Sleep, Insomnia, and Recovery


#21

Will do. Going to get my annual check up today. Not sure what kind of panels to ask for that would have any actionable response aside from things like thyroid and vitamins like D.

Going to ask for Trazodone or other sleep aids, non-benzo preferably.

Tonight I slept for only 3 hours again on 60 mg Temazepam (something I take once every few years) which is a dosage that should knock myself out pre-fin and anyone else for throughout most of the night at least. There is definitely something unmistakbly wrong with me neurologically at the moment.


#22

For sleep I take Quetapel 25mg and 3/4ml of liquid melatonin an hour before sleep. Taken 30mins before bed I was still struggling to sleep but when I changed to an hour I fell asleep very quickly. I’ve found that taking either of these on an empty stomach leaves me feeling groggy in the morning. To overcome this I tried eating different foods an hour before bed to see if it improved my sleep quality. Some of the things I tried included peanut butter, brazil nuts (selenium), fruit, ice cream (dairy/non-dairy) meat, cottage cheese with whey and whey protein shake.

The best outcome was cycling cottage cheese with whey and ice cream. If I took one of these for around two weeks the groggy feeling came back so I just alternate between each one for a few days then switch to the other. So maybe ice cream for a few nights then switch to cottage cheese etc. For ice cream I don’t eat anything rich like Haagen Dazs just a plain recipe such as vanilla.

To reduce high nighttime adrenaline/cortisol I take Vitamin B6 100mg and slow release Niacin at 1500mg. Apparently B6 can increase Testosterone so if you are sensitive to hormonal changes it might be one to avoid. For Selenium I take the Life Extension brand, I cap a night.

Baclofen 10mg has also worked very well and allowed me to sleep for 8 hours. Unfortunately I had a small crash in the morning after the 4 or 5th time of taking it. I don’t know for certain if it was the Baclofen or due to fasting for 14 hours two days in a row. I have stopped using it for now. Some here have had a lot of success with Baclofen. I don’t think it’s supposed to be taken every night due to tolerance etc.


#23

Turns out Temazepam is strongly cross tolerated with all the Ambien I’ve been taking lately this year. It also worsens my sleep apnea considerably causing arousals and I was trying to sleep 5 hours before my normal sleep schedule, so there are those factors to consider.

What’s worrying now is I’m getting muscle weakness and tingling. Started with my left arm, now it’s in my left hand and left leg. I can’t type as fast with my left hand anymore and I’m starting to find myself dragging across ground when I walk. Not crashing, right? Just reversible withdrawal symptoms? Is that all you got, Fin?


#24

There isn’t gonna be just one topic, but this topic I post about body temperature and sleep might help.

https://forum.propeciahelp.com/t/body-temperature-needs-to-be-colder-when-sleeping-now/9310/11

Also you shouldn’t take trazodone or any other anti depressants for sleep, they’re just just as dangerous as finasteride. Try unisom for sleep or don’t use drugs and try to sleep on your own, that’s what I did.


#25

Well damn, I am on my 2nd day of Trazodone at 25 mg. What are the risks of taking Trazodone? On wikipedia, it says long QT prolongation and pathological priapism. So those risks? I also read it’s an atypical antidepressant so has minimal serotoninergic reuptake inhibition like classic SSRIs.


#26

You can get PFS from anti-depressants. Same risks as finasteride. Read the banner at the top of the forum home page. It warns against anti-depressants.


#27

Oh, I see. I think the top banner is talking about SSRIs like fluoxetine, Paxil, Zoloft, etc. causing post-ssri sexual dysfunction? I actually took Paxil and Citalopram long term and neither caused any sexual sides (I’m a little hypersexual) but the discontinuation of the latter may have helped to contribute to my chronic insomnia problems. I don’t know if Trazodone belongs with those other SSRIs I’ve mentioned, especially not at the dose I’m taking which doesn’t yet have enough 5htp interference to function as an SSRI, I think?


#28

No, side effects can occur at any time and at any dose just like with finasteride. Just because you took them before and were fine doesn’t mean you’re immune to side effects. You’re taking a risk with any anti-depressants, but it’s your body, do what you want with it. I dealt with insomnia without any drugs besides taking unisom a few times. If I can do it, you can.


