Simple Theory and my Simple Test Results

General Discussion
#21

If your theory cannot explain that, then it’s false. According to you:

  1. suppose that your DHT is high (tested via blood test)
  2. if you train hard for a week, then fin goes in the blood and you feel bad.
  3. If fin goes in the blood, your serum DHT must drop at this point. Period.

If this was true, we would have a lot of members that, across their blood work, show high and low DHT, alternatively. But this doesn’t happen, disproving your theory.

It’s not a simple theory. Do you realize that this behavior of “temporarily feeling better by running and then crashing” is shared with thousands of other males who never took propecia/duta/saw palmetto? The reason for them is that their hormones cortisol and thyroid hormones suck. Finding people with the same problem for whom we know the diagnosis is a much simpler theory.

Next time you want to do your “run for a week” test, take plenty of transdermal pregnenolone or transdermal progesterone, or, better yet, hydrocortisone (needs prescription). If you don’t crash after a week, then your theory is further disproved. (It is already disproved via the point above)

Now, we have a problem with logic. Are you saying that the following implication is true?
“if you feel better by working out but crash after a week, then it’s definitely because fin, which is stored in our fat, gets released in the blood?”
I feel that this implication is somewhat flawed…

#22

There is nothing wrong with Dutsuck’s theory; and, it really is quite simple. It was my theory 8 months ago; but, I go a bit further than Dutsucks; although, he did agree with me that there may be an element of drug/herb induced liver injury. If the finasteride residue is in the liver due to bungled metabolism, it does not necessarily follow that your DHT is being inhibited. For anyone to sit back and argue that adipose accumulations of finasteride when released into the bood stream, could function as Merck intended to inhibit DHT, is being extremely fanciful.

Trying to work off those 3 points is nonsense.

#23

If fin is still stuck inside us, but does not block DHT, how exactly is it hurting us?

#24

Whoa guys slow down…

M_81, fin/dut stuck inside of us (according to my theory) can still hurt us by possibly causing the organ or body part that it’s in to malfunction and not send out the proper hormones/enzymes that it should to do its job. For example, thyroid, adrenals, pituitary, hypothalamus, and testicles… these all send out hormones and enzymes.

Guys, I want to clarify some things and I do not want to explain this again:

  1. I kinda tested this twice.
    a) First test was 2-3 months ago. Test ran for a week. Pretty great improvements as detailed in my first post in this thread. Including vastly improved vision and mind-penis connection. These results lasted for the past 2-3 months. This was running in the morning.
    b) Second test, happened roughly 10 days ago unintentionally. This was weight-lifting in the afternoon on a completely empty stomach except for some coffee drink (this occurred only for 2 days, not a whole week). I sweated more during this test and I feel like this caused me to crash because a much larger dose of the drug that was stored poured into my blood, my liver couldn’t handle it, and I “crashed” again. I either crashed because of that or alcohol, but I don’t recall exactly when the alcohol was had and I’m pretty certain it was after the crash. Results of crash were much dryer scalp, forehead, blurry vision, and greater need for sleep. Only thing that currently remains is the dry scalp and forehead. Sleep fatigue and blurry vision have cleared up.

Results from the past 3 days of working out: Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. I didn’t want to say this now, I wanted to wait till later till I had more proof, but f-it, whatever:

  1. Much higher libido. Feel like I HAVE to get laid or I’m going to lose my mind.
  2. Head of penis is slightly fuller like the way it should be. Not perfect, but definite improvement. This is in no way my imagination and I’m VERY happy about this. Hasn’t been like this since before I got sick.
  3. Remember even though I took both Propecia and Dutasteride at separate times, I didn’t get sick from Propecia, just from Dutasteride(Avodart). Now DHT competes with Estrogen for dominance in the male body. You inhibit too much of DHT and Estrogen will run wild. In the past when I took Dutasteride (before getting sick) I had higher estrogen which caused very slight gyno, including nipples becoming darker, tingling sensation on right nipple, and both nipples also becoming wider and more oval in shape. I feel the same thing is happening now and I’m worried about continuing. Keep in mind, Dutasteride is WAYYYY more powerful than Propecia. I’m debating slowing down my test. The half life of Dutasteride is also way longer than Propecia as well: 5 weeks vs 7-8 hours. I don’t want to create a whole new bag of problems for myself with making my body estrogen dominant. Not sure what I’ll do.

