Oscar, it is not that simple; the drug has obviously undergone modification via metabolism, and it has been years. I don’t think Dutsucks has a very severe case of symptoms: this is why he notices marked improvement with exercise.
WOW… ok. I will try to see if I can test for Avodart/Propecia in my blood or urine. I doubt blood as both GSK and Merck said it’s not possible, but maybe urine.
I don’t see why you guys don’t see how it’s possible. Good scientific hypotheses are made based off of observations. I observed that the most common thing that men did to get better was to live a healthier lifestyle and to exercise. I then thought “WHY IS THAT?” and based my theory off of that observation. Whatever, hopefully I can prove this to you guys.
Dutsucks, it has been modified, buddy - not to mention, it has been years. And, the amount in the blood would be miniscule. You guys are looking at this in a very dichotomous manner. It is not a matter of the black or the white, but the grey in the middle.
Notworthit, you might be right, you might be wrong, but it’s worthwhile for me to do testing anyway. Besides, I’m VERY certain I’m right based off of my research and observations, contrary to what everybody else thinks I guess.
Below are two random resources that talk about drugs going into the brain causing issues, as well as getting stored in body-fat. Not directly talking about Propecia/Avodart though, but those are fat-soluble drugs too.
resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=w03j12712718g457&size=largest
–An interesting article talking about Central Nervous System (CNS) side effects with beta-blockers. Includes sexual sides.
–note: hydrophilic means soluble in water; lipophilic means soluble in fat
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AHormone_replacement_therapy_(trans
–Under “Casodex warning” section, 3rd paragraph, you will see this: “BTW half-life is somewhat misleading when dealing with lipophilic drugs. Since they are stored in fat cells, food intake can significantly affect serum concentrations. – Kiral 11:21, 22 May 2006 (UTC)”
–I agree with the quote above and knew this well before I had PFS issues. I intentionally spiked my insulin at the time of taking Dutasteride and Finasteride by having sugary drinks thinking that I would get more of the drug into my body to help prevent hair loss…yeah, that worked but not the way I had hoped.
I appreciate your persistence; but, my point is that I don’t want the theory scoffed, for lack of a better word, because we can’t find significant levels of the drug in serum tests. I am happy for you to attempt to find it; but, if you don’t, don’t abandon the theory, is my point.
Dutsucks, fwiw, I’m interested in your theory, but am not able to put in that kind of exercise right now b/c I leave the house at 6am for work, and don’t return till 8pm. But still… will be following this and see how things progress.
So your sexual sides feel better at this point? As in, is your libido back, even post–re-crash?
Notworthit, don’t worry, I’m not going to give up on my theory, even if it can’t be found in the blood/urine.
Nyer, my sexual sides have never been super bad the way that they are for some/most people on this forum. Like at its worst, I would have to use a good amount of effort to get myself erect. On its best, I would be ready to rip a girl apart and be going crazy.
Right now my “state of libido” is pretty decent, but not perfect. Like I’m happy I can get aroused just by watching porn and not having to touch myself. That to me is a very good sign. Also, the fact that there is more blood flow going to the head of my penis as it hasn’t been like that for a year. Semen volume and consistency is whatever, and needs improving. Testicles could be better. The second crash didn’t do much to me sexually. It was mostly just dry scalp, face, lips, and blurry vision. All of which has for the most part improved again.
DutSucks I don’t know how I can relate it to your theory but I have had saw palmetto’s nasty burps even after stopping for a long time ( I continued to have burps for 6 months after stopping). I know it is unbelievable but I did have them.
I know Saw Palmetto is also fat soluble. I do not know its molecular weight to see if it can pass the blood-brain barrier… I tried to look it up but didn’t find anything.
I kinda had the same experience with having really bad flatulence from Dutasteride which it took me a long time to realize it was still because of the Dutasteride, but it went away with just a little bit of exercise. I had this problem for a long time after being off of Dutasteride. Not the biggest of problems to be worried about as compared to the other issues, but still, glad its gone.
A few more updates:
I’m having a terribly hard time finding labs that can check either my blood, plasma, or urine for Dutasteride. I’ve only found 1 or 2 that detect Finasteride in the blood plasma, but I’m trying to find one that will detect Dutasteride. I’ve contacted like 10-12 labs so far, including some of the biggest in the country. One lab said that they might be able to “build a test” for it, but it’ll be very expensive.
