Yeah man, it is as if the actual nerve is not damaged, but a matter of whether or not things are firing correctly in the body, or cells I guess. I have gone from pure horror to fully recovered, so it can change. It is funny, I have smoked before fin and after fin. You feel the same effects you said, if I remember correctly. For me, it is nowhere near as nice as pre fin. Maybe it is just because I feel like garbage in general, but it is much different for me. I have been wanting to try again though, as I have had mixed results.
Well this is the crux of the problem and a key difference/definition of PFS, as has been noted in various articles on the problem, and quotes from those investigating it.
Unlike some posters, for me, these types of things (penile/scrotal numbness, shrinkage, muscle atrophy, gynecomastia, loss of libido etc) do not change based on outside variables.
They have been decimated by Finasteride, and since taking Finasteride. In other words, persistent and irreversible.
So if you find your issues “fluctuate” daily from one extreme to another, then we are talking about two differenct ends of the spectrum. The problem that these researchers are trying to fix, is why does this drug cause such PERSISTENT changes.
The link Second Amendment posted a few posts back is of interest in this regard:
Epigenetic side-effects of common pharmaceuticals: A potential new field in medicine and pharmacology
medical-hypotheses.com/article/S0306-9877(0900291-6/abstract
Also, quotes from 3 different articles on propeciahelp.com
Per the quotes above, this is a very complex problem, likely mediated at the MOLECULAR LEVEL. Some people would rather not think about this possibility, but it is where much of the science points to.
Are you having a go at me mew, my situation does not change except when i smoke weed(sensitivity, orgasm better), have you tried weed post fin?
I have been destroyed by finasteride in all aspects. I was just saying that in my experience the numbness for example is not 110% consistent and it does fluctuate from time to time, but aside from two full recoveries sensitivity is nowhere near as good as it was before finasteride at any point. In my case, smokng pot has not done much for sensitivity, or any other supplement for that matter. It is weird, it just sort of “happens when it happens” and I guess I cannot pin point any one exact thing I am doing that helps it. I agree that it is the cells and molecules and all of that crazy scientific stuff a simpleton like myself does not truly comprehend.
No I’m not “having a go” at you. I’m explaining how my situation has been for the past 6+ years. Yes I have tried weed post-Fin and have not noticed any changes in penile tissue sensitivity, unfortunately. Interesting that your sensitivity improves while mine does not, wonder what the difference could be.
Perhaps hormones trying to re-balance themselves? Unfortunately there is no way to know.
Mew, can you offer a reasonable explanation for IHP’s recovery? His symptom list mirrored the classic PFS symptom list. If the damage caused by finasteride is molecular damage—how do you venture to explain how IHP reversed this molecular damage? Do you suppose that molecular damage occurs only in some? Or that it’s reversible by some mechanism? If so, how?
It’s unclear if you do not believe IHPs recovery, if you attribute it to androgens he took years ago, or if you think it’s going to be short lived. These are all inferences one can make from your initial reaction to his report. Can you clarify your take on IHP’s report?
Please explain his recovery, his full sexual recovery from impotent, libido-less male with extremely low DHT and T levels to a virile, regularly-fucking horny male with high T and mid-range DHT. What happened? Was this not PFS? Thanks.
That was explained almost a year ago early in the prostatis treatment/kos thread.
I don’t why people are trying to discredit IHP for the steps he’s taken to recover. I’ve tried all the hormones, trt, arimidex, provorion, clomid and didn’t do anything for me.
At this point no one knows what the cause of PFS or if hormones are the root cause of this, maybe it’s something entirely different causing a cascading effect and we need to support other functions to recover.
Right now, we know IHP did recover from PFS, it would be worth spending some time looking into the gut, candida, immune system response and see how it affects our entire system and how it affects hormones as IHP’s hormonal profile improved after treatment.
Congratulations to IHP and thank you for sharing your recovery story. I hope you stay around long enough to answer questions once I get a better understanding of the gut immune candida system.
My experience is similar to Mew’s. I do not experience fluctuations with the exception of some side effects like weight management and muscle atrophy getting somewhat worse. None of my sexual functions have improved much less resolved.
As stated above, all the scientific evidence points toward this being a problem with gene expression. Maybe those of us sexually decimated have had more genes effected or gene expression for the genes at play for sexual health more adversely effected.
At this point 2 main things matter…
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There is research being done. What they are looking at with the research makes sense, but we definitively do not know the results and will not know for a while.
