in 5AR2 due to mutation)

Your situation is a bit different than others here in that you were already on TRT when you took Finasteride, which may have impacted things too. Not sure how though… anyway, as for Androgen Resistance, have you investigated Androgen Resistance/Insensitivity Syndrome?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_i … y_syndrome
emedicine.com/ped/topic2222.htm

Note the lab tests and treatment options in the above link!

Also here is a potential genetic test for mutations in AIS: jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/conten … /88/5/2185
"Five mutations in the ligand-binding domain (LBD) of the human androgen receptor (hAR) found in patients with varying degrees of androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) were investigated for their effects on receptor dynamics. "

Question: What was the result of the genetic screen (CAG repeats)? Did it come back normal? I assume so since he is now interested in testing at the enzyme/genetic level.

Besides trying to test at the cellular level (by testing genital skin fibroblasts for 5AR2 enzymatic activity, or genetic PCR analysis of 5AR2 gene to check for mutation), suggest you test for the various hormones/ratios listed in this thread (my post, 11th down, with the screenshot), since that is also something Finasteride can throw out of whack (and is related to liver C19/C21 metabolism):

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1079

Also, consider testing 5AR2 deficiency as follows, from “Molecular Study of the 5 a-Reductase Type 2 Gene in Three European Families with 5 a-Reductase Deficiency”
jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/reprint/80/7/2149

“Diagnosis should be determined on the basis of physical examination, pedigree analysis, analysis of basal and post-hCG-stimulation plasma T and DHT levels, 5/3/5,
urinary steroid metabolite ratio, and in some cases by measurement of 5aR activity in cultured genital skin fibroblasts (13,14). However, as in family 1, enzymatic activity is sometimes within the normal range (6, 15). Isolation and sequencing of the complementary DNA encoding 5aR2 (5) provides the molecular tools required for definition of the gene abnormalities responsible for 5aR deficiency.”

You might also want to investigate 17b-Hydroxysteroid Dehydrogenase 3 Deficiency?

rarediseasesnetwork.epi.usf.edu/ … x.htm#nomo
“Plasma androstenedione levels are elevated 10-fold or more, whereas testosterone and dihydrotestosterone levels are in the low or low normal range for normal males”

captura.uchile.cl/dspace/bitstre … /Rey_R.pdf
“The association of a lack of testosterone increase after the hCG test and a testosterone/4-A ratio less than 0.5 was considered as highly predictive of 17-HSD deficiency (25). Finally, the activity of 5a-reductase was evaluated by using the testosterone/DHT ratio after hCG stimulation. A testosterone/DHT ratio higher than 35 was considered as highly predictive of 5a-reductase deficiency (26). A testosterone hCG/basal ratio of at least 2 associated with AMH SDS of at least 2 was considered as highly predictive of partial androgen insensitivity.”

Regarding liver involvement – you might want to get this investigated further… the liver plays a huge role in steroidogenesis and thus, some theorize Finasteride has affected liver steroidogenesis/metabolism, especially considering that 5AR is produced there (see study in below link) and because Finasteride is heavily metabolized by Cytochrome P450 system/CYP3A4 enzymes (and inhibits hepatic C19/C21 metabolism as well, plus 5AR is found in liver), that this may have caused post-Fin issues:

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=789

Also note that elevated liver enzymes can occur as a result of Fin use:

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=182
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1024
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1023

Some other general thoughts about how we came to this state (proposed by Galapagos and myself): propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … t=mutation

As for finding a lab – try Quest Diagnostics, they have a location in the UK but may have in Switzerland (call and see): questdiagnostics.com/brand/c … ities.html

Also this lab, don’t know how legit they are but they are in the UK: sas-centre.org/home.html

Beyond that, your doc might consider contacting University medical research departments or Hospitals as a potential testing facility. Or, contact the authors of studies where you see the tests being done – they are obviously possible to get done, somewhere.

Keep us posted.

sites-of-5AR-mutation.jpg606Ă—776 96.7 KB


AIS.jpg602Ă—698 161 KB

#11

Thanks for your sweeping response to my questions.

CAG repeats where in the high-normal range suggesting slight androgen insensitivy to start out with. 46, xy karyotpype is normal. With “AR” I was referring to the androgen receptor and not to the enzyme (5ar). He is not considering testing at the enzyme but rather at the receptor level (see below).