Also, I feel like the vast majority of this is just due to the morning cardio and not weight-lifting in the afternoon. I lift weights to compensate for muscle loss from this drug plus I like to lift weights and go to the gym.

GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) is the maker of Avodart/Dutasteride. Merck is the maker of Propecia/Finasteride. My doctor called GSK today… there is no way apparently to check for traces of the drug in the blood (!@#!ing great!!!). All they said was what the half life would be. I called Merck for my physician and they sent over a bunch of paperwork to review (haven’t looked at it yet), and they said somebody higher up in their research team will contact me in 2 weeks or less.

ALSO, I realize now that I kinda !@#%ed up this test. I should have gotten a blood test before doing this test to show my testosterone and DHT levels. If I did, and I’m right about this drug going into my blood and blocking DHT as intended, then blood tests after the test would prove the drug is still in my body by displaying lower DHT levels… !@$# !@$# !@$#
I’m very surprised if both Merck and GSK don’t have a real way to test for this drug in the blood.

Also, keep in mind, I feel like a big factor is how each individuals liver can regenerate CYP3A4. I think some people can do it quickly, whereas other possibly very slowly. Some people on this board supposedly got sick from being on Propecia in just 4 days!!! I took that shit for YEARS 4+… no problems. I took Dutasteride for like 6 months and that got me sick. There should be something genetically among us to account for these differences in what it takes for somebody to get sick from these drugs and what allows someone to be healthy up to a certain point till they’ve had too much of it and then crash.

Dear Lord, please don’t let there by a ton of questions following this post.

#25

Well, to begin with: if the residue is still in the liver, I don’t think it necessarily has to be flushed out by exertion into the blood stream, for it to adversely affect us. I think it can harm us from within the liver itself. How else do we explain the persistency of side effects? If it needs to be flushed out for it to do its thing then we would only feel negative effects after intense exertion; and, given what we all know, that is not the case.

If it is in the liver, it has obviously undergone some form of modification (partly metabolized?): this is why I have said that you can’t expect it to be pushed out by exercise and for it to function per Merck’s plan as a strict DHT inhibitor. According to this theory, it has become toxic; and the toxicity is present (felt) despite its mobilization within the liver. “The classic view on the pathogenesis of drug-induced liver injury is that the so-called parent compounds are made hepatotoxic by metabolism (formation of neo-substances that react abnormally), mainly by cytochromes P-450 (CYP), with further pathways, such as mitochondrial dysfunction and apoptosis, also playing a role.” This is from one of the studies that I posted in my thread.

My final point and this is perhaps the most pertinent aspect of my theory: the liver is in a state of disrepair, and this stems from the initial problem with metabolism. Even if we dismiss, and I don’t think we should, the storage component, damage has more than likely occurred to the liver’s ability to metabolize hormones. This would explain all the erratic readings. It may also be something along the lines of Oscar’s theory.

#26

Hehe sorry man

This theory might explain bad hormone profiles, but, as we agreed, doesn’t explain good hormones with bad symptoms (see posts above). As awor said once, “the pathway i very simple: DHT --> RECEPTOR, nothing in between”. Therefore, people with high DHT levels, low estrogen, low SHBG, and low libido have either something wrong with their receptors or there is some other factor that doesn’t allow DHT to successfully bind to the receptor. The same applies to T.

Technically, you tested the effects of working out. How these effects tie to this theory is pure speculation.

How exactly does a liver problem (toxicity) affect the ability of androgens to successfully bind to the receptor? Also, if we had a liver problem, wouldn’t our liver enzymes be completely out of whack?

Also, how would this theory explain the following recoveries/improvements?
-JN. He increased, one by one, all hormones in the cortisol pathway, the thyroid hormones, and T
-Dury. He took thyroid medications, felt better; then he took clomid, and recovered.
-theDuck. He took biotin and felt better.
-correiovip. He took prednisone. He declared he’s recovered.

