Thissucks' tests results (UPDATED: 24-hour urine/4th blood test/Crisler visit details)

Member Stories Lab Tests
#1

Ok so I’m 24 years old and I’ve been off Propecia for a year. You can read my full story HERE: propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1142.

I just got my blood tests back and I had extremely low free testosterone, high cortisol, and low white blood cell and platelet counts (infection or immune dysfunction?).

NOTE ABOUT THE TESTS: When I saw the prescription my endo filled out, I mentioned that we should test other hormones such as E2, progesterone, etc… He said it wasn’t necessary and he wouldn’t be surprised if all my tests came back normal. Smart guy. I am going to try to get a second set of more complete tests, but this is all I have at this point:

Endocrinology-

Testosterone - 462 (240-1000)
Testosterone (Free) - 2.32 (2.50-10.50)
TSH - 0.87 (0.35-5.50)
Cortisol (P.M.) - 12.8 (2.5-10.0)
Prolactin - 6.5 (4.0-18.0)
Vitamin B12 - 907 (211-911)

Complete Blood Count-

WBC - 4.3 (4.4-11.3)
RBC - 5.46 (4.50-5.90)
HGB - 16.5 (13.5-17.5)
HCT - 48.5 (41.0-52.0)
MCV - 89 (80-100)
MCH - 30.2 (26.0-34.0)
MCHC - 34.0 (32.0-36.0)
PLT - 145 (150-450)
RDW-CV - (11.5-14.5)
MPV - 11.1 (7.2-11.1)

Comprehensive Metabolic Panel -

Glucose - 80 (74-106)
Sodium - 142 (136-145)
Potassium - 4.2 (3.5-5.3)
Chloride - 103 (98-107)
Bicarbonate - 29 (21-32)
Anion gap - 14 (10-20)
Urea nitrogen - 12 (6-23)
Creatinine - 0.95 (0.60-1.30)
Glom. Filtration Rate >60 (>60)
Calcium - 9.2 (8.5-10.1)
Albumin - 4.6 (3.4-5.0)
Alkaline Phosphatase - 54 (33-120)
Total Protein - 7.3 (6.4-8.2)
AST - 16 (10-37)
ALT - 31 (10-65)
Bilirubin, Total - 0.8 (0.0 -1.2)

My endo mentioned that he wants to start me on Androgel 1%. I am very uneasy at doing so, I am 24 freakin years old for heavens sakes. He didn’t mention any specific risks, but after doing research here I have read about how Androgel shuts down endogenous testosterone production, can cause testicle atrophy, etc.

He asked me if I had a cold when I had the tests done, which I didn’t, now I am worried about my immune system as well.

Healthwise right now I basically feel horrible, with extreme fatigue, brainfog, anxiety, very low libido, pain in testicles, shrunken everything, erectile difficulty, and general feeling of sexual exhaustion. I have a girlfriend and we are still able to mess around, even though I’m half broken. I no longer have complete erectile disfunction (I did in the past), but its harder than it should be, especially with how bad I feel.

After reading about varying degrees of success on here with Sustain Alpha, I am planning on starting with the Complete Tesosterone Recovery Stack before even considering TRT: primordialperformance.com/te … _stack.cfm . I am still fuzzy on other treatements mentioned around here like Clomid, Nolvadex, HcG, etc.

Thoughts?

#2

Yes your Free T is low – and thanks to this Endo your blood tests do not indicate LH, FSH, Prolactin, Estradiol, SHBG etc. I have no idea why he would not want to test for these to get the bigger picture as to WHY your Free T is low.

SHBG and Albumin in particular are crucial as they BIND to Free T … you could have elevated SHBG and not even know it, hence why your Free T is so low. Similarly, elevated Prolactin or Estradiol could be causing you issues with Total Testosterone levels, and LH/FSH are important to distinguish between pituitary (secondary) / testicular (primary) dysfunction when it comes to sex hormone production.

Can’t comment on the Cortisol, although it points to the adrenal glands. You’d need an AM/PM Cortisol test, plus a DHEA, DHEA-S and ACTH test… and preferably 24hr urine panel instead of blood test to evaluate cortisol changes over the day.

Clomid, Nolva, hCG would be advisable before taking TRT because TRT is essentially for life, and without hCG you will be infertile/nuts shrink (of course you can quit TRT at any time).

If he were to put you on TRT, is he not aware that he should be testing for Estradiol, Hematocrit, Hemoglobin, PSA etc? These can be affected by Testosterone therapy.

