Bad rationale regarding the liver here. The liver is responsible to deactivation of sex hormones, metabolism of sex hormones and a large amount of aromastase activity. It’s not just your Liver function readings that pertain to the liver…
Got some info from Merck… there is no way to test for Propecia in the blood either. Isn’t that fan-!@#$ing-tastic?
I really do think the only way to prove that it’s still in our bodies is by doing two blood tests: one before starting a workout routine to test Testosterone, DHT, and possibly Estrogen levels. The other would be sometime after a workout. How long after though I’m not certain. The drug being released should cause an up-tick in testosterone and a decrease in DHT.
I’m very certain this drug is still in our bodies. I say this based off of observations on my own body while doing these tests. I’m going to try to amp up my testing in order to further prove my point before I make any further and more detailed statements. Also, if I’m right, it will take longer for me to heal than other people because of Dutasteride’s long 5-week half life whereas most people on this forum used Propecia with the 7-8 hour half life.
Apart from the drug still being in our body (supposedly), there is still some key piece of the puzzle that 1. made us sick in the first place, and 2. is making it more difficult for us to heal ourselves. Like the normal pathway to healing must be blocked or more easily susceptible to “injury” if not already injured. That’s why I feel like this drug stopped CYP3A4 from working, built up the drug in our bodies, and then when we try to get it out from the fat into the blood and liver for excretion, it screws up whatever CYP3A4 has been rebuilt in the liver and screws us again. I feel that this answers two important questions below, placed in caps to indicate quite how important it is:
WHY GET SOMEWHAT BETTER JUST TO CRASH AGAIN? WHAT CAUSES THIS?
-In addition to what I wrote above, I feel like a big part of this is that the drugs move around from certain parts of the body and get “re-clogged” in other parts. Almost like passing through a bottle-neck, being freed, only to get stuck in another bottle-neck a while later. This could be totally wrong though.
WHY DID WE CRASH ONLY AFTER WE STOPPED TAKING THE DRUG? WHY NOT CRASH WHILE TAKING THE DRUG???
-Regarding this, I feel like the drug is building up in our bodies and not letting any out, until we stop taking the drug. Once we stop taking the drug, the body slowly starts to release the stuff and that’s what causes the sickness we feel now (theory). Like if you feed a fat kid over and over again, he’s just going to get bigger/fatter. Once you stop, that fat kid now has to use his own energy and has to release/burn fat/food that you fed it. Strange idea, but maybe it has some validity.
I really think this “not being able to sweat” thing might have a large part to contribute to why a lot of us can’t get better. Like for me, I was getting better and better, being able to sweat more and more, but then, for some damn reason, I just re-crashed. The re-crash itself isn’t that bad (for me), and it isn’t so much sexual as much as it is dry skin, lower energy, not able to sweat again, and slightly blurry vision. Now I’m just stuck with the dry skin and not being able to sweat. Energy and vision are fine again. The sweating either helps us get better and rid the drug from our bodies OR is a sign of our general health returning.
SOME RANDOM DATA:
“In fact, it turns out that only molecules that have a molecular weight smaller than 500 Daltons can reliably get through the Blood Brain Barrier.” (Daltons are measurement numbers used for molecular weight)
abc.net.au/science/articles/2003/11/10/981339.htm - 8th paragraph
The empirical formula of Finasteride is C23H36N2O2 and its molecular weight is 372.55.
drugs.com/pro/finasteride.html - 2nd paragraph
“The empirical formula of dutasteride is C27H30F6N2O2, representing a molecular weight of 528.5 with the following structural formula:”
dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/archives/fdaDrugInfo.cfm?archiveid=7950 - 2nd paragraph - 528 is pretty damn close to 500, so I’m considering it somewhat possible to pass. Note 1st listing says “reliably”, meaning there is a chance that larger molecules can pass as well.
For those of you that have no sensation/feeling of touch in your penis, this definitely has to mean that something is screwed up with the central nervous system and the brain. I didn’t even know that you guys can literally not FEEL anything if you touch your penises until I read some guys post about him not being able to feel anything and he can even stick something in his urethra and he won’t feel it. That’s nuts! Something in the nerves is DEFINITELY screwed up. I didn’t even know such an issue existed in this forum.
One thing to point out, since we all took varying levels of the drug before we got sick… if this stuff is stuck in us, maybe the amount of it stuck in each person will be a factor as to how long it will take for that person to heal. Maybe somebody with very little of it in their system will get better more quickly than somebody that’s taken the drug for much longer.