If our investigations will get me anywhere is another question. This whole thing seems, even for the technical minded, dauntingly complex. I went through a few docs until I found this one (incl. the renowned names in the states). He even passed me on to a further specialist at a university hospital who said that he recognizes something is wrong with Propecia but said that there was no known cure to my problem.

My situation is a little special in at least two aspects: TRT plus the fact that I had a case of gyno removed 18 months ago (pre-Propecia).

After quitting, my state (all symptoms) got increasingly worse over the months (after the initial magic two weeks). Some days being better than others. My chest pain increased to the point where it felt like if someone had poured acid over my chest. I had to put on ice packs to calm the pain. No painkiller would help. I suspected an estrogen/androgen misbalance of some sort. Then I found my doc. He ran some blood tests on me and found estradiol to be low/normal, dht was in range as well. My values could not explain the pain. After excluding every other possible non-hormonal cause with a complete check-up he bought in and prescribed me Nolvadex. This improved the situation considerably. Since it was increasingly clear that conventional pathology was not going to explain this, we both decided to try a few things by feeling. There is no way I could have lived with the pain situation so I had nothing to loose. I then tried Arimidex which improved the pain situation further. Next was a short period of Aromasin in place of Arimidex which led to further improvement but not to complete relief. Aromasin was driving estrogen too low which caused negative sides. I stopped daily Aromasin (but kept Nolvadex to this day) and went over to the androgen side of the equation. Testogel was of no help and only made things worse (increased chest pain and all the other symptoms – Testogel converts to estrogen more than injections). I then tried Andractim. Surprise – it helped but does not last long (relief < 1 hour). It initially even gave me some libido back. Proviron further reduced the pain. I then switched Testogel for Testoviron. Even 600mg test per week has no significant positive effect (I can only handle the injections by taking half a Aromasin with the injection). Fact is, 100-150mg test/week had me feeling great and horny 18 months ago. Now, four to six times that much has no effect. I have administered both Andractim and Proviron in high doses with no substantial effect besides reducing my chest pain somewhat. So where does this leave me? My body is not reacting to androgens “normally” anymore. I can feel every pmol of estrogen like an atomic bomb, but I can drop a testosterone bomb onto my body and it would not even notice. I have clearly become insensitive to androgens. The answer to “why” is what we are trying to find out. My gut feeling is telling me though that science hasn’t advanced into hormonal territory far enough to provide that answer. Anyhow, my doc is now contacting three further university hospitals to see if they have any AIS specialists or even research groups.

In summary:

We both don’t believe that 5ar deficiency of some sort is the problem because I don’t show a strong reaction to directly administrated dht (Andractim, Proviron). I personally don’t believe in, but wouldn’t rule out, metabolic issues.

The problem can’t be related to a malfunctioning hpta axis because mine wasn’t working right to start out with. Exogeneous test worked well with me before Propecia but produces no effect now.

Estrogens can’t be the primary cause either. Otherwise Arimidex/Aromasin would have helped.

We believe that some form of androgen insensitivity/resistance is at the root of this whole mess causing (in my case – still theory):

Massive muscle wastage due to missing/blunted activation of the androgen receptor by test/dht.

Change in fat distribution due to same + downregulated androgen receptors in fat cells.

Regression of androgen dependant tissue (fibroblasts) leading to changes in penile form and initial prostate problems.

Severe depression, which is also known to be linked to low test. Androgen insensitivity could logically lead to the same problem. Btw, I found SSRI’s to counterproductive but NRI’s (eg. Endronax) to get me back on track again – highly recommendable. One exception to SSRI’s: Remoron. Will help you sleep and get you morning wood – no kidding (but not that this solves anything). Yes, I know about SSRI induced ED but currently I don’t care. ED is a luxury problem at my stage.

A misbalance in androgen/estrogen receptor activation in breast tissue leading to gyno (and in my case massive associated pain).

Downregulation of natural test production due to a perceived misbalance of androgen/estrogen at the hypothalamus.

Etc. There is probably no single symptom of this “post propecia syndrome” which can’t be explained by androgen resistance (including libido, erectile function, …).

I personally don’t believe in a mutation of the AR for the same reasons you mentioned. But there seems to be a lot more that can go wrong in the androgen receptor and downstream signaling process. There might even be some unknown (and damaged) regulation process involved. But the next step is to see if test/dht is activating the receptor at a normal rate in cell tissue. But I am not sure what the answer to that will tell us after probably spending a lot of money to get it. It would perhaps provide a solid foundation for a lawsuit.

