Reversing silenced AR signal with demethylating agents - A promising treatment option?


#341

I disagree with the idea that there are no symptoms of high estrogen on this board. My gyno has got gradually worse and become moobs. Also, tons of guys become ‘emotional’ when they quit as there are no androgens to offset these sides. This is one thing we have in common with BB’ers who report the same thing when they come off the juice. Thank Christ this seems to go away.

The problem isn’t so much high estrogen as no androgens to counteract normal levels.

Even Crisler used to joke that his office was full of gifts of flowers, cards and pen sets from PFS guys, ie we were a bit wussy and low in t, high or unopposed in E.


#342

You are wrong oscar.

About 3 weeks after quitting fin i developed lumps behind my nipples. They were diagnosed as gyno by my doctor. They have since resolved themselves without any assistance, took about 2 months for this to happen(resolution).

So you are wrong…


#343

.


#344

Has anyone else tried any demethylating agents - apart from awor?


#345

Why should anyone do it, since it didn’t really work for him? Furthermore, it is my impression that the methylation theory fails to explain a few recent recovery/improvement stories, while, as awor says, it should explain all stories on this forum.

Given these two facts, it is understandable why nobody has started a potentially harmful treatment such as global demethylation.


#346

It did help awor. Yes it didn’t stick but that is because he most likely didn’t hit it hard enough and remethylation took place. Which stories don’t fit in?


#347

Recoveries from:

hCG
Synthyroid
T3 and Preg
Arimidex
Vitamin D3
Prednisone and Dox

don’t seem to reconcile well or at all IMO.


#348

I disagree. I have shown how all these things in this thread link in with this idea. Also I have pursued most of them and none of them have helped. Show me consistency in these treatments in terms of results. Our bodies don’t respond to testosterone as it should. Hormonal levels have little effect.


#349

In cases such as this it can be proof that there are non-hormonal problems not just a really complex unprecented acquired partial androgen resistence. More realistic non-hormonal problems can be anything from liver to CNS to brain to prostrate or a combination. It’s been shown that gut wall infections and suchlike can cause subclinical problems to both adrenals and thyroids, also. I think these are the areas worth exploring first and foremost.


#350

I think the problem is most certainly to do with the lack of response to androgens. It is the most realistic explanation at present. Other hormonal treatments have not helped in a repeatable way and i have shown can act on the response to androgens. A change in the biology of our bodies is most likely the thing to explain the reason for the crash after stopping rather than a pathological explanation like an autoimmune process or a leaky gut.


#351

I agree that some of us experience lack of response to androgens. At some point during my clomid treatment, all my sex hormones were better than those I had before propecia, but still had low libido. But why cannot this be due to low thyroid hormones? In JN’s thread, awor provides a reference that shows that T3 increases androgen receptor expression. If pre-fin I had high thyroid hormones, then the “low libido despite good hormones” could be simply explained by low thyroid hormones, and not by some mysterious change in our body (which, by the way, some people managed to reverse by fixing cortisol and thyroid hormones).


#352

I have showed how cortisol and thyroid hormones change androgen expression. What i am saying is in some of us we will benefit from these things but this is because of its impact on androgen expression - not due to an innate issue with the thyroid and adrenal axis. If it was a cure all more would have had benefit. Hardly anyone has. There are a few but more have failed.


#353

I think we need to accept that in many cases it might not actually be a basic hormonal issue, thus going by your T, E values etc isn’t really telling you as much as you think. I reckon in many cases (if not all) it’s a metabolism problem as evidenced by whacky 3-adiol-G readings and also incongruent blood and urine levels that we’ve seen in many subjects.


#354

Awor, Dr Crisler isn’t very impressed with this whole debate apparently and has pretty much blasted this whole movement on his own forum in the Official Finasteride Thread…

I’ll also point you to this recent post:

musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?3611-Official-Finasteride-Thread&p=147574#post147574

I really think the answers lie elsewhere.


#355

I see what you’re saying.

I am not sure how much to trust Crisler’s medical opinion - he is a huge advocate of TRT yet hardly anyone has had long term success on that. Also I remember he waivers all responsibility for your care so he covers his ass. Its great he recognises PFS but who has improved with his logic?

We have an androgen resistant picture - the cause of which we need to figure out. Awors idea isn’t completely nuts. So far his evidence has been the most convincing to me otherwise i wouldn’t be going on about it.


#356

Jacobs and several others seem much more intent on sticking everyone on TRT. Crisler seems to be one of the docs who actually tries various other options first, included the clomid treatment.

He says he has helped many. Truth is we dont even have many Crisler patients on this board so we can’t tell for sure.

Some of us do.

As Crisler just posted today, TRT isn’t a magical cure for anyone, PFS sufferer or not. We forget that.

There are much more likely reasons why we don’t respond to androgens like we used to, metabolism is the most obvious to me.


#357

What evidence are you talking about exactly? I thought that he could not get cured by procaine, but maybe I’m missing something. Note that the improvements he received (mental, energy) have little to do with androgen levels, i.e. he could achieve the same improvements by improving his levels of pregnenolone, progesterone, cortisol, T4, and T3.


#358

Awor did improve on procaine. It just wore off. If you read his post you will see he had a degree of improvement in most areas. Also it wore of most likely due to remethylation. His theory explains the crash and can account for some of the recoveries.

The only flaw i can see in it is the prostate pain people experience as this shouldn’t happen in it. The extent of not feeling the effects of androgens also varies significantly. Also antibiotics help some and the evidence put forward to explain this isn’t very convincing (mainly because it hasn’t been studied).


#359

The temporary improvement, as awor himself says, could be due to stopping SSRIs.