Please note: there are some men on this forum with estrogen dominance or high estrogen in general. If I’m right, and this drug starts exiting into the blood stream, even more DHT will likely be inhibited and chances are that you’re estrogen dominance issues might increase 
I hope I’m wrong. Maybe take an estrogen inhibitor while testing?
Also, even though I feel like weight-lifting is not super important as compared to the morning cardio, I feel like it can drastically help because: it increases testosterone, builds muscle which boosts your metabolism, which increases your ability to further excrete drugs while working out in the future, and any calorie loss from an afternoon weight lifting routine might help clear the drug from your system too!!!
Another option instead of morning cardio that will probably be better for some of you guys:
Eat whatever you want for breakfast, but then don’t eat for like 7 to 10 hours after that. Go to the gym at night, do weight lifting or cardio at a pretty intense rate as this will also help get crap out of your body as you’re still burning fat and calories, do this for an hour, and then follow it up with a protein rich meal with carbs. This should help you not only get this crap out of your body, but also build muscle 
Try to follow this routine 5 days a week, and maybe cardio on the weekends during the mornings when you’re not working. When I say intense weight-lifting, I mean you really do have to kick your own ass. No wussy workouts if you want to get better, otherwise you’ll probably come back to this forum and be all like “well I didn’t get better, that theory is b.s.”.
Update:
-
Okay so issue with tooth was a total fluke. Lasted less than a day.
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Forehead is no longer dry. Scalp appears to be getting better too. Doesn’t itch anymore, but still has flakes. I’m not so sure about my Lips. They still seem dry, but not as bad as before.
-
Having some aches in my chest where the heart is. Not sure what this is but it’s freaking me out. Comes and goes. Could be glands forming underneath the skin/muscle… gyno. Nipples are slightly sore, but both have gotten darker/pinker and wider, a sign that estrogen has increased.
To me, # 3 is a big indicator that the drug is still in my body. This should not have happened otherwise. It didn’t happen during any of my other tests, or at least not by much. It happened a little when I crashed the second time, which goes back to me thinking about what I was saying about how too much of the drug empties out into the blood and the liver can’t handle it.
I don’t want to deal with gyno issues, as I’m sure you all can imagine as well. I’m going to cut back my cardio to strictly on the weekends, and continue lifting weights once a day on the weekdays in the afternoons… this !@$#ing sucks!
It pretty much took me 6 days of cardio and lifting to get to this state. Keep in mind, I got sick from Dutasteride, not Propecia/Finasteride. You guys should all be okay and shouldn’t have drastic estrogen increases as Propecia is nowhere near as strong as Dutasteride/Avodart. Now I’m really pissed! I know what to do to get better, but I can’t because there are other consequences and I have to slow down… THIS BLOWS!!!
I want to point out something again: for the vast majority of while I was taking these drugs, I was working out pretty hard. When I started slacking like over a year ago is when I got sick. I somehow knew that had a connection to this crap.
Hey, can somebody give me some feedback on this thought/theory:
So many people on this forum have issues with syndromes like Cushing’s Syndrome, Hypothyroidism, and Adrenal Fatigue. One thing that I’ve noticed that really bothers me is the red/bloodshot eyes from something like Cushing’s syndrome. It got really, REALLY bad out of nowhere, then slowly got better, but never went back to the way it originally was and my eyes always have these red-ish veins appearing. I was thinking this: what if I’m right about messenger signals being blocked from being transmitted and received. If there is a negative feedback loop to the hypothalamus, and it reads how much cortisol there is, what if its ability to detect cortisol gets blocked, and it keeps telling the pituitary to release more ACTH to the adrenals and the adrenals just keep shooting out cortisol until there is none left? This might cause the red eye issue some of us have as well as possibly leading to adrenal fatigue as well as RT3 dominance.
telangiectasia: this is what I mean when I talk about the red-eyes issue
What do you guys think???
Other things to report: lips are much better, but chin is now somewhat dry…ha!
I’m really surprised this thread hasn’t gotten a lot of people commenting and testing out my theory. Either you guys are doing what I’m recommending without saying anything, or you all think I’m crazy and that my idea is too simple to work.
Dutsucks, the problem is not with the theory itself (you need to consider drug induced liver damage); but, the claims that PFS can be recitified through exercise; and, given that many have been suffering for years - no one buys that it can be that simple. I’m just being honest.