This brings me to my last point: Everybody – write a letter to BMD/Merck (or even better have your doctor write one). Do it, it’s important. Try to get their reaction. If they get hit with requests from everywhere across the globe they will react either perfectly coordinated or in contradiction. Documentation of both (specially the latter) could prove to be invaluable in a court case. And that court case better come before their patent runs out. Please post attempts and answers in this forum (dedicated thread would be great).

2 Likes
#12

Awor:Sorry for asking, but what are your exact persisting symptoms? I had the same problem, even if my T levels jumped up, I did not feel much better…as if something had changed and gone horribly wrong in my body.

Will make a letter to Merck tomorrow, doc made an official report. Considering the amount of adverse effects and the Swedish authorities investigating finasteride use, something has to happen.

Edit: I wrote an email to the manufacturer of my generic fin and asked a response as I am seriously thinking about legal action. Did mention this in my email.

#13

Awor. Have you ever heared of downregulation of auto immune system provided by finasteride??

When you hit that point it is highly propable to get chlamydia pneumoniae and many other bacteria which can mass up with your body affecting cells.

Do you know that chlamydia pneumoniae which you can get from everywhere, especialy when your auto immune system is screwed up, might be very easy to get?

Have you ever heared of this or you are just focused on hormons which are propably in range…?

How works your digestive system, got any alergies…?

Chlamydia pneumoniae is known to be the important factor in building neurodegenerative symptoms, yes it can lead to the central nerve system imbalance, pneumoniae affect cells in many different tissues.

I am not telling you that you must have ChP, but this is a very important to start investigating yourself with. Check your blood for the possible presence of this bed bacteria, and I also suggest you doing the test of your stool to seek for the diferent types of bacteria that can also devastate cells after this imbalance in the auto immune system.

#14

Thanks for the update… will reply later with more thoughts, but in meantime here is info on patents:

209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:Jg … d=19&gl=ca

Merck’s patent on Finasteride (for the treatment of BPH) expired on June 19, 2006.[2] Merck was awarded a separate patent for the use of Finasteride to treat Male Pattern Baldness. This patent is set to expire in Nov 2013.[3]

accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/c … ble1=OB_Rx

– Click links in upper left, looks like 2012.

PS: Here are some materials your doctor may find of use in how to go about investigating Androgen Insensitivity/AR testing, if you care to present them to him to help:

gendercare.com/library/tipslibrary7.html
bioscience.org/1996/v1/a/lee1/htmls/lee.pdf
geneclinics.org/profiles/and … tails.html

#15

Awor. There is something else that I forgot to mention that might explain this phenomenon you already put a sticker on with androgen insensitivity name.

To be honest there is something else that might play a role in this area rather then androgen insensitivity by itself (especialy due to the fact that finasteride has no effect on androgen receptors).

I am talking about progesteron. Progesteron is the most potent natural DHT inhibitor. When you took finasteride for some period, you kept it away from being transformed to its metabolites. Your body then trying to compensete for the lack of sufficient allopregnolone, were over producing it, but still it was not converted enough. At the same time huge amounts of progesteron started doing finasteride job, even better then propecia itself, and not letting 5 alpha reductase to be reproduced. I call it a looped mechanism, because I strongly believe, that we can be stuck in this circle, despite we are not consuming any hairloss pills any more.

I suggest you reading different topics especialy due to the lack of any medical protocol concerning our rediculous situation we have to find the recovery protocol on our own.

PS: I really advice you doing progesteron test to find out if it is doing the job, finasteride was managing before. Most of guys here have elevated progesteron and this is propably the major issue in this field.

#16

hi majkellos,

I do have elevated progesterone (at least in the blood test I took 10 days ago), and others imbalances with female hormones (prolactin+estradiol).

otherwise, dht is normal (in the high part of the range) and hair loss has resumed the former pathway, as far as I can judge.

see my tests here

#17

JG. It doesn’t realy matter what your blood DHT level is.

YOu have to focus on the mechanism rather then just judging your profile by the blood stream levels.

Progesteron is a very tricky hormon if elevated. First of all it supress LH, FSH release (that’s also what many people report, low LH, FSH). The main problem might be with oxytycine release which is initated by impulses from Hypothalamus. Oxytycine boosts 5 alpha reductase activity, which helps to boost the convertion of T to DHT. And this is definitely how it works. People suffering MPB experience much faster balding process adequete to their sexual activity. Oxytycine play a huge role in this process as it affects sex eager via regulation of 5 alpha reductase brain and prostate activity. Elevated progesteron may actualy give you that feeling of a brain being dead or disconnected from your genitals, so as the rubery dick syndrom due to the oxytycine deficiency.