#27

M_81, accounting for why you have a good hormone profile, but are still displaying bad symptoms doesn’t so much have to do with whether or not my theory is correct as much as it has to do with a general scientific lack of knowledge as to how the human body works. The only way that my theory or any theory can fit your question is by making very large assumptions, and that’s not what we should do. The theory itself is already a good sized assumption in itself. To account for why you have good hormones yet are still sick shows that we don’t know everything regarding how the human body works. I personally think your issue has something to do with the brain, but I can’t prove it nor would I even know how to guess at that either.

Also, there was some guy on this forum, don’t remember his name, but he was saying how he didn’t understand how his hormonal profile was low, yet he had no problem getting an erection, whereas other people had better hormone profiles than him and they were completely impotent. This is a sign that its definitely more than meets the eye when it comes to how we assume we know everything about how the human body works… unfortunately we don’t know all the little details and that’s why we can’t explain/understand a lot of the crap that’s happening to us.

Regarding this quote of yours:
“Technically, you tested the effects of working out. How these effects tie to this theory is pure speculation.”
-I wasn’t testing working out in general. This is not pure speculation either. Look at some of my symptoms that have improved. When was the last time you heard of somebody’s vision getting better due to working out??? Or skin becoming less dry? Or testicles increasing in size? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Also, most people who work out during the morning are more fatigued at night typically, this was the exact opposite with me.

“How exactly does a liver problem (toxicity) affect the ability of androgens to successfully bind to the receptor? Also, if we had a liver problem, wouldn’t our liver enzymes be completely out of whack?”
-----I don’t know anything about how an androgen receptor functions so I can’t answer any questions regarding that. Also, I don’t know if/how we can test liver functions, but more specifically the CYP3A4 function. There are general liver function tests I believe, but we would need specifically that one.

Regarding this question:
“Also, how would this theory explain the following recoveries/improvements?
-JN. He increased, one by one, all hormones in the cortisol pathway, the thyroid hormones, and T
-Dury. He took thyroid medications, felt better; then he took clomid, and recovered.
-theDuck. He took biotin and felt better.
-correiovip. He took prednisone. He declared he’s recovered.”
-----I don’t know what any of their stories are so I can’t comment. I don’t spend that much time on this forum due to a large work-load. If you send me links at their profiles/stories I will look into it though. Dury I can understand why he got better: thyroid meds will help with non-sexual sides, and clomid will try to get the hypothalamus to work even harder due to reducing the negative feedback loop in order to push more hormones/enzymes out to create equilibrium in the body. Again, this is a band-aid type of treatment, and not trying to get at the source of the problems though.

I gotta learn how to use the quote function…

#28

Exactly how long have you been in this PDS/PFS state? I’m not familiar with your story at all. I really do suspect that it is more of a brain issue then anything else. It would explain as to why people with decent hormone profiles still suffer from side effects, and the fact that why almost every endocrine function is inflamed. Because if the hypothalamus is inflamed its going to inflame everything else. Hence my crazy TSH reading was like 6.48 because the pituitary gland is located next to the hypothalamus , that’s why a lot of ppls pituitary hormones are haywire.

The band-aide affect is interesting because M_81, i’m assuming that your hormone levels are normal now because of some type of hormone supplementation? If you go that route as he says, your not fixing the problem. You’re not fixing the root cause of the whole thing. Dr. C I believe has even stated that the whole PFS is really all about inflammation of the endocrine system, which is why he supplements TRT because it is good against inflammation. It would kind of explain as to why some ppl temporary recover from hormone supplementation only to find themselves back at square 1 a few months later…

I’m not saying his theory is right or wrong, personally I have no idea, but it’s an interesting one… I kind of look at it like there are just so many hormones out of whack on us guys that it would have to be a brain issue… IDK of any other disorder where so many hormones are out of whack unless you are born with hypogonadism or something.

#29

Hey man, sorry but I think that my point was not clear. If you work out and feel better (vision, sex, whatever) you found out that the following sentence is true:
“If I work out, I feel better”
I’m not doubting this. I know that this is true for you and many other people. What I don’t understand is how the previous sentence LOGICALLY implies that your theory is true. In other words, there can be other explanations for which working out helps.

