Simple Theory and my Simple Test Results

General Discussion
#1

Ok so here goes…

Hypothalamus, Pituitary, Thyroid, Adrenal Glands (Cortex), Testes and Liver are all interconnected in this theory. Starts with the liver via P450 enzyme, then goes to hypothalamus and cascades a horrible hormonal effect from there. Testes/Testicles are controlled by Pituitary which is controlled by the Hypothalamus. Adrenals and Thyroid are also controlled by Pituitary and Hypothalamus.

My guess is that these drugs inhibited the bodies ability to generate P450 to metabolize the drug and therefore couldn’t get kicked out of the body, and so instead, they started getting stored in the liver and the brain. I feel like it’s primarily in the hypothalamus of the brain that’s causing all of these problems. The hypothalamus pretty much controls the overall functionality of the pituitary, thyroid, and adrenals which cause all of the other non-sexual issues. Also the pituitary controls LH and FSH production which causes the testes to enlarge, and create testosterone. So if hypothalamus signaling is blocked/inhibited by these drugs, it will cause a cascade of problems throughout the entire body like what we’re suffering from.

Propecia and Avodart are both fat soluble (lipophilic) meaning they get stored in fat. Both are near the size of what will pass the brain-blood barrier to enter the brain. I forgot the exact numbers, but one is around 300 daltons, the other is around 500 daltons. Molecules smaller than 500 daltons can pass the blood-brain barrier according to what I’ve read. Also, two of the most fatty areas of the body are the liver and the brain.

Also, I took Propecia for years without any problems… when I would get off of it, I would be normal in about 2 weeks with ridiculously high libido. Propecia didn’t screw me up, but Avodart did and after taking it for a good amount of time. I also did loading doses on Avodart (much, much stronger than Propecia btw) and that didn’t cause me massive problems either, only when I was taking it for a prolonged period of time did these issues start to come about.

Trends I noticed with other people…
----A lot of people who got better were also eating healthy and working out apart from various other things that they did to get better, but living a healthier lifestyle was the main common thing that I saw. WHY WAS THIS COMMON? Also, I used to work out quite a lot, and when I stopped was when I seemed to have gotten sick. WHY?

----Also, some people got some improvement by eating broccoli… no idea why though and I haven’t tried this.

----Some people report problems/benefits with alcohol. WHY? Alcohol predominantly affects two areas of the body. The liver and the brain.

Also, what we are suffering from is definitely NOT androgen receptor mutation. Many people, including myself, have gotten off of the drug to get better, and then to crash about a week later. Androgen receptors don’t mutate in one or two weeks. It’s something that happens over time. Also, how would Androgen Receptor Mutation account for other crap like hypothyroid like symptoms and an inability to sweat? I think the cause of this crash is the fact that as we’re feeding our bodies these drugs, our bodies continue to store them, once we stop taking the drugs, we temporarily get better, but then our bodies slowly start to release the drugs that have been stored and we crash because of that… as if we’re still on the drugs. Also, if androgen receptor mutations were at play, people wouldn’t recover OR temporarily recover and get worse again either.

This ties into a lot of stuff like DHT and probably adiol-3g, but I don’t remember what I was thinking about how it did when I came up with this theory.

My thoughts on how to test this theory…
If this drug is indeed stuck in our bodies fat cells and is acting as a toxic agent within us, then we have to expel it from our bodies and get our cells to release the drugs back into our blood streams so hopefully what’s left of our P450 in our liver can metabolize this crap out of our system. The best way to expel objects from FAT cells is if you’re trying to lose weight and you know what you’re doing and how the body gains/loses fat. The body is more adept at burning through fat and releasing fat stores when blood sugar is very low (not having eaten for 7+ hours) and doing moderately intense cardiovascular activity like jogging, swimming, elliptical/stair-master at the gym, etc. This theory can be tested by going to the gym every morning, 5-7 days a week, on a completely empty stomach, and nothing to drink except for water. A carb light dinner the night before helps as well. Cardiovascular activity should be moderately intense and for 1 hour in length. Intense cardiovascular activity will burn through muscle instead of fat stores. Just try to get yourselves to around 160 beats per minute for your heart rate.