We are talking about the pulsative mechanism of action. Unfortunately You will not find it at your blood work.

The main goal is to analyze what could be the reason for this hormonal imbalance. Liver might play a huge role in this. Taking care of this organ might be helpfull. Another thing is taking care of your auto immune response and keeping in in the right balance. That’s why you need to check your liver first plus do some tests for the presence of bacteria and peptites which can make your cells disfunctional within many tissues.

#18

I agree with you it may be more than just hormonal.

I would like to make deeper investigations, but still waiting for my appointment.

What can you check about the liver ?

LFT (Liver Function Test - AST, ALT, etc.) ? something else ?
can you measure oxyticine ?

#19

GGTP the most important for the hepatic liver activity.

Liver has a unique potential to re-establish its functions even after huge disaster, some doctors name it a magic ogran.

YOu have to treat yourself well and add some hepatic enhancement pills like essentialle forte.

Oxytocine is a pulsative neurohormone, that works correct if anything else is in order , so if we consider a defficiency of oxytycine we have to be aware of the fact that it is a result of different problem, not the cause.
In the whole chain of reactions it is somewhere in the midlle where elevated progesteron supress LH, FSH release, decreasing oxytycine output then. We have to look first what make porgesteron elevated… most propably the intracellular damage caused by many different bacteria developed during the long term immune system downregulation.

More impotant is to get your full bacterial feedback from your blood, urine, stool including all types of chlamydia, peptites… and anything that you might get during the time your immune system was downregulated.

I already got the feedback from chlamydia tests and I am pneumoniae type positive. Pneuminiae affects cells in many tissues and interupts central nerve system if it persists in a body for a long time.

There are also many other possibilities that you have to research. Curently I am waiting for my blood/urine/stool samples results.

#20

Onni: I read your story earlier and it sounds like we both went through pretty much the same stuff.
My current symptoms:
My biggest problem: Various levels of chest pain (incl. breast/nipple tenderness) and developing gyno (fat lumps). This (pain) makes it hard to work or concentrate on anything at times.
Massive muscle wastage (I was well trained with about 12% body fat prior to this crap), AIDS like face changes like you mentioned, bony fingers. Managed to gain some lean weight again with high-dosed testosterone. My belly is starting to go from flat to bulge though. Boy do I hate summer coming up…
All the usual sexual dysfunction stuff. My dick shrunk and now curves left (why always left??). Went through the same color changes and “it’s going to fall off” feeling like you described.
Very depressed despite Endronax (but without Endronax I would be guaranteed not to be here anymore). Mentally felt like being on speed with Endronax for the first months (very creative, good ideas). Constipated thanks to Endronax.
Mental energy is pretty good, also thanks to Endronax. But my brain is starting to show signs of strain. Understanding complex problems is not as easy for me anymore like it used to be. My decision making quality is getting bad (I am not always grasping the full picture anymore like I used to). My capacity to remember things is going south.
Higher pitched voice.
Various degrees of burning/tingling sensations in hands/fingers. This makes it painful to write on a keyboard at times, for example.
Super-low physical energy. I move around like a lizard in Alaska.
I have gone from rather aggressive (in a positive sense) to very mellow personality wise. I often don’t like being around people anymore. Used to love listening to music. Now I hate it.
About 3 months after this whole thing started I couldn’t sleep anymore. I started to use sleeping pills for the first time in my life. As I got “resistant” to those I had to add Temesta. Now I managed to change Temesta for Remoron. Still am taking sleeping pills. Initially had a high level of anxiety.
Blurred vision, got a little better over time (with testosterone?)
Tinnitus got worse.
Had some prostate problems initially, seems to be better now (even though I am hitting the prostate very hard with all sorts of androgens).
I managed to progress with every step of my medical saga. The benefits never seem to last long though. Specially regarding testosterone and Andractim. I required increasingly higher dosis to get the same modest effect. It seems like my body is actively resisting androgens and is seeking to keep homeostatis in a very skewed way.
I had a complete check-up done recently. From a clinical point of view I seem to be in perfect health. Blood lipids are a little borderline and liver values a little high. I sometimes wonder how long my liver is going to survive all the medication I am taking. Talk about loading the Cytochrome P450 /CYP3A4 system…

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