If I were you, I’d get a 2nd opinion and more tests – offer to pay for them yourself if you have to. There are studies in Drug Therapy section about Clomid/hCG for boosting endogeneous T. Dr Crisler likes to use Tamoxifen as the first step for this as it supposedly re-sensitizes the pituitary to gonadotropins. You can try the recovery stack (as you plan on doing) and see if it makes any diff first, of course.

TRT should be an absolute last resort, if no docs want to try jumpstarting your own production (not that you are super low on Total T, it’s the more crucial Free T that needs boosting) then consider seeing Shippen, Crisler, or possibly Goldsten (inquire with him first if he is willing to jumpstart).

PS: pls post ALL bloodwork – ie, Hematology panel

#3

Hey Mew, thanks for the reply. I’ve edited my post above with the complete blood test results.

My endo did test Prolactin - it’s listed up there - but you’re right about all the others that are missing. I forgot to mention that he does want to do a second round of tests. I talked to him briefly over the phone, and he said he would mail me the prescription for the additional bloodwork. He didn’t say what he was ordering, but hopefully all of the above are on there! Is there anything else that should be tested?

One thing I haven’t found any information on is: What happens when you quit TRT? Do you go back to how you were before the treatment? Will you be worse (possibly from testicle atrophy?)? Is there a possiblity you will be better?

Hematocrit and hemoglobin were tested in the CBC and are now listed above. If he doesn’t have E2 on the next prescription I’m going to ask him to mail me a new one.

I agree about TRT, I find it frightening that he didn’t warn me about the implications of its usage. Unfortunately, due to lack of funds I won’t be able to visit the above doctors anytime soon, but I will press my endo for alternate treatment options. If I go for a second opinion, the appointment probably won’t be for another 2-3 months, so what do I do until then? :confused:

I’ll keep you all updated on the recovery stack once I try it.

#4

Well there is a revised list here:

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=92

If you can get Adiol-G, that would be awesome because it indicates 5AR-II activity. Also, the list that JoshCurtz posted (in that thread) from Rhein labs is quite comprehensive as well.

Well since TRT is akin to taking steroids, without PCT (ie, clomid, nolvadex after coming off) you would likely be shutdown for awhile when you come off TRT, since you’ve been surpressing the HTPA… thus it may take weeks/months for your endogeneous T production to come back online. In the meantime you’d probably feel like absolute shit.

The guys over at AnabolicMinds, MuscleChatRoom or MesoRx would probably have more insight on this aspect.

Possibly, but unless your body maintains a newfound homeostasis after TRT (ie, T magically comes back to Pre-Fin levels), then you would probably just return to your old post-Finasteride state. That’s just a guess though.

Although, this guy makes some good points about taking a Testosterone “holiday” with TRT as a way to get your body back on track:

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1351

Hit the gym, lift heavy, cardio, herbal supplements to boost T if you want to try before more bloodwork…

#5

If you have immune system issues you should go for pneumoniae tests. I am not telling that you deal with pneumoniae but this is something basic what you should do while dealing with auto-immune deficiencies.

#6

So I got new blood tests taken, and the results are puzzling to say the least. While my Free T was out of range two weeks before, it is now supposedly in range. There was a slight time difference as the first tests were taken at 2 PM, the new tests at 11:30 AM.

The new tests show that DHT is very high. This does not surprise me since my hair loss has picked up and my scalp is red and inflamed. FSH looks extremely low, and E2 seems to be a bit on the high side.

Testosterone 654 (241-827)

Free Testosterone 13.15 (4.0-27.0)

C3 90 (80-178)

DHT - 1130 (112-955)

FSH 0.8 (< 18.1)

LH 3.0 (1.5-9.3)

Estradiol 36.0 (11.6-41.2)

The doctor had ordered another CBC, but the lab screwed up and didn’t take it. When I talked to him, the doctor asked me if I had started taking the Androgel, and I said no. He asked me if I felt any better, and I said no, actually the opposite, since I have felt terrible lately.

Even so, he told me to not take the Androgel and acted like I was cured. :open_mouth:

I am really frustrated as I cannot seem to draw any conclusions from these results. My endo has been useless, and I really had to press him to even gets the tests that I did. I am still not convinced my Free T is suddenly normal, and wonder if these results are wrong. After all this, I still feel terrible, my hair is still falling out and I still have no answers.