This is what I did for a week straight. I would have done it longer, but I’ve been very busy with other things. Also, in addition to going to the gym in the mornings, I would go in the afternoon as well to lift weights. Not only did the cardio in the morning for some reason give me a drastic bump in libido for that day, but my ability to put on muscle later on in the afternoon was drastically increased. It was as if I was on steroids… just nuts! The added muscle was a very welcome benefit.

PROBLEMS BEFORE TESTING:
Massive hair loss
Dry skin on scalp and forehead (t-zone of face), insane amounts of dandruff and scalp itch
Slightly shrunken testicles
Decreased libido
Penis: shaft is okay, but head does not fill up with blood and skin on shaft became wrinkled/loose
Very bad smelling flatulence (gas/farts)
Fat gain around mid-section
Massive muscle loss throughout body
Blurry Vision
Dry Eyes
Excessive Fatigue
Near zero ability to sweat
Never enough sleep - 8/9 hours, still feel horrible
Really bad headaches (to the point concentrating was difficult)

Also, I have low testosterone (600 instead of 1100 the way it used to be) low vitamin D, very high inflammation (erythrocyte sedimentation rate), and a host of other issues such as RT3 dominance and low amounts of T4 converting to actual T3. It’s been months since I’ve had a blood test done so I don’t know how I compare to my initial blood test since me testing this theory.

MY RESULTS AFTER 1 WEEK: -this test was done at least like 2 or 3 months ago

Massive hair loss - no change, ongoing
Dry skin on scalp and forehead (t-zone of face) - much better (up until second crash)
Slightly shrunken testicles - 50-100% bigger now
Decreased libido - much better
Penis: shaft is okay, but head does not fill up with blood and skin on shaft became wrinkled/loose - no change, ongoing
Very bad smelling flatulence (gas/farts) - much better
Fat gain around mid-section - slight improvement
Massive muscle loss throughout body - much better, now trying to regain
Blurry Vision - much better!!!
Dry Eyes - much better, not perfect though
Excessive Fatigue - somewhat beter
Near zero ability to sweat - somewhat better
Never enough sleep - somewhat better
Really bad headaches - much better, phlegm sensation gone too (read # 3 below)

Second crash…
Just this past week, I experienced a second crash. I’m certain it has to do with releasing more of this drug from my body’s fat stores into my system. During weight lifting in the afternoon, which I do way, way more often than running in the morning, I was sweating a good amount, which is unusual because this drug blocks the body’s ability to sweat. Within hours I had really bad dry scalp, blurry vision, and decreased libido all over again. Blurry vision has now cleared up. Libido is kinda better, but scalp is a f’ing nightmare… so dry and itchy. Pretty much I think the released drugs went back into the liver and got in the way of P450 production again in the liver, and that’s what caused a second crash.

I think everybody’s ability to test this theory will vary because a lot of people have various abilities to metabolize drugs and have their P450 produced. For some, it might be very easy to expel this drug (assuming I’m right), whereas for others, it might take a very long time as their P450 easily gets inhibited.

A quick couple of other things:

  1. Collagen production is controlled by cortisol (adrenal function). If this is impaired, you might be noticing those wrinkles on your face and penis. Excessive sex/masturbation will also likely cause wrinkles on your penis if your ability to produce collagen is inhibited because of poorly functioning adrenals.

  2. Your body’s ability to sweat, sleep, and regulate its temperature is regulated by the hypothalamus. That’s why I feel like a big part of it has to do with that area of the brain.