…or just plain crazy. Propecia has been banned by many sports governing bodies, and professional sportsmen have been banned becuse of its use. It is therefore possible to test if finasteride is still in a person (probably via urinary analysis). I suggest you spend some time finding out how to get yourself checked if you are even slightly serious about any of your ideas.
Oscar, it is not that simple; the drug has obviously undergone modification via metabolism, and it has been years. I don’t think Dutsucks has a very severe case of symptoms: this is why he notices marked improvement with exercise.
WOW… ok. I will try to see if I can test for Avodart/Propecia in my blood or urine. I doubt blood as both GSK and Merck said it’s not possible, but maybe urine.
I don’t see why you guys don’t see how it’s possible. Good scientific hypotheses are made based off of observations. I observed that the most common thing that men did to get better was to live a healthier lifestyle and to exercise. I then thought “WHY IS THAT?” and based my theory off of that observation. Whatever, hopefully I can prove this to you guys.
Dutsucks, it has been modified, buddy - not to mention, it has been years. And, the amount in the blood would be miniscule. You guys are looking at this in a very dichotomous manner. It is not a matter of the black or the white, but the grey in the middle.
Notworthit, you might be right, you might be wrong, but it’s worthwhile for me to do testing anyway. Besides, I’m VERY certain I’m right based off of my research and observations, contrary to what everybody else thinks I guess.
Below are two random resources that talk about drugs going into the brain causing issues, as well as getting stored in body-fat. Not directly talking about Propecia/Avodart though, but those are fat-soluble drugs too.
resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=w03j12712718g457&size=largest
–An interesting article talking about Central Nervous System (CNS) side effects with beta-blockers. Includes sexual sides.
–note: hydrophilic means soluble in water; lipophilic means soluble in fat
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AHormone_replacement_therapy_(trans
–Under “Casodex warning” section, 3rd paragraph, you will see this: “BTW half-life is somewhat misleading when dealing with lipophilic drugs. Since they are stored in fat cells, food intake can significantly affect serum concentrations. – Kiral 11:21, 22 May 2006 (UTC)”
–I agree with the quote above and knew this well before I had PFS issues. I intentionally spiked my insulin at the time of taking Dutasteride and Finasteride by having sugary drinks thinking that I would get more of the drug into my body to help prevent hair loss…yeah, that worked but not the way I had hoped.
I appreciate your persistence; but, my point is that I don’t want the theory scoffed, for lack of a better word, because we can’t find significant levels of the drug in serum tests. I am happy for you to attempt to find it; but, if you don’t, don’t abandon the theory, is my point.
Dutsucks, fwiw, I’m interested in your theory, but am not able to put in that kind of exercise right now b/c I leave the house at 6am for work, and don’t return till 8pm. But still… will be following this and see how things progress.
So your sexual sides feel better at this point? As in, is your libido back, even post–re-crash?
Notworthit, don’t worry, I’m not going to give up on my theory, even if it can’t be found in the blood/urine.
Nyer, my sexual sides have never been super bad the way that they are for some/most people on this forum. Like at its worst, I would have to use a good amount of effort to get myself erect. On its best, I would be ready to rip a girl apart and be going crazy.
Right now my “state of libido” is pretty decent, but not perfect. Like I’m happy I can get aroused just by watching porn and not having to touch myself. That to me is a very good sign. Also, the fact that there is more blood flow going to the head of my penis as it hasn’t been like that for a year. Semen volume and consistency is whatever, and needs improving. Testicles could be better. The second crash didn’t do much to me sexually. It was mostly just dry scalp, face, lips, and blurry vision. All of which has for the most part improved again.
DutSucks I don’t know how I can relate it to your theory but I have had saw palmetto’s nasty burps even after stopping for a long time ( I continued to have burps for 6 months after stopping). I know it is unbelievable but I did have them.
I know Saw Palmetto is also fat soluble. I do not know its molecular weight to see if it can pass the blood-brain barrier… I tried to look it up but didn’t find anything.
I kinda had the same experience with having really bad flatulence from Dutasteride which it took me a long time to realize it was still because of the Dutasteride, but it went away with just a little bit of exercise. I had this problem for a long time after being off of Dutasteride. Not the biggest of problems to be worried about as compared to the other issues, but still, glad its gone.
A few more updates:
I’m having a terribly hard time finding labs that can check either my blood, plasma, or urine for Dutasteride. I’ve only found 1 or 2 that detect Finasteride in the blood plasma, but I’m trying to find one that will detect Dutasteride. I’ve contacted like 10-12 labs so far, including some of the biggest in the country. One lab said that they might be able to “build a test” for it, but it’ll be very expensive.