Another, simpler way is to find males, who never took fin, that have exactly the same issues as us (same hormone profiles, same symptoms, same negative response to TRT or clomid, etc…). Then, let’s see how they get treated. There are a lot of people like this, some of whom are members of this board too.

Took 4 pills of propecia 1.5 years ago. Got blood test and liver test two days before starting my very short finasteride-based treatment. My SHBG slowly rose from 27 before fin to 53 one year after. I took clomid for 5 months starting 4 months off, but didn’t really help. The results I reported are from back then. Now, my hormones reflect how I feel: my free T is 40-50% lower than before fin, my E2 is very low.

Since my sex hormones are not the same I had before propecia, I don’t think it’s a brain issue. Since my liver hormones are the same or better than before propecia, I don’t think it’s a liver issue.

True, we have an inflammation. But it’s generalized, not localized. It’s caused by lack of cell repairs, which need testosterone and growth hormone to be carried out.

Yep, if you boost your sex hormones, you don’t address the root cause. But, as you point out, it may help with the inflammation (generalized, not of the endocrine system).

The only fact that people recovered by modulating their hormones show that the brain has nothing to do with our condition.

You guys should look at other forums too. You’ll see that some males, at some point in their 20s or 30s, age all of a sudden and develop the exact symptoms we have and similar hormonal profiles. For some of them, TRT or clomid do not work. In our case, for some unknown reason, propecia seems to have triggered this (or a very very similar) hormonal problem.

#30

Hey Guys,
Updates:

  1. I never, ever get pimples. Like once in a blue moon will I get one. This is before and after this PFS illness. One thing I noticed, that my dumbass didn’t realize was a sign, was that recently, while I’ve been working out, I’ve had a tendency to break out much more frequently. This might pertain to accutane sufferers, people with really dry skin like myself, and it probably has to do with hormonal fluctuations in general. I think this is even more proof that my theory is correct or at least on the right track.

  2. Don’t know if this is related or not and I’m shit scared because of this but one of my teeth is tingling and feeling week. I’ve never taken amazing care of my teeth but have excellent genetics (dental-wise), not one cavity yet. My tooth (upper jaw, front two teeth, the one on the right) now feels weird and doesn’t look that healthy. I’ve read about people here having issues with their teeth and now I’m worried that this testing might have done something to weaken my tooth. God I hope not. That’s like putting the last nail in the coffin. I feel like there might be a slight chance that whatever drugs I begin to mobilize, might move from one part of a body to another and cause some problems to possibly go away and for others to get started/worse. I have no idea, this is all speculation.

  3. HCG is made by the pituitary, which is controlled by the Hypothalamus. Some say that HCG controls weight loss. What if I’m right about the drug being in our fat, and HCG does control weight loss. If we can’t get adequate amounts of HCG, then we will have a harder time not only losing weight but also getting rid of this drug, which might further explain why its so difficult to heal. This could however be total b.s. I don’t know much about HCG. Any input on this would be GREATLY appreciated, but only from somebody who KNOWS what they’re talking about.

  4. Got slightly less than 6 hours of sleep last night, woke up pretty easily and this time my eyes weren’t dry. Normally I would need about 7-8 hours, still feel like crap, and my eyes would be dry (but only the first few minutes of the morning).

Toadstool, how long I’ve been in PFS I don’t really know. It took me a while to realize I was up shit creek. Plus I have other very important matters going on in my life that cause me to not focus on my health so much nowadays. To me, it has to do mostly with the brain because of the entire axis of how the Hypothalamus works with the Pituitary, Adrenals, Thyroid, and the entire negative feedback loop. It’s all one big interconnected system. Also the Hypothalamus controls the sweating. PLUS no other body part/organ (except the brain) can possibly account for our other issues like brain fog, memory loss, weird sleep, etc. BUT the brain CAN (either directly or indirectly) account for issues being wrong with other body parts and organs because its the one that sends out messenger signals to all the other body parts that we’re having issues with. Plus, anybody that gets better from Clomid could potentially be (not for sure) further proof that the problem is in the brain as well as Clomid messes with the negative feedback loop and tries to get more hormones/enzymes out of the brain.
NOTE: I just read that adrenal fatigue can effect aspects of sleep, memory, and brain fog. The source is NOT reputable. However, I still feel that the brain is still responsible for our issues with this drug.