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IHP has recovered by treating an infection (most likely fungal, may or may not be Candida).
Maybe I am an idiot, but I think its obvious that many more of us need to test (2) while (1) is being worked on behind the scenes. Testing (2) will not hurt the results of (1).
I know for 100% that I had multiple infections the 3 days leading up to my crash and for almost a week or 2 after my crash which I have never 100% recovered from. Unfortunately right now I am not in a position to take all of the steps that IHP did and test it out. Surely some other guys here are able to ???
According to the folks involved with the research project we’ll have an answer later this year. In terms of scientific research, that’s the blink of an eye. We already sort of “know” what they are assuming when you consider the work they have done so far. Again, the specifics of where along the gene expression path will be clearer later this year if I understand correctly. Inability to fight infections and the like might be symptomatic of the root cause.
Boston and Mew, the fact that your symptoms are different do not mean you are the only one to have “real” PFS and that you should exclude any theory that doesnt intuitively explain your individual cases. That kind of reasoning is NOT scientific at all. “All the scientific evidence” you’re referring to is actually really the one you’ve been looking for to support your theory, based on the observation of your own cases. You both are suffering from confirmation bias and selective data blindness. Again, the way you are refusing to explore any other research avenue that doesnt seem to fit with you pet theory and your individual cases is anything but constructive, or scientific.
Mew, you should put a clear warning somewhere in this forum, along the lines of :
I remember a thread where a few guys started to see good results with Royal Bee Pollen, which has anti-fungal properties.
This might help with some of the Nystatin Dosing confusion:
1 ml = 100,000 units (the concentration of Nystatin liquid)
5ml = 1 teaspoon = 500,000 units
1 tab = 500,000 units
Typical Standard Nystatin dosage:
5ml (500,000 units), 4x a day = 1 teaspoon, 4x a day
-OR-
1 tab (500,000 units), 4x a day = 1 pill, 4x a day
IHP has referenced working up to FAR greater doses: viewtopic.php?p=50672#p50672
15 tabs would = 7.5M units
15 liquid teaspoons = 7.5M units
That would come out to a daily total of up to 15M units. (30 pills of 500,000 unit strength per day).
Also, keep in mind that although IHP personally made the biggest initial, sustained gains via Nystatin (and thus by targeting intestinal fungus), he has advised to think of PFS as opportunistic pathogenic infection of all possibilities (fungal, bacterial, parasitic). So IF this concept is true, dysbiosis (imbalance of good to bad bacteria in the stomach), fungus accompanied by parasites and bacterial infection would have to be considered possibilities. IF this is one of the underlying etiologies of PFS illness, then it would follow that there would be many different scenarios of infection. IHPs dosing is what he experimented and found to work for him. It’s unknown what the minimal effective dosing would be, or the minimum amount of necessary “ingredients” from his list of meds/supplements. But the underlying theme was: fight infection, get bowels to clear, minimize digestive workload.
imao is really too much
who tried apart IHP ?
"finasteride isn’t limited to its target tissues but in fact can reduce DHT in many tissues, potentially affecting not only nerve-signaling pathways in the penis but also the ratio of male-to-female hormone levels circulating through a user’s body. One study Traish cites found that men taking 1 milligram of finasteride daily had significantly higher levels of estradiol—the predominant female sex hormone—than men taking a placebo. Just as worrisome as the possible effects in body tissue is the growing evidence that finasteride can enter a man’s brain and disrupt key chemicals therein. "
If this is true then it sounds like its permenant. Is it? How do you even begin to treat something like this?
“it is as if something shuts off biologically, and stays that way… Biologically, something gets shut off and gets shut off once and for all… Traish thinks that may be because nerves that are maintained by dihydrotestosterone become permanently degraded and can’t be repaired even after men come off the medication.”
Can we be fixed? If a nerve is damaged it can’t be repaired.
My question is if this is really nerve damage why do some of us have brief recoveries? I for example wake up with prefin erections in the mourning if it really is nerve damage why would it come and go? the only thing that dosent change for me is libido. However if it is nerve damage maybe Tacrolimus (FK506) could help us.
Can we…what if…maybe blah blah , no its not permanent damn it ! If it were permanent there wouldnt be recoveries…dont be afraid to feel hope my friend
i was one that took pollen & R jelly.
i had some minor improv but didn’t last. dunno if about antimycotic properties
i heard that Nystatin act on sterols that r precursors of steroids