  3. Drying out of body. I feel like this drug really dries out the entire body. For me, one of the worst things I experienced was getting sick and having really bad congestion and phlegm/mucus in my sinuses. It’s not the first time I’ve had such a cold, except this time, the phlegm wouldn’t leave on it’s own. I went to an Ears, Nose, Throat doctor (ENT), and he couldn’t see in my sinuses without a CT scan (high radiation), but using a microscope, he said my sinuses appeared to be very inflamed. I tried antibiotics and crap to get this phlegm out of my sinuses as I believed at the time this was what was causing my massive headaches. Antibiotics didn’t do squat. I could feel the phlegm moving around in my sinuses whenever I tilted my head forward or from side to side, plus I could “smell” the decaying sensation too. It was disgusting. I thought that this stuff wasn’t coming out of my sinuses because the phlegm was also dry as was my scalp and t-zone/forehad of my face. The running in the morning not only made my skin somewhat more moist, but all this damn phlegm came out + blood and my headaches have now improved as well. Crazy or what?!?!??!

  4. Hair loss. There are two forms of hair loss that people on this forum experience: 1. natural thinning due to DHT, and 2. rapid hair loss due to hormonal imbalances. How to tell the difference: for natural thinning, if you look at the hair shaft, you will see it thinning from top to bottom. If due to a hormonal imbalance, you will see that the vast majority of hairs are the same thickness throughout the length of the hair. It is possible to have both of these occur at the same time. After getting sick I was just having the rapid, hormonal imbalance type of hair loss. After my little experiment with the running in the morning, I now have both types of hair loss, but still 80-90% of the hairs I lose are due to the hormonal imbalance. This has been on-going for months.

  5. Getting testosterone replacement therapy is not the brightest of ideas. If you’re in a boat with a hole in it. You fix the hole. You don’t go and grab a bucket to try to throw the water out of the ship faster than it can come back in. Fix the cause of the problem, not the sign of the problem.

If you have questions, private message me. Don’t leave a response on here expecting for me to read it as I rarely ever check this forum. Or ask a question on this thread and message me a link to it so I can answer for everybody to see.

#2

If the drug was stuck in our bodies, we would have low DHT. I know this because some people got a blood test while on fin and had low DHT.

Unfortunately for your theory, many people here have sky high levels of DHT, and yet present hypogonadism symptoms. This contradicts your theory.

#3

I’m not saying this stuff is necessarily still in our bodies inhibiting DHT. I’m saying it has created a toxic overdose type of effect and is blocking the signaling of certain parts of the body, most importantly from the hypothalamus.

I mean, lets say that the drug really does inhibit it’s own ability to metabolize itself in the liver via P450 (CYP3A4)… where do you suppose the drug’s go? They don’t magically disappear…

Also, my theory could still be wrong, no question about that, but my 1-week test has proven results for me, and they have lasted… been a few months now. I think other people should try at least doing a one week early morning running routine. What’s the worst they have to lose, you know?

BTW, running while having low blood sugar has been known to make a lot of people nauseous and faint. I’m lucky in that I can handle it no problem.

#4

Dutsucks, I concur with your theory; but I would add that there is some level of mild liver trauma due to the bungled metabolism of the drug. I believe it is a matter of mild toxicity coupled to liver trauma, which is not overly responsive to hormone supplementation. I have also noticed the paradoxical relationship with alcohol, and, thus the liver: sometimes I have gone out and had 6-7 drinks (I am not a big drinker) and felt my recovery take a big step backwards for 1-week due to the purported liver stress; on other occasions, I have gone out and done the same, and I actually felt myself improve quite a bit. I would go into the bathroom at the bar and my complexion would be very shiny. Most of the time my complexion is bone dry, so it is a very clear sign in my book. I also want to add that I also feel better after intensive exercise, but that alone will not cut it, I’m afraid.

#5

Not necessarily, given that for many it has been many years since the drug was active in the body as intended by Merck. With adipose accumulations, as this guy is arguing, it stands to reason that strict DHT inhibition may go out the window. Also, given that there may be an element of mild/moderate liver damage which does not necessarily show up on the tests, we are seeing people with a whole host of hormonal shortcomings, which could explain DHT readings that are high and low.

#6

One very important thing I forgot to mention (this is what happens when you rush):

So when I was taking Avodart, I felt my right nipple become tender and sore because of the increased estrogen. Avodart also caused my nipples to become darker from a peach-ish color to pink and they also widened a slight bit (both nipples), but the sore sensation was only the right nipple.

When I was doing my test, I also noticed the same soreness come back to my right nipple as if I was still on the drug.