Accutante/Isotretinoin Molecular Weight 300.435 (small enough to pass through blood-brain barrier) and lipophilic (dissolves in fat).
Spironolactone Molecular Weight 416.57 (small enough to pass blood-brain barrier) and also lipophilic (dissolves in fat).
“Research has also shown spironolactone can interfere with the effectiveness of antidepressant treatment. The drug is actually (among its other receptor interactions) a mineralocorticoid (MR) antagonist, and has been found to reduce the effectiveness of antidepressant drugs in the treatment of major depression, it is presumed, by interfering with normalization of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis in patients receiving antidepressant therapy”
----from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spironolactone -3rd paragraph under “Adverse Effects and Interactions”
Of the short list of people that are listed under the recoveries section, the users below somewhere in the post mentioned working out and eating healthier. Note that eating healthier also notes reduced caloric intake which likely means burning fat.
japanther - raw food diet, exercise
Big Softie - working out and healthier lifestyle, plus random supplements
HT55 - working out a lot, but also used nolvadex, hcg, and clomid
Mitch - worked out and ate healthier food
Tom43 - posted by user boston - walking, eating healthy, gaba, htp, and other supplements
ithappens - athlete, took GABAprentin and got better due to improved sleep… wondering if working out had an effect… not likely though as he felt immediate results from GABAprentin
Guru20 - took roughly 2 years to get better, worked out 3-4 hours per week also took Green Tea (no coffee), GABA and DIM supplements, was working out both when he was healthy and when he got sick
MLevyHolden - worked out everyday, ate healthier, MACA extract and TRIBULUS TERRESTRIS
Reason - tried all different things and supplements including zinc, viagra, broccoli and veggies, eating healthier, all sorts of exercises: punching bag, swimming
Many substances either increase CYP3A4 function (inducers), and many things lower CYP3A4 function (inhibitors):
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYP3A4 - check bottom of page for a list of them.
Ketoconazole, a strong inhibitor of CYP3A4 function, is a drug/shampoo that many hair-loss suffers use to help prevent hair loss. I myself have applied this shampoo (2% variation) to my scalp for 10-15 minutes every time I shampooed and also noticed some side effects from it like dry eyes and a weird taste in my mouth (alkaline?). This study shows its effects on a drug’s absorption levels:
resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=r307129371lg0066&size=largest
Also, a lot of other drugs like antibiotics such as z-pack can also interfere with the function of CYP3A4. I also read that some men just have different amounts of CYP3A4 in their body, some with less, others with more. This might account for what happened to us. Either that or we really screwed up our CYP3A4 synthesis. Also, on the wikipedia link, there is this line that states that CYP3A4 is also found in the brain?!?
One thing that’s an inducer is Saint John’s Wart. I’m thinking of taking it to see if it allows me to do more running with less estrogen dominance as it will reduce the amount of DHT being inhibited by Dutasteride which I believe will flow into my blood if I do a lot of running.
I hope all the randomness in this post makes sense.
Is this theory similar to Oscars? It would seem to be barking up the same tree.
One thing i would say is that there are more recoveries but Mew hasn’t bothered to put them in the recovery section despite my requests:
Trickster: hCG and “Doc trazodone”
f**kfin: Synthroid
1750: arimidex and “AIFM” (some topical AI)
IMO proof that everyone requires different treatment plans. Healthy living and time being the biggest common thread though.
I haven’t checked Oscar’s theory in detail but I’m pretty sure its not the same thing.
Here’s another link I forgot to post talking about drugs that can effect CYP3A4 and its effects on other drugs:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18333864
Well obviously they are different but both seem to mention the CYP3A4 enzyme and it’s involvement. Read his outline of it here: musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?3611-Official-Finasteride-Thread&p=140245#post140245 or indeed on his own thread here.
You think fin is still in our bodies. This is almost surely wrong. Our bodies still metabolising as if fin is still in the body is much more possible imo (Oscar’s theory).