Comments are welcome and appreciated.

#7

Your DHT is pretty impressive. No other comments then… it is a high time to start your mycobacterial journey.

#8

is this about that pneumonia thing again?
let it rest please man…

#9

You still did not get SHBG or Albumin tested – these would provide insight into WHY your Free T is low. You could have skyhigh SHBG and not even know it.

Yes FSH is very low… have you had a fertility/sperm test done? If not you should consider it.

E2 also seems quite high, nearing top of range… probably has an impact on things. I’d try and bring this down.

The elevated DHT I’m not sure what’s going on there… based on that result seems your body is overproducing DHT… ? You should ask about testing/calculating the T/DHT and T/E2 (androgen:estrogen) ratio…

Other things to consider, maybe try Nettles (supplement – supposedly frees up bound Free Testosterone from SHBG, but can also inhibit some DHT) or some DIM supplements to try and bring down E2, as well as lots of cardo to shed bodyfat and a healthy, clean diet.

Maybe try another endo as well for more comprehensive testing…

#10

thissucks, youre pretty much wasting your time with any other endo, besides Shippen or Crisler. I’ve heard Hulinsky, in Conn., also does HRT, but not sure whether he treats Fin patients.
Good luck!
But my suggestion, dont waste your time getting more tests. Sign up with the people who know, they’re gonna get you their own panels of blood tests anyway, from their own labs. :unamused:

#11

yes can we please ban this guy again once and for all. he offers no insight what so ever just pure garbage that he is clutching at straws with. anyway, he’s just part of the reason why i really don’t come on here anymore.

#12

Hey Mew, I did get Albumin tested the first time, and it was near the top range. Concerning SHBG, I asked for that one and my endo said taking Free Testosterone was “a way around having to test SHBG.” :unamused: Trust me, I had hard enough getting him to order the tests he did. He told me that he has NEVER even tested for DHT before…

How do you get one of those and is it expensive?

I am thinking about trying Nolvadex, but I’m not sure how to get it without a prescription… Are there other DIM supplements that people on this board have used?

#13

thissucks, Just because I only want to help people. you seem approachable, and it also seems you are new here. You are simply following a pattern most of us have tried here. I.e. getting comprehensive blood tests from somebody local, and talking/gaulking about it here on this site for a long time, and not getting cured this way.
Quite frankly, I could honestly say that NOONE has been cured this way. Noone has been cured by their local endo, that I know of at least. Sure, it may serve as a baseline, for before you decide to get real treatment, but AGAIN you are pretty much wasting your time if you dont sign up with one of th professionals.
Go ahead, wait for your dick to shrink all up, and become atrophied, and unusable, just as some users such as Mew claim, with tissue changes and all, just because you decide to pussy foot around pleading and trying with some local endo who simply doesn’t know best, or more. You cant teach your endo. You just have to go to the right doctor who can get you treatment right away. Unless of course you want to sit around for years and do NOTHING with “tissue changes”.
Peace man.
Good luck.
But the longer you wait, the more at risk you probably are.
Use it, or lose is the expression, and it is very true!!

#14

Well I saw the doctor again a week ago, and got some new tests done. Here are the results:

Endocrinology-

Testosterone - 457 (240-1000)
Testosterone (Free) - 2.44 (2.50-10.50)

Complete Blood Count-

WBC - 4.8 (4.4-11.3)
RBC - 5.26 (4.50-5.90)
HGB - 16.0 (13.5-17.5)
HCT - 46.6 (41.0-52.0)
MCV - 89 (80-100)
MCH - 30.4 (26.0-34.0)
MCHC - 34.3 (32.0-36.0)
PLT - 146 (150-450)
RDW-CV - 13.1 (11.5-14.5)
MPV - 11.6 (7.2-11.1)

Differential -

Neutrophil - 58.8%
Lymphocyte - 30.5%
Monocyte - 9.0%
Eosinophil - 1.3%
Basophil - 0.4%
Neutrophil - 2.8 (1.2-7.7)
Lymphocyte - 1.45 (1.2-4.8)
Monocyte - 0.43 (0.1-1.0)
Eosinophil - 0.06 (0-0.7)
Basophil - 0.02 (0-0.1)

Lyme and Mono tests - negative

If you remember from last time, my last round of tests showed that my testosterone was normal (which I think was wrong). So my endo saw that and decided I was fine, and sent me back to the GP. I was infuriated.