#29

You’re definitely right though about possible sides in the future. And I have to weigh the risks of not sleeping vs the risks of taking whatever drug I need to get some restful sleep. Though as someone who’s been traumatized by chronic severe insomnia, it’s hard not to want to take something in order to get some decent sleep again if only for a short time.


#30

lol it’s a 5AR1 inhibitor just like accutane, you’re making a poor decision taking it

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15936112,

Common Link Among SSRIs, Accutane, Finasteride, and Bicalutamide: EGR1 Induction,


#31

lbv are you sure this is the case with Trazadone though?


#32

Yeah, it may not be specifically an SSRI but it’s close enough. You can get ED from it, you might as well lump it in the same group of all anti-depressants. I wouldn’t be surprised it was later discovered that it inhibits 5AR2s like finasteride too.


#33

Well shit, thank you. I would have never known.


#34

Welp, look at this.

"Vehicle or trazodone (5, 10, and 20 mg/kg/day) was administered to rats for 28 consecutive days ( per group). At the end of that period, sperm concentration, motility, morphology, and DNA damage were determined and testicular morphology was assessed histopathologically in rats.

Additionally, we investigated hormonal status by determining serum testosterone, FSH, and LH levels and oxidative stress by determining glutathione and malondialdehyde levels in testicular tissue to elucidate mechanisms of possible reproductive toxicity.

According to our results, sperm concentration, sperm motility, and normal sperm morphology were decreased; sperm DNA damage was increased in trazodone-administered groups. Degenerative findings on the testicular structure were observed after trazodone administration in rats. Additionally, serum FSH, LH, and testosterone levels were elevated in the trazodone-administered groups. Increased MDA levels were the signs of enhanced oxidative stress after trazodone administration in testis tissues. Thus, we concluded that trazodone induced reproductive toxicity in male rats; this reproductive toxicity was accompanied by oxidative stress and hormonal changes, which are considered as important causes of reproductive disorders."

This really sucks. Trazodone got my hopes up as I was able to sleep for over 7 hours uninterrupted with it. Over 7 hours without waking up is so huge for me. I don’t remember the last time that’s happened to me in 4 years. It was such a blessing. I just want to sleep and I have trouble falling and staying asleep for more than 2 hours at a time at the moment. Melatonin doesn’t work. I’m afraid weed would be too addictive for me as I had trouble quitting so many times before. I could try stuff that work only on histamine but those make me so constipated and aren’t without cognitive sides.


#35

It does suck man, I sympathize, I felt like a zombie for almost a year dealing with sleep issues.

If you can relax when you wake up maybe you should just avoid drugs and keep trying to fall asleep on your own. If you read my body temp sleep post I used to stay in bed 12-15 hours a day trying to fall asleep multiple times. Otherwise if unisom gives you some bad effects maybe you should hop back on weed if that keeps you asleep. You won’t get any REM sleep with weed but you will get physical rest which isn’t that bad. Weed is addictive though, but it beats the hell out of using drugs like trazodone.

You really need to ride it out for a year because most likely your sleep will improve on its own in like 8-12 months. You just got PFS, you need to toughen up and just deal with it cause a lot of people have gone through the sleep issues and got through it.


#36

Well, sadly I live with my parents. I’d also be risking getting kicked out of the house if they so much as get a whiff of weed again. Also for the same reason of living at home, the most I could do is set the thermostat to 22 C or 69.8 F, which is comfortable enough for me but I wish I could set it a bit lower. There’s this thing called a ChiliPad that’s like an air-conditioned mattress topper but it’s too ridiculously expensive for me. You might want to check it out, though.

How long did it take for your sleep to recover back to somewhere normal?


#37

You need to show your parents how serious PFS is. There’s a foundation with a list of doctors they can talk to. pfsfoundation.org

Weed is way safer than any other drug you could possibly take for sleep. Make them understand. And do the same for the temperature. Show them the suicide stories.