M_81, “If I work out, I feel better” is logically true because you are causing little particles of random stuff to move in and out of your body’s cells as you are working out. IF you are burning calories and sweating, more stuff should be leaving cells then entering them. Hopefully some of it will be the damn drugs that I feel are still stuck within us. For a fat cell to shrink, it has to release some of its inner contents. I have this feeling that these drugs are causing some type of dam in the river effect I wrote about earlier that’s preventing hormones from adequately being released. Either that or its just a build up of toxicity within our cells that is causing these problems. That’s why I feel these drugs that are stored within us have to be drawn out of the body.

When you talk about people on this board that have similar symptoms as us that haven’t taken Finasteride and how they got better, I don’t follow this forum closely enough to know who got sick off of what and how they’re getting better. I got sick from Dutasteride, not Finasteride, even though I took both separately. If they can get treated in some way, and it doesn’t work for everybody else, which I’m sure people on here have probably tried, then I don’t know why they would be on the same forum as its a totally separate issue.

What are you trying to say here:
“Since my sex hormones are not the same I had before Propecia, I don’t think it’s a brain issue. Since my liver hormones are the same or better than before Propecia, I don’t think it’s a liver issue.”
—Aren’t your sex hormones “better” than before Propecia due to the Clomid you’re currently taking? You wrote that earlier on this same thread. Just because your hormone levels show healthy levels, doesn’t mean you’re not sick. CLEARLY YOU SHOULD REALIZE THAT BECAUSE YOU ARE SICK. WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENS TO A HEALTHY MAN WHEN HE SEES A HOT GIRL AND HE GETS AN ERECTION? YOU THINK THERE IS NO BRAIN-PENIS CONNECTION THERE??? YOU THINK ITS JUST HORMONES? SERIOUSLY??? If a girl touches your penis, your brain senses the feeling of touch through your nerve endings on your penis and responds with other signals telling your penis to achieve an erection. It’s not just hormones. This is a complex system we’re talking about.

When you write this:
"The only fact that people recovered by modulating their hormones show that the brain has nothing to do with our condition. "
—there are many things that hormones can and cannot do. Some hormones/enzymes effect the brain, others effect other parts of the body. Also, if I’m not mistaken, a lot of people here who’ve gotten sick, and used hormones, either got temporarily better just to get sick again later, or just took care of some of their symptoms via a “band-aid” like effect. It hasn’t fixed the root of the problem.

#31
#32

Bad rationale regarding the liver here. The liver is responsible to deactivation of sex hormones, metabolism of sex hormones and a large amount of aromastase activity. It’s not just your Liver function readings that pertain to the liver…

#33

Got some info from Merck… there is no way to test for Propecia in the blood either. Isn’t that fan-!@#$ing-tastic?

I really do think the only way to prove that it’s still in our bodies is by doing two blood tests: one before starting a workout routine to test Testosterone, DHT, and possibly Estrogen levels. The other would be sometime after a workout. How long after though I’m not certain. The drug being released should cause an up-tick in testosterone and a decrease in DHT.

I’m very certain this drug is still in our bodies. I say this based off of observations on my own body while doing these tests. I’m going to try to amp up my testing in order to further prove my point before I make any further and more detailed statements. Also, if I’m right, it will take longer for me to heal than other people because of Dutasteride’s long 5-week half life whereas most people on this forum used Propecia with the 7-8 hour half life.

Apart from the drug still being in our body (supposedly), there is still some key piece of the puzzle that 1. made us sick in the first place, and 2. is making it more difficult for us to heal ourselves. Like the normal pathway to healing must be blocked or more easily susceptible to “injury” if not already injured. That’s why I feel like this drug stopped CYP3A4 from working, built up the drug in our bodies, and then when we try to get it out from the fat into the blood and liver for excretion, it screws up whatever CYP3A4 has been rebuilt in the liver and screws us again. I feel that this answers two important questions below, placed in caps to indicate quite how important it is:

WHY GET SOMEWHAT BETTER JUST TO CRASH AGAIN? WHAT CAUSES THIS?
-In addition to what I wrote above, I feel like a big part of this is that the drugs move around from certain parts of the body and get “re-clogged” in other parts. Almost like passing through a bottle-neck, being freed, only to get stuck in another bottle-neck a while later. This could be totally wrong though.

