Reversing silenced AR signal with demethylating agents - A promising treatment option?


#321

There is a theory on the board that you can resensitize receptors of chemicals by promoting use of an antagonist of the receptor (viewtopic.php?f=27&t=3632). Based on this theory green tea polyphenol EGCG blunting androgen receptor function might actually be a good thing.

Add to this the fact that green tea is a known demethylating agent along with guru20 in the recoveries section (viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1524) who claimed he got better from green tea and DIM (also a known AR antagonist).

Anyway I usually feel better when I drink green tea, at least mentally so I’ll probably stick with it for now.


#322

I androgen receptors arent working why isnt estrogen dominating, and creating a large number of estrogen side effects?


#323

Who says E2 isn’t a factor for men with PFS issues? The drug is listed to cause gyno, and has been documented to alter the androgen/estrogen ratio to be in favor of estrogens.

I certainly have issues from E2 creeping up over the years:

  • Gynecomastia which manifested on drug and never resolved
  • Feminine fat deposits in thighs/buttocks
  • Feminine widening of hips
  • Thinned fingers/wrists/forearms/lower legs/calves/ankles where muscle used to be, now taking on more female proportions/loss of muscle

If androgen cannot exert its effects, it makes sense that E2 will predominate even at “normal” ranges.


#324

Finasteride can lead to clear E2 problems, I myself now have pseudo-gyno as a result of taking Propecia. But thats whilst using the stuff.

I have never read of anyone growing gyno after stopping. Thats important.

I am not saying androgens are working. I am saying this means androgens + estrogens arent working. The trend is towards the androgynous.

(Hell, maybe thyroid hormones have stopped working too which is why Im so cold all the time).


#325

Wouldn’t this idea suggest going back on finasteride? Which seems like the wrong things to do. Are you trying to say that by blocking transcriptional activity of the AR the body will try to compensate? Wouldn’t this lead to an even more hypersensitive receptor which awor thinks is the cause of our problems.

I see what you’re saying. It would be good if other people let us know how green tea affects them.

I think Mew is on the ball with the androgen/estrogen ratio being the issue for some people. If we are androgen resistant normal levels of estrogen can promote estrogenic signs. This ratio is fragile and our bodies are very sensitive to it. A simple thing like grapefruit juice has made people feel terrible. It made me feel different too. Normal people should not get put into a estrogenic state by a couple glasses of grapefruit juice. We are very sensitive to things.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4695&start=80


#326

and

I’ve seen you make this “observation” before and i REALLY don’t see where you’re getting it out of. Just because PFS victims appear “damaged” doesn’t lead to this conclusion.

We have said that many of us appear* to be " partially androgen resistent". But you’ve taken it upon yourself to suggest we’re numbed to estrogen, too? I see very little evidence of this on this board. Indeed, if it was the case i wouldn’t have developed worse sides as my estrogen got higher over the period of last year. Also, most of the sides Mew listed would surely abate in such a circumstance. Not to mention we’d actually show LOW estrogen symptoms which little or no of us actually exhibit, either…

*NB: When I say appear i don’t mean they are. The liver, adrenals and thryoids are potentially as far as we need to look…but noone is sure at this point.

Anyway, let’s not derail this thread. I wish Awor would update us.


#327

Mew grew gynecomastia in less than 11 months - this was due to increased levels of estrogens. Now the presumption is that the effects of androgens have been nulled, this would presumably mean only the effects of estrogens being felt.

Surely if that had happened his gyno would get worse and worse? (And many of the guys badly effected would report gyno after quitting?)

Surely if that had happened he would not have seen E2 effects ‘over the years’ (7 years) but over the course of a few months?

Its pretty clear at this point that testosterone has stopped working. But its not useful to get stuck on one idea. Im not saying I know anything, but I am simply reporting what are obvious facts (posistive and negative) from reading this forum.

This supports what Im saying.

No, gyno needs surgery.

YES WE DO. Especially if your saying testosterone no longer works.