However, I’ve also been feeling very sick lately, with my sexual sides feeling like a completely different issue entirely. I decided to go the GP more for the bodily sickness than the propecia stuff.

So while telling him about the nausea, headache and fatigue I’ve been experiencing, I also mentioned that I wanted to get my testosterone tested a third time because of all the sexual sides. He agreed with that, but would test no other hormones.

So we get it done, and sure enough my free testosterone is once again in the tank. My balls hurt and feel absolutely exhausted, so I am not surprised at all.

Unfortunately I didn’t get any other endocrinology done, and the rest didn’t show much. My white blood cell count is back in range, while my platelets run low. Everything else looks pretty much normal.

Meanwhile, I feel sicker than ever. I bought some tamoxifen from 4rx.com and I plan on starting soon, using Quint’s protocol that he received from Dr. Crisler.

I also called Dr. Crisler, but it was $300 for the initial visit. Which was cheap compared to the $500 for Dr. Shippen. I got the meds, so I’m going to try some self therapy for now and see where it takes me. I’ve really been disillusioned with the medical community for the time being. My endo was just so hapless and disinterested in my case, and basically was a complete waste of time.

I also realize I still haven’t gotten SHBG done which may indicate why my free T is low. I haven’t been able to get these doctors to order it. However, even if SHBG is high, can anything be done to lower it?

#15

yes danalozol or something like that

#16

Ah I see, thanks. I think I’m still going to go with the tamoxifen for the time being.

By the way Boston, thanks for the advice earlier! I took a look at your labs, and saw a lot of similarities with mine like the low free T, low but normal range total T, and high DHT! How have you been doing, and did you ever take the Clomid or any other meds recently?

#17

Well I saw Dr. Crisler, and attached are the results of my 24 hour urine panel, and 4th blood test to cover anything not found in the urine test.

Basically, Dr. Crisler said I was suffering from Adrenal Fatigue as well as the low testosterone (obviously secondary hypogonadism, although he didn’t mention this by name).

When looking at my results, my cortisone/cortisol levels are low, which seems to support the theory that my adrenals are exhausted. Sleep is terrible, and I wake up exhausted, yet I’m awake and alert at night. My estrogen is already very low, my SHBG is mid-range, and my DHT is actually now in mid-range as well.

So why is my testosterone so low?

One thing is for sure, my FSH continues to be at rock-bottom levels. LH is also low. This obviously needs to be corrected.

Treatment for now is 10-15 mg Hydrocortisone/day for the adrenal fatigue, and the identical tamoxifen regimen prescribed to Quint as an attempt to restart my endogenous testosterone production.

I’m also loading up on vitamins, Omega 3’s, zinc, L-arginine ketoglutarate on workout days, and melatonin at night.

So far it’s been a week, and I’ve felt nothing…
Test Results.doc (198 KB)

#18

Interesting…
Did you meet with him in person in Michigan? Did he act optimistic, and what more did he say?

Do you still have shrinkage, pain, coldness, ED, and prostate symptoms?

What did he say as far as a time frame goes?

Thanks! Good luck bro!

#19

Hey thissucks, good to hear that you got over to see Crisler. Personally, I think that in the long run, the cost and effort of seeing him is totally worth it. On the one hand, I’m still suffering from all of the symptoms, and obviously I want desperately to get the hell over this thing, but on the other hand I trust his expertise and am confident that I’m 100% more likely to get better with him rather than without. The tamoxifen wasn’t the right answer for me, but now we’re looking at other options (I think that my problems are more with estrogens that Testosterone).

I think he’s a really competitive guy, in the sense that it bugs him if he can’t solve cases. He’s obviously less experienced to deal with us finasteride guys than steroid users, but that’ll change the more he gets patients coming to see him.

Anyway, I felt great while I was on tamox, but it took 5 or 6 days to kick in, so maybe you might feel better soon. But I guess the adrenal fatigue is another story, too. I had an AM cortisol test here recently and it was just a touch below midrange, so I guess it’s not a problem for me, but I always kind of thought it might have been.

#20

Also, I know it’s linked in here somewhere, but here again is the doc’s own web forum, which is full of good info and knowledgeable posters. Specifically, for laugh, this links to a thread which links to another thread at anabolicminds where a poster (former patient) was trash talking Crisler, which provoked a response from people defending him, and then Crisler himself. It’s pretty funny. I think I spent like 45 minutes reading it one night before bed:

musclechatroom.com/forum/showthr … olic+minds