I don’t think it does. The regulation of gene expression is a molecular change that our receptors do all the time in order to keep a steady output. To me, it sounds like a very fast chemical adjustment, and not something that takes weeks/months, which is the typical time for the crash. Something that takes weeks or months sounds more like a dramatic change in the hormonal profile. But maybe you have a scientific study to back up the long time needed for this change to happen.

Another flaw in the theory is that some receptors behave as hypersensitive and some as hyposensitive, but awor hasn’t clarified his view on this yet: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=5129&start=20

Another flaw is the following. Some people are hit by finasteride within days, while for others it takes years. This theory explains this by the different speed at which we become hypersensitive to T/DHT, which is different from everybody. In other words, this theory says that everybody has a sort of maximum time that they can take finasteride with no issues. Also, there are examples of people who took propecia for years without issues, stopped without issues, resumed the use of the drug a few years later only for a few days, and got hit badly. So, according to this theory, those people initially stopped finasteride just a couple of days before reaching their maximum time threshold. And then, when they took a few pills years later they reached the threshold and broke their system. What are the odds?


#360

A small note on Progesterone : santedesfemmes.com/hormonothe…u-masculin.php

The hormonal balance in the masculine
Natural hormone therapy for men
Written by Micheline O’Shaughnessy

As is the case among women, the medical approach to hormone deficiencies is mostly to prescribe hormone therapy to address the weaknesses of a particular hormone (typically testosterone in men and estrogen women) without worrying about restoring the balance between the different steroid hormones, including testosterone, estrogen, progesterone and DHEA. This type of intervention can help in some cases, but often this approach “piecemeal” is powerless to solve problems resulting from hormonal deficiencies obvious, such as erectile dysfunction or lack of libido in men, which are Yet the typical symptoms of testosterone deficiency. In an article published in the journal of the Life Extension Foundation1, Dr. Sergey A. Dzugan, president of the Scientific Committee of this organization, describes a case study is an excellent example of why the conventional medical treatment for testosterone deficiency in men does not always work.

A problem that leads to disastrous consequences for human health is the change in ratio between estrogen and testosterone in midlife. Thus men are left with estrogen dominance that will make the cells more “deaf” to the message of insulin, which will create a vicious circle because the insulin resistance will encourage the accumulation of abdominal fat which by the action of the enzyme aromatase is becoming a manufacture estrogen. The increase of estrogen in the blood will increase the level of SHBG (binding protein for steroid hormones, especially testosterone), which will dramatically reduce the amount of bioavailable or free testosterone in the blood. And all this will add a drop of testosterone due to slowing with age of adrenal DHEA (dehydroepiandrosterone), a hormone that is a precursor in the biosynthesis of androgens (testosterone and androstenedione) by the body.

A healthy level of testosterone is essential for healthy bones and maintain muscle mass in men. A recent study2 further confirms the importance of testosterone for cardiovascular health. Dr. Dzugan began by prescribing a testosterone supplement to the patient, but after increasing the dose two times without result, he found a “functional impairment” 3 and opted for a holistic approach to re-balance all steroid hormones, not just replace testosterone. It was among others block the action of 5-alpha reductase, the enzyme responsible for converting testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and aromatase, the enzyme that converts testosterone into estrogen. These transformations are also two known risk factors for prostate cancer. Finally, it should increase the level of free testosterone by preventing it from binding to SHBG.[b]

This patient also had a high level of cholesterol, but rather than tackle this problem by prescribing statins, Dr. Dzugan decided to await the results of its holistic approach because high cholesterol is often a sign that the body is lack of hormones and the liver receives the message to produce more cholesterol, which is the raw material. Dr. Dzugan considered that the natural reduction of cholesterol levels in this patient is significant evidence of the success of the proposed therapy, based on a combination of herbal and hormone therapy, including the following major elements:[/b]

  • The extract of saw palmetto (Serenoa repens), a plant which has been shown the ability to reduce the production of 5-alpha reductase.
  • The nettle root, which also moderates the production of 5-alpha reductase and preventing the testosterone from binding to SHBG.
  • The Pygeum africanum, a plant believed to be capable of reducing the proliferation of prostate cells.
  • Zinc, an aromatase inhibitor very effectively.
  • Progesterone, at a rate of 12mg per day to inhibit the production of 5-alpha reductase and the enzyme aromatase. This dose may be adjusted to a maintenance dose of 8 mg every other day.
  • DHEA at a rate of 100mg per day until a blood test or saliva indicates an increase of this hormone. Thereafter, the dose should be reduced to 50mg per day.

Not only did this protocol in resolving the testosterone deficiency and erectile dysfunction in this patient but also helped to normalize their cholesterol levels. Furthermore, the reduction of 5-alpha reductase was the same time reduce their risk of prostate cancer because the DHT is a potent metabolite of testosterone that is involved in the development of this cancer.

Note that progesterone has played an important role in the success of this approach. Dr. Dzugan explains: "In this patient, blood tests showed that progesterone was at the lower limit of normal, so we decided to raise the level of this hormone to ensure effective control aromatase, thereby lowering estrogen. In men, progesterone is produced by the adrenal glands and testes. Men over age 40 should consider preventive therapy for replacement of this hormone progesterone, which also decreases with age, not only ensures the suppression of aromatase but also of 5-alpha reductase. With these properties, progesterone “releases testosterone, a hormone essential for maintaining the health of men at any age.”

Reference and recommended readings:
1 Life Extension Magazine, October 2005.
lef.org/magazine/mag2005/oct2005_ch_03.htm
2 santedesfemmes.com/actual…les-hommes.php
3 “functional impairment” means that the hormone is present but fails to bring his message to the cells.

From the book “Hormone therapy more effective and safe, it’s possible,” by Dr. George Gillson, MD This book includes an excellent chapter on health hormonal male. You can order it by clicking the “Shopping” category “Educational Materials” or call 1-800-486-0535.