#328

Conclusion: Either both androgens & estrogens are working or neither are working.

Its not as simple as just an AR problem.


#329

I disagree with you Oscar. As we’ve said if androgens are not working properly the estrogens which are still working will have dominance of the androgen/estrogen ratio. We experience hypogonadal symptoms which in itself can lead to to gynae problems which do not improve after stopping. You do not always needs surgery for this. Sometimes if it does not go away you do.

There is no evidence to suggest problems with low estrogen. There have been problems with high estrogen but not low. Also if estrogens were not working things like the grapefruit juice wouldn’t have any effect.

The problem is with the effects produced by androgens. Everything else is secondary.


#330

Been thinking of other ideas. DNA methlyation is one thing we need to rule out.

From wiki:

DNA methylation may affect the transcription of genes in two ways. First, the methylation of DNA itself may physically impede the binding of transcriptional proteins to the gene, and second, and likely more important, methylated DNA may be bound by proteins known as methyl-CpG-binding domain proteins (MBDs). MBD proteins then recruit additional proteins to the locus, such as histone deacetylases and other chromatin remodeling proteins that can modify histones, thereby forming compact, inactive chromatin, termed silent chromatin. This link between DNA methylation and chromatin structure is very important. In particular, loss of methyl-CpG-binding protein 2 (MeCP2) has been implicated in Rett syndrome; and methyl-CpG-binding domain protein 2 (MBD2) mediates the transcriptional silencing of hypermethylated genes in cancer.

However, the possibility of the problem to be after this process is also valid and in this idea the problem is not with the DNA, genes and epigenome but with the proteins - the things the genes make. This would be termed a protein post translational modification.

premierbiosoft.com/glycan/glossary/post-translational-modifications.html

Ways in which it happens:

Glycosylation: Many proteins, particularly in eukaryotic cells, are modified by the addition of carbohydrates, a process called glycosylation. Glycosylation in proteins results in addition of a glycosyl group to either asparagine, hydroxylysine, serine, or threonine. Software for studying glycosylation by glycan structure prediction.

Acetylation: the addition of an acetyl group, usually at the N-terminus of the protein.

Alkylation: The addition of an alkyl group (e.g. methyl, ethyl).

Methylation: The addition of a methyl group, usually at lysine or arginine residues. (This is a type of alkylation.)

Biotinylation: Acylation of conserved lysine residues with a biotin appendage.

Glutamylation: Covalent linkage of glutamic acid residues to tubulin and some other proteins.

Glycylation: Covalent linkage of one to more than 40 glycine residues to the tubulin C-terminal tail of the amino acid sequence.

Isoprenylation: The addition of an isoprenoid group (e.g. farnesol and geranylgeraniol).

Lipoylation: The attachment of a lipoate functionality.

Phosphopantetheinylation, The addition of a 4’-phosphopantetheinyl moiety from coenzyme A, as in fatty acid, polyketide, non-ribosomal peptide and leucine biosynthesis.

Phosphorylation, the addition of a phosphate group, usually to serine, tyrosine, threonine or histidine.

Sulfation: The addition of a sulfate group to a tyrosine.

Selenation

C-terminal amidation

In terms of research we should start at the genetic level and then work up to see where the problem is. Although I’m in favour with a systems view of biology this is the only realistic way to look at it.

The more I think about it this could be VERY important!


#331

Hi everyone

Just wanted to drop a line to let everyone know I’m still alive. As I said before, this is not a recovery thread. But given that I let people know that demethylation has helped me, I think it’s time to give you all an update.

As stated previously, a demethylation therapy using intravenous procaine did wonders for me. So much, that I decided to dump all other medication (mainly two antidepressants). This led to a further improvement in my condition, including sexual sides (fuller penis, usable erection, libido). Antidepressants work by increasing neurosteroid levels. They achieve this (just about all of them), by increasing induction of 3a-HSD. This, unfortunately, causes a reduction in androgens at the cellular level.