NotWorthIt, yes I do agree that there might be something wrong with the liver, but I feel like it’s mostly just our bodies varying inability to metabolize such a drug, but I could easily be wrong.

The main point I’m trying to make is that we are suffering from a toxicity of a chemical that has entered our body and we need to flush it out of our bodies cells. Stuff comes in and out of body cells all the time, but if you’re in a food deprived state, chances are those cells will flush more stuff out than let stuff in, and that will hopefully also include any amounts of the drug that are still in the cells.

Either way, I’m re-doing this test as of today for another week or two to see what happens. Right now my scalp and forehead are extremely screwed up, super dry and flaky. It’s embarrassing going out into public like this.

#7

Dutsucks, this seems really interesting. Quick question- If I follow correctly, you did this routine for a week, and had all of the positive responses you listed above, and the positive changes lingered for 2-3 months. Is that correct? Then you crashed b/c (per your theory) the expelled drugs that were in the expelled fat cells got back into your system via the liver. Am I stating it correctly? Can you explain a bit more about why you think the drug got back into your system? I’m not quite following that. Why would the drugs go back to the liver?

Thank you very much! This does seem like a simple explanation, but one with a lot of possibility. I really hope to try this, but unfortunately my work lifestyle makes it very difficult (leave for work at 6:30am and not home till 8pm). But I’ll figure out a way- I really see potential here- especially b/c I too had been noticing that “healthy living” was a commonality in many of the recoveries. Please keep us posted!

#8

hey Nyer, so my train of thought is this pretty much:

  1. As we’re taking the drugs, a certain amount gets metabolized out of the body via the liver, but certain amounts of the drug, also block the production of the enzyme that metabolizes this drug. Leftover drugs then slowly start building up in fat cells and as time goes on, the livers ability to metabolize this drug (and others I guess) is gone.

  2. This enzyme in the liver slowly has to build back up, but has difficulty I guess due to the drug still being in our body.

  3. As working out is done and the fat cells release these drugs, they have to be metabolized by the liver again, there is no other way out for the drugs. So lets say that enzyme in the liver is back up to like 25% of where it used to be at before taking these drugs, part of these drugs will be able to use that 25% to get out of the body, and the rest will re-inhibit that enzyme that made that 25% and those drugs just circulate back around and go back into the fat cells in the brain and liver.

I feel like this is what made my second crash because I was working out really hard for this past week (lifting, not cardio, but still on an empty stomach), sweating a lot, and then I had a second crash, which mostly is dry skin all over my head as well as a little bit of blurry vision again (vision now back to normal).

I friggin bet that somewhere “up the chain of command” the function that controls this enzyme in the liver to be made is in the adrenals, pituitary, thyroid, or hypothalamus, and the fact that the drug settles in the hypothalamus region and effects signaling might even prevent the liver from working properly as well (this is a complete guess though).

The problem with the liver is why the drug is still in our body. The drug not being able to get out through the liver and stuck in our brain is what’s causing all of these horrible problems, both sexual and non-sexual.

I hope to get blood tests done this week or next to see if I can find traces of the drug in my blood after working out. That will be interesting.

I hope this post is clear as I’m having a hard time explaining it myself :slight_smile:

#9

Thanks DutSucks- that does make sense. I appreciate the explanation.

But just to clarify- did you work out for 1 week and then enjoy 2-3 months of better symptoms, or have you been working out (and releasing the fat cells and hopefully the liver enzyme doing its thing) all along? (I realize you DID work out this past week, and experienced a crash- but I’m asking about the time before that, between initial improvement, and this crash you experienced).

Also (my apologies in advance if this is an incredibly dumb question, but…) do you think this mechanism could hold true even if your body didn’t have a lot of fat cells? Theoretically it could, right? I’m really quite slender and in decent shape, so I’m just wondering about the # of fat cells that there even there to lose (if they do hold trace amounts of the drug).