A lot of the recoveries Dutsucks mentions aren’t legit in my opinion. Some are natural recoveries, others guys whose symptoms weren’t all that bad. This is a problem in alot of theories which cite stories from the recovery section.
About the only recovery story from full blown PFS I’ve read are Dustin (which still has holes in it for me) and maybe labrea, though corrieovip’s is significant. Hopefully JN will keep going but he didn’t have fog or severe physical problems.
I don’t think there is any real recovery, they just managed to live. labrea is back here and his recent posts show he is better than before but it just that. He is still dragging.
sps
Wrong
Some people do recover. But someone with more wide-ranging sides will probably be less likely to make a full recovery. People with violent crashes seem to ahve less ability to recover.
I recall JN saying that he was mentally, sexually and physically exhausted when he crashed - at least to me his case seems special that his recovery was from cripled to full health? Granted that IF I UNDERSTOOD in his case he has high total testo from the beginning with. I can’t be sure and the only way to make sure is either ask him directly (maybe he won’t come back to answer but you could try?) or read his topic carefully or… get access to old yahoo forums and read how his story started?
There’s lot more information of the recovery stories than people reliaze in the old yahoo board and no doubt it should be investigated at some point.
Don’t say that pal. 
I’m trying to keep up the spirit you know. I might have crashed nastily but might as well drop dead if i give up with this or keep going with this, especially considering how my low testo and adrenal fatigue will eventually make my life much worse.
Besides, as much this might infuriate somebody, i don’t think people turn over every stone with this condition as they can. i don’t wonder if this is the case with many or some, considering how much information or ways even i have had to absorb/find out. Then there is the possibility that some people are somehow permanently cripled, ergo studies should be conducted etc yadda yadda.
Nevertheless the point is to never ever to give up!! Hope doesn’t come free so you better take good care of what spiritual strenght you have. Conserve your hope, always look up no matter what the pinch you’re in.
This is something the members in this forum should reliaze or keep recalling time to time. Lot of recovery stories began from square one as we did but after a long bout of several years somehow rolled that stone of sysuphus to the top. Have some faith.
I’m sorry if i “propeciahelp-derailed” the issue in hand but this… has bothered me in this board (the permeating, suicidal/depressing pessimism) and i felt it’s important to know that bit. It’s VERY important. Being somebody who have happened to beat bad suicidal depression and self-loathing and (supposedly permanent thing) really bad tinnitus and hypothyroidism prior to finasteride at a young age, lot of times seeing no way to hope or recovery, praying every day that your fucked up hearing is just a bad dream…
I have had to learn at relatively young age what Hope means. Sorry if this sounds pompous or overly… proud??? but i won’t take back my words about this. Go outside, enjoy the nature, forget this forum and dumb condition for that time being and be happy for being alive. Realize that you still exist and your family and friends are alive and well. Happy days/Have a great day everyone! 
Hey guys, also thought I should link to this post:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4526&p=36163#p36163
The reason I mentioned those other recoveries is not to say that for certain they got better because of working out and eating a healthier lifestyle, but that was a common theme between all of them.
Also, I feel like anybody who gets better naturally might have had the drug slowly come out of them over time, like over the course of years or something if they didn’t do anything to speed it up.
Ok so I could not find any lab that can test for dutasteride so I’m kinda screwed in that regards. Nonetheless, I’m still certain that it’s the drug still being in our bodies that’s f’ing us up. I don’t really have to prove it to myself anymore cause I’ve seen the results of what happens to me when I work out and even well after I’ve stopped, but I know you guys still think my theory is silly. I’m going to test for Propecia though as there are labs that can test for that, plus I took that as well, but I know its the DUT that screwed me up. Heck, for all I know, it could even me the active metabolites of this drug that are stuck in us. I know it has to be active because I’m seeing DHT reduction, estrogen dominance, and a testosterone boost when I try to flush this stuff out of me. That’s EXACTLY what would happen if I ingested this stuff orally again. One thing I forgot to mention is that in my previous workouts/tests… I noticed randomly, much later on in the day, a single drop of breast milk come out of my right nipple. It just happened randomly and I noticed by the feeling of my shirt being wet. I would have blown it off completely, but I noticed it was exactly where my nipple was. This happened twice over two separate tests that each were like a month apart from each other.