I didn’t figure out the body temperature thing till like 6 months after I got PFS. I went through the 2017 Summer with the AC only at 70 degrees. It would take me like 2 hours just to fall asleep. If I had known I would’ve set that bitch to 45 degrees and probably would’ve gotten more sleep cause I needed the AC to be on even during the winter and that’s when I figured it out. I have a door in my room and even when it was 45 degrees outside I was still too hot. The wind blowing with the AC made a huge difference so maybe you can set a fan on in your room to help.

Your 3k bed might not be all that cool either, I would try a blow up mattress and buckwheat pillow if I were you, that’s the coolest method I’ve found and I still use it now. I also sleep with socks on, a light long sleeve shirt, and light sweatpants and only 1 or 2 thin cotton blankets. The long sleeve shirt, sweatpants, and socks make it possible for me to not need a thick blanket thus keeping me cooler than if I slept with a t shirt and shorts and a thicker blanket. It’s weird but it works. Sometimes I still only sleep with the cotton blanket partially on me cause my clothes keep just warm enough to sleep but not hot enough to wake up.

My sleep is pretty much back to normal, it took 1 year and 6 months to be able to sleep 8 hours regularly only waking up 1-3 times per night mainly due to frequent urination. I still keep the AC at 68 degrees though. And speaking of frequent urination, dude you might get that side effect too. It didn’t hit me till like 2 months after I quit the drug. You’re creeping up on that time period. And it made sleeping awful, I’d have to get up to piss literally every 30 minutes when I was trying to sleep. Like I could sleep 2-3 hours without having to go but after that initial sleep phase I had to go the rest of the night. I barely slept. Count yourself lucky if you don’t get that side effect. If you get it prepare for hell.

Thanks for the mattress pad suggestion. I might look into that if it’ll save on AC bills in the future. You should make your parents for it or sell your bed to buy it cause that looks like it could really help you.


#38

So true. Weed cured my insomnia. Literally just 2 puffs a night


#39

Well last night I still took the Trazodone at 25mg because I am incredibly, inhumanly desperate, but it stopped working after two nights.

So Trazodone is indeed a 5AR1 inhibitor through 5ht2a stimulation because it ends up inducing 5AR1 gene expression which is a marker for 5AR1 inhibition? Am I getting this? I asked the same question outlining its possible mechanism of action from two papers in the thread you linked to me: Common Link Among SSRIs, Accutane, Finasteride, and Bicalutamide: EGR1 Induction

I of course don’t understand the science and I’ll stop taking it once I have clarification. I am terrified of possible worsening of PFS anyway so it’s in the trash at the moment.

I am not sure how to convince my parents to allow me to try weed again. I’ll risk getting kicked out of the house given their extreme conservatism and my history with weed that involved dropping out of school and a suicide attempt after they found out about my use. I tried so many times trying to quit too, rebuying and flushing it down the toilet ad nauseam, and finally did after a long battle with my weed addiction. I used to vape heavily when my sleep maintenance insomnia started getting really bad so I don’t remember it helping with that in the first place. I might risk my life anyway just to get some sleep again. There’s got to be something else I could try that’s safer than ADs for my extreme insomnia right now.

I’ve had chronic prostatitis w/ frequent urination due to my chronic insomnia. It’s now come back. Not as bad as when it first started, but, it’s still bad.


#40

I don’t think the science matters with the AR inhibition. If a drug interacts with those enzymes or gets close to it, it’s bad news, that’s really all you need to know.

Show your parents this post and to do research on PFS. Weed addiction can occur but it’s nothing compared to literally all other addictions, you shouldn’t feel guilty about it. You can pretty do anything you want when you’re high, don’t drive or anything but it barely impairs you for regular activities. Your parents need to get a grip on reality and chill out if their disapproval drove to you consider suicide for using weed. Like what the fuck is wrong with them. Tell them to get their heads out of their asses, weed is fucking harmless. God damn.

There’s nothing else that’s really safe for insomnia. Trazodone can give you PFS. Ambien is a shit drug, I suggested unisom but you don’t like the effects of that. You probably can’t afford Belsomra like the user anonymous cause that shit is $5k a year. Melatonin doesn’t work for you. It’s either weed or do nothing.