Finally - are you getting a test to check your bloodstream for trace amounts of finasteride? Why, theoretically, would any show up (even if its there), if its being stored in fat cells? Or are you hoping to catch the finasteride immediately post-work out when it would be traveling from the blood stream into the liver? Wow, what a coup that would be if you could actually prove so easily that the drug remains in your system! Please keep us posted. Thanks again.

#10

Just to clarify, you are saying that

  1. the drug remains in our body because it can’t be metabolized
  2. the drug that is still in our body does not do anymore what it used to do (inhibiting DHT), but does something else (messing with hypotalamus and possibly other components of the endocrine system)

Is this correct? If so, how did the drug change its behavior exactly (i.e. please explain point 2 above)? And would the same concept apply to those who took saw palmetto?

Thank you

#11

Nyer, correct. For 1 week, roughly 2-3 months ago, I worked out both morning and night. Running in the morning and weight lifting at night. I did this to test my theory. Apart from that, I normally just lift weights 3-4 times a week, every week. The results from that 1 week have lasted for 2-3 months.

Yes, even if you’re skinny, the drug can probably get into whatever fat cells you have. It’s also not so much your actual body-fat, but its the fatty areas of the brain and liver that count most likely. It is however possible that a person with more fat has a higher chance of becoming really ill from these drugs, but who knows. Like me for example, I’m nowhere near as sick as most people on this forum, but I started out pretty skinny when I started taking Dutasteride too. I’ve gained weight recently… probably due to not taking care of my health and side effects of this drug/sickness as well though.

Blood tests… I have to get one anyway because I want to check all my other hormonal markers like erythrocyte sedimentation rate, testosterone, thyroid hormones, etc… so while I’m at it, hell check for Finasteride and Dutasteride too. I have taken both drugs in the past, and if they find traces after a morning run, hell that’ll be “interesting”. Argh… I hate needles though. It might be a while before I actually get around to getting this blood test done… I don’t want to go into the details of explaining why.

M_81, #1… correct, if it can’t be metabolized, I would assume it finds somewhere in the body to “chill and hang out”. Regarding # 2, the drug didn’t change it’s behavior… if I’m right, and if it can be released back into the blood stream, then it will still inhibit DHT once its released. Picture the hypothalamus like a river, flowing with its hormones/enzymes. This drug might be slowly building a dam in that river blocking the flow of those hormones/enzymes that should be normally flowing at a certain rate. This cascades throughout the entire body and screws everything up.

Also, as I mentioned before, I noticed a bump in strength and ability to put on muscle during that one week of testing during my afternoon workouts. If this drug was exiting my system and preventing DHT from forming, there would be a sudden bump in testosterone, which could lead to the results I was feeling of increased strength and ability to put on muscle. Does this make sense?

Regarding Saw Palmetto… I didn’t look into this before, but did now. It is also lipophilic = dissolves in fat (as compared to hydrophilic = dissolves in water). Although I don’t know what Saw Palmetto can possibly do on the liver enzymes.

Also, don’t know if I mentioned this before or not, but to me the smoking gun of what makes the hypothalamus the main focus is the fact that a lot of us have issues with not being able to sweat. The hypothalamus controls this as well as maintaining equilibrium with the pituitary, thyroid, and adrenals.

Any thoughts?

#12

It definitely begins with bungled metabolism, and it cascades form there. The incomplete metabolism leads to excess storage; but the important point I believe, is that there is some level of mild/moderate liver trauma; and, given that the liver is the hormonal control centre of the body therein lies the problem. If it’s just a matter of storage, and the drug is still doing it’s thing as it were: how do we explain all the other oddities like bent/mishapen peckers, for example?

#13

Obviously the men with Peyronie’s disease, I don’t know exactly how that happened. Obviously it has something to do with the hormones being screwed up. It’s probably due to something with DHT as that causes the sexual differences between men and women, but how exactly, I do not know. I never bothered thinking about this as this didn’t happen to me.

BTW, I will try to go out of my way and have that blood test done this week. It would be good to know if that stuff is really still circulating in the blood. Just have to make sure the lab can test for that first.

#14

That sounds like a good idea; but, I know that people who have been messed up by Isotretinoin, have had their vitamin A/13-cis-retinoic acid levels measured (I doubt you could measure liver stores without surgery, or, at the very least biopsy), and nothing noteworthy was found. Please keep us updated.

