Reversing silenced AR signal with demethylating agents - A promising treatment option?

[191]

Your tone is very confrontational. I hope you are ok.

To answer your questions. Gynecomastia can be go away by itself if the hormonal abnormality is corrected, or through medication. However, if left untreated it can persist then surgery is an option. You obviously have not looked this up. Even wikipedia gives this info.

No testosterone and estrogen do not bind to the same receptors. Therefore one can work when the other doesn’t if hormonal levels are normal.

One problem of high estrogen - gynecomastia which Mew has had issues with. Not everyone will have these issues as not everyone has complete inactivation of their AR signal. For example some people can still have morning erections.

Grapefruit juice - maturitas.org/article/0378-5122(9490012-4/abstract

I hope this helps. And please you’re going to wind a lot of people up if you continue in your confrontational manner. Present your findings in a fair manner. Let the science speak for itself.

[Oscar]

@19

To answer your questions. Gynecomastia can be go away by itself if the hormonal abnormality is corrected, or through medication. However, if left untreated it can persist then surgery is an option. You obviously have not looked this up. Even wikipedia gives this info.

Ok. The main point is it doesnt go away without intervention. But gynecomastia, which Mew has, as opposed to pseudogynecomastia - always needs surgery. Either way - it IS NOT a sign of high estrogen.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynecomastia

Pure Glandular. In bodybuilders, this may be a result of the use of anabolic steroids.[5] Due to excess testosterone levels from steroids, which is converted to estrogen, bodybuilders and other athletes are sometimes afflicted with gynecomastia in its purest form. Gynecomastia in lean men is usually only a breast tissue gland with little to no adipose tissue. Proper treatment of pure gynecomastia can be done only by excision of the breast tissue, which in the case of bodybuilders is by itself sufficient to achieve a flat nipple-areola complex. Liposuction is only rarely necessary.

@19

No testosterone and estrogen do not bind to the same receptors

Who said they did?

@19

Therefore one can work when the other doesn’t if hormonal levels are normal.

So…why isnt it?

@19

One problem of high estrogen - gynecomastia which Mew has had issues with.

This developed on the drug, has not got worse, and would not necessarily resolve. Therefore in the whole forum NOT ONE EXAMPLE OF HIGH ESTROGEN AFTER QUITTING!

@19

Not everyone will have these issues as not everyone has complete inactivation of their AR signal. For example some people can still have morning erections.

But they should - an inactivation of AR (even partial – as you say) would cause a massive estrogen dominance.

You have provided no argument to counter what I am saying, nothing scientific, nothing at all. Unless you can find an example of high estrogen after stopping and not simply something that developed on the drug and never went away, I must be correct. Its only unfair to deny such blatant and obvious facts. Pull yourself out of your mindset.

[191]

Again with the aggressive manner. Your logic doesn’t add up as there are people with high estrogen.

I will answer your questions:

First off. Gynecomastia is a range of disorders ranging from whether adipose tissue is formed or breast tissue is -pseudo is primarily adipose tissue. It may improve upon resolving the hormonal issue:

Treating the underlying cause of the gynecomastia may lead to improvement in the condition. Patients should talk with their doctor about revising any medications, such as risperdal, that are found to be causing gynecomastia. Often, an alternative medication can be found that avoids gynecomastia side-effects while still treating the primary condition (e.g., in place of taking spironolactone the alternative eplerenone can be used). Selective estrogen receptor modulator medications, such as tamoxifen and clomiphene, or androgens (typically testosterone) or aromatase inhibitors such as Letrozole are medical treatment options, although they are not universally approved for the treatment of gynecomastia. Endocrinological attention may help during the first 2–3 years. After that window, however, the breast tissue tends to remain and harden, leaving surgery (either liposuction, gland excision, skin sculpture, reduction mammoplasty, or a combination of these surgical techniques) as the only treatment option.

Secondly show me evidence that estrogen isn’t working or is low in individuals. My estrogen was in normal values. Why do you think it is so important? What you are saying is that if androgens are not functioning estrogen would dominate completely and cause a cascade of symptoms. However, you do not see this happening. What are you implying? Estrogen resistance as well? Then why the response to estrogenic substances? It doesn’t add up. Keep in mind we still have normal androgen levels and a varying degree of function of the AR and what happens after it.

This guys estrogen was raised and you yourself told him so.