So dumping my antidepressants had the effect of giving me an androgen boost, which made me feel better for about a week or two following quitting. In my case, increasing androgens eventually always makes me feel worse. So going off the SSRI’s eventually caused me to crash again and I was feeling pretty shitty for quite a few months. Since about a month, I am starting to feel better again. Some libido, often good morning erections. But if I do anything to raise testosterone (ejaculation, too much exercise), I feel bad, depressed and get shrinkage. So not really useful from a sexual perspective.

Since 6 months I am completely off any medication besides TRT. The procaine therapy seemed to have weakened my immune system because I was coughing almost all winter. This appears to have gotten better now. Global demethylation is not the magic bullet because it messes with too many other mechanisms in the body and can cause other, serious problems. My personal focus is still on getting scientists interested in working the basic science side of things. We need a more detailed understanding of what’s wrong in order to assist with a more targeted therapy. I hope we can start initiating some molecular level studies in the foreseeable future.

Take care all.


#332

Thanks for the update.

I am not sure I agree with your statement on global demethylation as the majority of the epigenome would be far more resilient to demethylating therapies than the ones that have been altered. It is not like people who have taken azacitadine suddenly find their bodies acting in a completely different manner. Most of the more fixed gene expressions will return to their normal function by process of remethylation or would not necessarily demethylate in the first place. Given this and the fact you improved on procaine wouldn’t it suggest that it could help. If I’m wrong about this could you point to examples where demethylation has messed things up permanently for people. Also have you retained any benefit from the procaine therapy or do you think you suffered from remethylation? If so again what reasoning and evidence do you have to suggest a longer therapy would cause more harm than good?

Thanks.


#333

But they dont, thats what Im saying.

No. Gynecomastia always needs surgery. Look it up.

If testosterone isnt working there must be low estrogen effects too - else it would be obvious from the symptoms reported.

NAME ONE.

This supports what Im saying. If E is working but T isnt why should a person even need to boost there estrogen levels before they feel E sides? (Anyway provide some proof grapefruit juice does this).

There is no “everything else” - THERE SHOULD BE - this is the point that Im making.

I welcome a counter arguement. Otherwise the conclusion must be as follows: Either both androgens & estrogens are working or neither are working. Its not as ‘simple’ as just an AR problem.


#334

Your tone is very confrontational. I hope you are ok.

To answer your questions. Gynecomastia can be go away by itself if the hormonal abnormality is corrected, or through medication. However, if left untreated it can persist then surgery is an option. You obviously have not looked this up. Even wikipedia gives this info.

No testosterone and estrogen do not bind to the same receptors. Therefore one can work when the other doesn’t if hormonal levels are normal.

One problem of high estrogen - gynecomastia which Mew has had issues with. Not everyone will have these issues as not everyone has complete inactivation of their AR signal. For example some people can still have morning erections.

Grapefruit juice - maturitas.org/article/0378-5122(9490012-4/abstract

I hope this helps. And please you’re going to wind a lot of people up if you continue in your confrontational manner. Present your findings in a fair manner. Let the science speak for itself.


#335

Ok. The main point is it doesnt go away without intervention. But gynecomastia, which Mew has, as opposed to pseudogynecomastia - always needs surgery. Either way - it IS NOT a sign of high estrogen.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynecomastia

Who said they did?

So…why isnt it?

This developed on the drug, has not got worse, and would not necessarily resolve. Therefore in the whole forum NOT ONE EXAMPLE OF HIGH ESTROGEN AFTER QUITTING!

But they should - an inactivation of AR (even partial – as you say) would cause a massive estrogen dominance.

You have provided no argument to counter what I am saying, nothing scientific, nothing at all. Unless you can find an example of high estrogen after stopping and not simply something that developed on the drug and never went away, I must be correct. Its only unfair to deny such blatant and obvious facts. Pull yourself out of your mindset.


#336

Again with the aggressive manner. Your logic doesn’t add up as there are people with high estrogen.