WHY DID WE CRASH ONLY AFTER WE STOPPED TAKING THE DRUG? WHY NOT CRASH WHILE TAKING THE DRUG???
-Regarding this, I feel like the drug is building up in our bodies and not letting any out, until we stop taking the drug. Once we stop taking the drug, the body slowly starts to release the stuff and that’s what causes the sickness we feel now (theory). Like if you feed a fat kid over and over again, he’s just going to get bigger/fatter. Once you stop, that fat kid now has to use his own energy and has to release/burn fat/food that you fed it. Strange idea, but maybe it has some validity.

I really think this “not being able to sweat” thing might have a large part to contribute to why a lot of us can’t get better. Like for me, I was getting better and better, being able to sweat more and more, but then, for some damn reason, I just re-crashed. The re-crash itself isn’t that bad (for me), and it isn’t so much sexual as much as it is dry skin, lower energy, not able to sweat again, and slightly blurry vision. Now I’m just stuck with the dry skin and not being able to sweat. Energy and vision are fine again. The sweating either helps us get better and rid the drug from our bodies OR is a sign of our general health returning.

SOME RANDOM DATA:
“In fact, it turns out that only molecules that have a molecular weight smaller than 500 Daltons can reliably get through the Blood Brain Barrier.” (Daltons are measurement numbers used for molecular weight)
abc.net.au/science/articles/2003/11/10/981339.htm - 8th paragraph

The empirical formula of Finasteride is C23H36N2O2 and its molecular weight is 372.55.
drugs.com/pro/finasteride.html - 2nd paragraph

“The empirical formula of dutasteride is C27H30F6N2O2, representing a molecular weight of 528.5 with the following structural formula:”
dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/archives/fdaDrugInfo.cfm?archiveid=7950 - 2nd paragraph - 528 is pretty damn close to 500, so I’m considering it somewhat possible to pass. Note 1st listing says “reliably”, meaning there is a chance that larger molecules can pass as well.

For those of you that have no sensation/feeling of touch in your penis, this definitely has to mean that something is screwed up with the central nervous system and the brain. I didn’t even know that you guys can literally not FEEL anything if you touch your penises until I read some guys post about him not being able to feel anything and he can even stick something in his urethra and he won’t feel it. That’s nuts! Something in the nerves is DEFINITELY screwed up. I didn’t even know such an issue existed in this forum.

One thing to point out, since we all took varying levels of the drug before we got sick… if this stuff is stuck in us, maybe the amount of it stuck in each person will be a factor as to how long it will take for that person to heal. Maybe somebody with very little of it in their system will get better more quickly than somebody that’s taken the drug for much longer.

Please note: there are some men on this forum with estrogen dominance or high estrogen in general. If I’m right, and this drug starts exiting into the blood stream, even more DHT will likely be inhibited and chances are that you’re estrogen dominance issues might increase :frowning: I hope I’m wrong. Maybe take an estrogen inhibitor while testing?

Also, even though I feel like weight-lifting is not super important as compared to the morning cardio, I feel like it can drastically help because: it increases testosterone, builds muscle which boosts your metabolism, which increases your ability to further excrete drugs while working out in the future, and any calorie loss from an afternoon weight lifting routine might help clear the drug from your system too!!!

Another option instead of morning cardio that will probably be better for some of you guys:
Eat whatever you want for breakfast, but then don’t eat for like 7 to 10 hours after that. Go to the gym at night, do weight lifting or cardio at a pretty intense rate as this will also help get crap out of your body as you’re still burning fat and calories, do this for an hour, and then follow it up with a protein rich meal with carbs. This should help you not only get this crap out of your body, but also build muscle :slight_smile: Try to follow this routine 5 days a week, and maybe cardio on the weekends during the mornings when you’re not working. When I say intense weight-lifting, I mean you really do have to kick your own ass. No wussy workouts if you want to get better, otherwise you’ll probably come back to this forum and be all like “well I didn’t get better, that theory is b.s.”.