#15

DutSucks,

Thanks for the prompt response.

If it still inhibits DHT, why do many of us have high DHT?

Also, forget for a second about the hypothalamus. There are people on this board that, thanks to hormone therapy, override whatever the hypothalamus commands. They have excellent hormone levels (T, DHT, E2, SHBG, Prolactin), but still suffer from the most horrendous side effects. How does this theory explain this fact?

#16

M_81, You might have high DHT because the drug isn’t in your blood to bind with 5ar and inhibit DHT. It is being stored in your fat. If I’m right, and you workout and the fat slowly starts to release the drug, your DHT formation will also begin to become inhibited again as the released drug will bind with 5AR when it starts pushing into the blood stream.

Regarding this quote:
“Also, forget for a second about the hypothalamus. There are people on this board that, thanks to hormone therapy, override whatever the hypothalamus commands. They have excellent hormone levels (T, DHT, E2, SHBG, Prolactin), but still suffer from the most horrendous side effects. How does this theory explain this fact?”

-Please elaborate on what side effects remain.
-Please elaborate on which particular hormones are excellent.

I feel like most people might not know the difference between good and bad hormone levels for their body. Like my testosterone is in the “normal range” of 600, but over a year ago I was at 1100. That’s almost a 50% drop, and def. not normal. Maybe normal if I was like 60 or 70, but not for a 28 year old male.

Also, I’m not a fan of hormone therapy because its like putting a band-aid on the problem and treating it instead of working on curing the issue. It is however a good idea because so many men are suffering such horrible side effects that even putting a band-aid on it is a welcome treatment compared to nothing at all.

One thing I’ve been meaning to mention… the human body is incredibly capable of healing itself. You can find people get mangled in car wrecks and they survive, get better, and get for the most part back to normal. They’ll have massive scarring on certain areas that they got injured, but they get better. The body often times cures itself of cancer as well before a person even finds out they have cancer. Sometimes people get diagnosed with cancer and are told “hey, you’re going to die” and somehow miraculously the body just heals itself. If this drug is still in us, and it has gotten in the body’s natural way of expelling the drug, this explains why the body is having such a hard time healing itself.

#17

That may be true, but I think I have an idea of good hormone levels, because I tested my T and Free T two days before starting propecia.

2 days before propecia:
Free Testosterone 115 (47-244)
Estradiol unknown
DHT unknown
Prolactin unknown

I was as horny as a dog

6 months after stopping propecia, on clomid:
Free Testosterone 176 (47-244)
Estradiol 27.5 (10-42) – good
DHT 765 (106-719) – very good
Prolactin 7.4 (2.1-17.7) – good

I was basically impotent

It really seems that, on paper, I was better off on clomid than before propecia, but symptom-wise I was not. My symptoms on clomid were basically all the mental sides in the list, all the sexual sides in the list, and fatigue.
For your theory to hold, it should also explain why my androgen receptors were not responding to these very good hormone levels.

#18

Hey M_81,
I don’t think its possible for my theory to explain why you still have sides because we don’t know EXACTLY how the human body works. Yes those 4 hormones are important, but they’re probably not everything. There’s a whole lot of stuff that we don’t know about yet. Chances are that if we did know more about the sexuality of a man, and how his brain works with those hormones and others in greater detail, maybe then would I be able to show how my theory could account for your situation. Presently though, it cannot, but that doesn’t make my theory false by default either though.

I don’t really get what the big deal is. It’s such a simply theory, it makes a whole hell of a lot of sense (to me at least), and its easy to test too. It’s also a lot better than taking other drugs in order to treat yourself.

#19

BTW, called Glaxo Smith Kline, they won’t tell me how to test for Dutasteride in my blood since I’m not a doctor… HA! The local blood lab doesn’t know how to test for that stuff either. I now have to get a doctor to call GSK.

#20

Frustrating. Anyway, keep us posted how this week goes, and what you notice regarding your 2nd crash (improvements, etc.).