I will answer your questions:

First off. Gynecomastia is a range of disorders ranging from whether adipose tissue is formed or breast tissue is -pseudo is primarily adipose tissue. It may improve upon resolving the hormonal issue:

Treating the underlying cause of the gynecomastia may lead to improvement in the condition. Patients should talk with their doctor about revising any medications, such as risperdal, that are found to be causing gynecomastia. Often, an alternative medication can be found that avoids gynecomastia side-effects while still treating the primary condition (e.g., in place of taking spironolactone the alternative eplerenone can be used). Selective estrogen receptor modulator medications, such as tamoxifen and clomiphene, or androgens (typically testosterone) or aromatase inhibitors such as Letrozole are medical treatment options, although they are not universally approved for the treatment of gynecomastia. Endocrinological attention may help during the first 2–3 years. After that window, however, the breast tissue tends to remain and harden, leaving surgery (either liposuction, gland excision, skin sculpture, reduction mammoplasty, or a combination of these surgical techniques) as the only treatment option.

Secondly show me evidence that estrogen isn’t working or is low in individuals. My estrogen was in normal values. Why do you think it is so important? What you are saying is that if androgens are not functioning estrogen would dominate completely and cause a cascade of symptoms. However, you do not see this happening. What are you implying? Estrogen resistance as well? Then why the response to estrogenic substances? It doesn’t add up. Keep in mind we still have normal androgen levels and a varying degree of function of the AR and what happens after it.

This guys estrogen was raised and you yourself told him so.

Check out: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4827

Also: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4406

I don’t know why you’ve come up with this idea. Show me evidence it is the case and then maybe I’ll believe you. But at the moment all you tell me is I’m categorically wrong which is not only unconstructive but is unprofessional.


#337

Either way, it doesnt mean estrogens are still high, not at all. (Also, your quoting from the same source as me which elsewhere clearly supports what I have said!)

Im not talking about levels or ranges.

Yes EXACTLY. Or at least it would be reported quite often, instead of never.

Yes. Thats what I have said. We are not responding to estrogens properly too, otherwise low response to androgens would lead to high estrogenic effects, and someone at some point would at least have reported them. Getting effects only after boosting estrogens (if indeed thats what did happen) proves my point.

It does add up. It must be both androgens and estrogens, else those people with low function in their AR (as you say) would have at one point reported gyno.

So? Nothing to do with this discussion.

What a strange thing to say. The facts are 100% in support of what im saying. Thats why I came up with this idea. There are NO SYMPTOMS of high estrogen reported on this board. Thats the fact of the matter, that is conclusive evidence. This MUST happen if the AR is not working.

I am correct, so its time to progress the conversation accordingly. Not a lot else needs to be said.


#338

This would happen if the AR is completely dead. I do not think this is so. For example I still lose hair and have morning erections yet I suffer from many sexual sides and a crippling fatigue. I see your point Oscar but do not feel the balance is so out that it would directly cause symptoms of increased estrogens and i do not feel the AR is so dead to not have any effect. Construct a test to determine whether I’m wrong. But at this moment I am not convinced.

Maybe get a DEXA scan. Oestrogen is important for bones.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10209570


#339

It’s common

Myself and 1750 are good examples.

As my estrogen levels have risen post-finasteride my symptoms have worsened.

Seriously man you’re barking up the wrong tree on this one. If we didn’t feel estrogen either we’d be 10x worse again. We’d all have weak joints and all sorts of issues.


#340

No. Bodybuilders get gyno and they have normal response to androgens.

If you think the AR isnt working in some that would put the estrogen/androgen effect ratio out - for those with no response to androgens they (at the very least) would have a massive estrogen/ratio problem. They do not report these symptoms, thereofre i must be correct.

The fact no one reports estrogenic side effects after quitting is 100% solid proof.

Im actually trying to get one sorted out at the moment. That wont prove Im right though.

Im not saying estrogen has stopped working in everyone. But in those people for whom testosterone has stopped working so must estrogens, otherwise the effects would be obvious.

Either both androgens & estrogens are working or neither are working. Its not as ‘simple’ as just an AR problem.