Accutante/Isotretinoin Molecular Weight 300.435 (small enough to pass through blood-brain barrier) and lipophilic (dissolves in fat).
Spironolactone Molecular Weight 416.57 (small enough to pass blood-brain barrier) and also lipophilic (dissolves in fat).
“Research has also shown spironolactone can interfere with the effectiveness of antidepressant treatment. The drug is actually (among its other receptor interactions) a mineralocorticoid (MR) antagonist, and has been found to reduce the effectiveness of antidepressant drugs in the treatment of major depression, it is presumed, by interfering with normalization of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis in patients receiving antidepressant therapy”
----from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spironolactone -3rd paragraph under “Adverse Effects and Interactions”
Of the short list of people that are listed under the recoveries section, the users below somewhere in the post mentioned working out and eating healthier. Note that eating healthier also notes reduced caloric intake which likely means burning fat.
japanther - raw food diet, exercise
Big Softie - working out and healthier lifestyle, plus random supplements
HT55 - working out a lot, but also used nolvadex, hcg, and clomid
Mitch - worked out and ate healthier food
Tom43 - posted by user boston - walking, eating healthy, gaba, htp, and other supplements
ithappens - athlete, took GABAprentin and got better due to improved sleep… wondering if working out had an effect… not likely though as he felt immediate results from GABAprentin
Guru20 - took roughly 2 years to get better, worked out 3-4 hours per week also took Green Tea (no coffee), GABA and DIM supplements, was working out both when he was healthy and when he got sick
MLevyHolden - worked out everyday, ate healthier, MACA extract and TRIBULUS TERRESTRIS
Reason - tried all different things and supplements including zinc, viagra, broccoli and veggies, eating healthier, all sorts of exercises: punching bag, swimming
Many substances either increase CYP3A4 function (inducers), and many things lower CYP3A4 function (inhibitors):
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYP3A4 - check bottom of page for a list of them.
Ketoconazole, a strong inhibitor of CYP3A4 function, is a drug/shampoo that many hair-loss suffers use to help prevent hair loss. I myself have applied this shampoo (2% variation) to my scalp for 10-15 minutes every time I shampooed and also noticed some side effects from it like dry eyes and a weird taste in my mouth (alkaline?). This study shows its effects on a drug’s absorption levels:
resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=r307129371lg0066&size=largest
Also, a lot of other drugs like antibiotics such as z-pack can also interfere with the function of CYP3A4. I also read that some men just have different amounts of CYP3A4 in their body, some with less, others with more. This might account for what happened to us. Either that or we really screwed up our CYP3A4 synthesis. Also, on the wikipedia link, there is this line that states that CYP3A4 is also found in the brain?!?
One thing that’s an inducer is Saint John’s Wart. I’m thinking of taking it to see if it allows me to do more running with less estrogen dominance as it will reduce the amount of DHT being inhibited by Dutasteride which I believe will flow into my blood if I do a lot of running.
I hope all the randomness in this post makes sense.
Is this theory similar to Oscars? It would seem to be barking up the same tree.
One thing i would say is that there are more recoveries but Mew hasn’t bothered to put them in the recovery section despite my requests:
Trickster: hCG and “Doc trazodone”
f**kfin: Synthroid
1750: arimidex and “AIFM” (some topical AI)
IMO proof that everyone requires different treatment plans. Healthy living and time being the biggest common thread though.
I haven’t checked Oscar’s theory in detail but I’m pretty sure its not the same thing.
Here’s another link I forgot to post talking about drugs that can effect CYP3A4 and its effects on other drugs:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18333864
Well obviously they are different but both seem to mention the CYP3A4 enzyme and it’s involvement. Read his outline of it here: musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?3611-Official-Finasteride-Thread&p=140245#post140245 or indeed on his own thread here.
You think fin is still in our bodies. This is almost surely wrong. Our bodies still metabolising as if fin is still in the body is much more possible imo (Oscar’s theory).
A lot of the recoveries Dutsucks mentions aren’t legit in my opinion. Some are natural recoveries, others guys whose symptoms weren’t all that bad. This is a problem in alot of theories which cite stories from the recovery section.
About the only recovery story from full blown PFS I’ve read are Dustin (which still has holes in it for me) and maybe labrea, though corrieovip’s is significant. Hopefully JN will keep going but he didn’t have fog or severe physical problems.