One thing I want to make very clear: How you workout is very important! It has to be when your blood sugar is very low so you can easily burn through fat and release the drug! Ideally doing some form of cardio for an hour after not having eaten for like 7-9 hours!
I do think that its very possible for the drug to be mobilized and get stuck in other areas of the body. Like I don’t know how I got varicocele all of a sudden. Plus I feel like I’m now having issues with my teeth and gums…they ache. Also, my left nut aches from the varicocele (or the mobilized dut) and keeps changing shape on its own (not my imagination). I REALLY hope this shit goes away on its own. I think my varicocele is caused by poor kidney function caused by these drugs. I frequently have cloudy urine and blood tests have shown that I have kidney issues/damage. The kidney is affected by the adrenals via aldosterone. I know my cortisol levels are severely lacking.
I think these drugs act as a form of neurotoxin when they stay in our system/brain:
“They may include limb weakness or numbness, loss of memory, vision, and/or intellect, uncontrollable obsessive and/or compulsive behaviors, delusions, headache, cognitive and behavioral problems and sexual dysfunction. Individuals with certain disorders may be especially vulnerable to neurotoxins.”
-first paragraph, last line: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotoxicity
cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Narconon/junkscience.htm#fats
-a negative review trying to disprove L Ron Hubbard’s theory that drugs such as LSD are stuck in the body. I think L Ron Hubbard was partially right, but partially wrong at the same time. It’s how you go about removing the drugs from your body that counts. L Ron Hubbard has it wrong. You have to burn the fat by running when your blood-sugar is super low.
zeenews.com/news701365.html
-article talking about how Vitamin D helping us to metabolize drugs… could be that the drug is stuck in our brain and we can’t get it out because we all have very low Vitamin D levels due to our parathyroid not working to create/release the enzyme 1-α-hydroxylase
Also, regarding this thread about people using SSRIs having the same issues as us:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1457
Paroxetine/Paxil inhibits itself via CYP2D6
Sertraline inhibits itself via CYP2B6
Fluoxetine/Prozac also inhibits itself via CYP2D6
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9292832 - Yohimbine being somewhat effective for these people
paxilprogress.org/forums/showthread.php?t=52229 – same issues as us: adrenal, low t, high rt3, sleep apnea/issues
There have been reports of people here experiencing benefits from exercising as well. BTW, Paxil is the worst offender among SSRIs and persistent side effects. Apparently its pretty damn bad!
More links that show the symptoms of people who took SSRIs:
health.groups.yahoo.com/group/SSRIsex/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSSD
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSRI_discontinuation_syndrome
I plan on continuing my morning running to flush this crap out once I get an anti-estrogen and a CYP3A4 inducer! I want to go back to living a normal life ASAP. Hopefully start running again sometime this week.
CYP3A4 inducers that will help the liver create the enzyme to get this crap out of our bodies once its been mobilized into the blood stream:
Rifabutin (weak inducer), Rifapentine (unknown strength), Rifampicin – goes into brain (strong inducer), has hepatotoxic (liver-toxicity) effects
-these are antibiotics and can have a negative impact on your liver but they’re better than taking the other CYP3A4 inducers… those are SSRIs and other drugs that mess with your brain. Don’t take St. John’s Wort either. That is practically an SSRI and can !@#% you up…I’ve read about persistent side effects with it too.
I also plan on taking an anti-estrogen as either a SERM (selective estrogen receptor modulator) to block the estrogen receptor or an aromatase inhibitor (blocks the formation of estrogen). I do NOT want gyno. I cannot stand the little bit I currently have. Having more will make me go nuts!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_legends_about_illegal_drugs#.22Flashbacks.22_due_to_release_from_fat_cells
-talks about how people get the effects of drugs again long after they stopped taking them. They make the assumption its from “runners high”. Apparently the person that made that assumption probably never had a runners high or used LSD. I know I’m not getting runners high. For one thing, I’m not working out that hard. Also, runners high doesn’t last for days on end, increase your testosterone, make you lactate, and give you gyno. Also, these “flashbacks” and “drug pockets” have to be explained somehow! SOMEHOW, there has to be an explanation for it. It can’t just happen for no reason. There has to be a reason for it.
You’ve got the right idea…