#34

Update:

  1. Okay so issue with tooth was a total fluke. Lasted less than a day.

  2. Forehead is no longer dry. Scalp appears to be getting better too. Doesn’t itch anymore, but still has flakes. I’m not so sure about my Lips. They still seem dry, but not as bad as before.

  3. Having some aches in my chest where the heart is. Not sure what this is but it’s freaking me out. Comes and goes. Could be glands forming underneath the skin/muscle… gyno. Nipples are slightly sore, but both have gotten darker/pinker and wider, a sign that estrogen has increased.

To me, # 3 is a big indicator that the drug is still in my body. This should not have happened otherwise. It didn’t happen during any of my other tests, or at least not by much. It happened a little when I crashed the second time, which goes back to me thinking about what I was saying about how too much of the drug empties out into the blood and the liver can’t handle it.

I don’t want to deal with gyno issues, as I’m sure you all can imagine as well. I’m going to cut back my cardio to strictly on the weekends, and continue lifting weights once a day on the weekdays in the afternoons… this !@$#ing sucks!

It pretty much took me 6 days of cardio and lifting to get to this state. Keep in mind, I got sick from Dutasteride, not Propecia/Finasteride. You guys should all be okay and shouldn’t have drastic estrogen increases as Propecia is nowhere near as strong as Dutasteride/Avodart. Now I’m really pissed! I know what to do to get better, but I can’t because there are other consequences and I have to slow down… THIS BLOWS!!!

I want to point out something again: for the vast majority of while I was taking these drugs, I was working out pretty hard. When I started slacking like over a year ago is when I got sick. I somehow knew that had a connection to this crap.

#35

Hey, can somebody give me some feedback on this thought/theory:

So many people on this forum have issues with syndromes like Cushing’s Syndrome, Hypothyroidism, and Adrenal Fatigue. One thing that I’ve noticed that really bothers me is the red/bloodshot eyes from something like Cushing’s syndrome. It got really, REALLY bad out of nowhere, then slowly got better, but never went back to the way it originally was and my eyes always have these red-ish veins appearing. I was thinking this: what if I’m right about messenger signals being blocked from being transmitted and received. If there is a negative feedback loop to the hypothalamus, and it reads how much cortisol there is, what if its ability to detect cortisol gets blocked, and it keeps telling the pituitary to release more ACTH to the adrenals and the adrenals just keep shooting out cortisol until there is none left? This might cause the red eye issue some of us have as well as possibly leading to adrenal fatigue as well as RT3 dominance.

telangiectasia: this is what I mean when I talk about the red-eyes issue

What do you guys think???

Other things to report: lips are much better, but chin is now somewhat dry…ha!

I’m really surprised this thread hasn’t gotten a lot of people commenting and testing out my theory. Either you guys are doing what I’m recommending without saying anything, or you all think I’m crazy and that my idea is too simple to work.

#36

Dutsucks, the problem is not with the theory itself (you need to consider drug induced liver damage); but, the claims that PFS can be recitified through exercise; and, given that many have been suffering for years - no one buys that it can be that simple. I’m just being honest.

#37

…or just plain crazy. Propecia has been banned by many sports governing bodies, and professional sportsmen have been banned becuse of its use. It is therefore possible to test if finasteride is still in a person (probably via urinary analysis). I suggest you spend some time finding out how to get yourself checked if you are even slightly serious about any of your ideas.

#38

Oscar, it is not that simple; the drug has obviously undergone modification via metabolism, and it has been years. I don’t think Dutsucks has a very severe case of symptoms: this is why he notices marked improvement with exercise.

#39

WOW… ok. I will try to see if I can test for Avodart/Propecia in my blood or urine. I doubt blood as both GSK and Merck said it’s not possible, but maybe urine.

I don’t see why you guys don’t see how it’s possible. Good scientific hypotheses are made based off of observations. I observed that the most common thing that men did to get better was to live a healthier lifestyle and to exercise. I then thought “WHY IS THAT?” and based my theory off of that observation. Whatever, hopefully I can prove this to you guys.

#40

Dutsucks, it has been modified, buddy - not to mention, it has been years. And, the amount in the blood would be miniscule. You guys are looking at this in a very dichotomous manner. It is not a matter of the black or the white, but the grey in the middle.