Check out: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4827

Also: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4406

I don’t know why you’ve come up with this idea. Show me evidence it is the case and then maybe I’ll believe you. But at the moment all you tell me is I’m categorically wrong which is not only unconstructive but is unprofessional.

[Oscar]

@19

First off. Gynecomastia is a range of disorders ranging from whether adipose tissue is formed or breast tissue is -pseudo is primarily adipose tissue. It may improve upon resolving the hormonal issue: …

Either way, it doesnt mean estrogens are still high, not at all. (Also, your quoting from the same source as me which elsewhere clearly supports what I have said!)

@19

Secondly show me evidence that estrogen isn’t working or is low in individuals. My estrogen was in normal values. Why do you think it is so important?

Im not talking about levels or ranges.

@19

Why do you think it is so important? What you are saying is that if androgens are not functioning estrogen would dominate completely and cause a cascade of symptoms.

Yes EXACTLY. Or at least it would be reported quite often, instead of never.

@19

What are you implying? Estrogen resistance as well? Then why the response to estrogenic substances?

Yes. Thats what I have said. We are not responding to estrogens properly too, otherwise low response to androgens would lead to high estrogenic effects, and someone at some point would at least have reported them. Getting effects only after boosting estrogens (if indeed thats what did happen) proves my point.

@19

It doesn’t add up. Keep in mind we still have normal androgen levels and a varying degree of function of the AR and what happens after it.

It does add up. It must be both androgens and estrogens, else those people with low function in their AR (as you say) would have at one point reported gyno.

@19

This guys estrogen was raised and you yourself told him so.

Check out: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4827

Also: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4406

So? Nothing to do with this discussion.

@19

I don’t know why you’ve come up with this idea. Show me evidence it is the case and then maybe I’ll believe you. But at the moment all you tell me is I’m categorically wrong which is not only unconstructive but is unprofessional.

What a strange thing to say. The facts are 100% in support of what im saying. Thats why I came up with this idea. There are NO SYMPTOMS of high estrogen reported on this board. Thats the fact of the matter, that is conclusive evidence. This MUST happen if the AR is not working.

I am correct, so its time to progress the conversation accordingly. Not a lot else needs to be said.

[191]

This would happen if the AR is completely dead. I do not think this is so. For example I still lose hair and have morning erections yet I suffer from many sexual sides and a crippling fatigue. I see your point Oscar but do not feel the balance is so out that it would directly cause symptoms of increased estrogens and i do not feel the AR is so dead to not have any effect. Construct a test to determine whether I’m wrong. But at this moment I am not convinced.

Maybe get a DEXA scan. Oestrogen is important for bones.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10209570

[Mens_Rea]

@Oscar

NOT ONE EXAMPLE OF HIGH ESTROGEN AFTER QUITTING!

It’s common

Myself and 1750 are good examples.

As my estrogen levels have risen post-finasteride my symptoms have worsened.

Seriously man you’re barking up the wrong tree on this one. If we didn’t feel estrogen either we’d be 10x worse again. We’d all have weak joints and all sorts of issues.

[Oscar]

@19

This would happen if the AR is completely dead. I do not think this is so.

No. Bodybuilders get gyno and they have normal response to androgens.

@19

For example I still lose hair and have morning erections yet I suffer from many sexual sides and a crippling fatigue. I see your point Oscar but do not feel the balance is so out that it would directly cause symptoms of increased estrogens and i do not feel the AR is so dead to not have any effect.

If you think the AR isnt working in some that would put the estrogen/androgen effect ratio out - for those with no response to androgens they (at the very least) would have a massive estrogen/ratio problem. They do not report these symptoms, thereofre i must be correct.

@19

Construct a test to determine whether I’m wrong.

The fact no one reports estrogenic side effects after quitting is 100% solid proof.

@19

Maybe get a DEXA scan. Oestrogen is important for bones.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10209570

Im actually trying to get one sorted out at the moment. That wont prove Im right though.

@Mens Rea

Myself and 1750 are good examples.

As my estrogen levels have risen post-finasteride my symptoms have worsened.

Im not saying estrogen has stopped working in everyone. But in those people for whom testosterone has stopped working so must estrogens, otherwise the effects would be obvious.

Either both androgens & estrogens are working or neither are working. Its not as ‘simple’ as just an AR problem.

[Luckfax]

I disagree with the idea that there are no symptoms of high estrogen on this board. My gyno has got gradually worse and become moobs. Also, tons of guys become ‘emotional’ when they quit as there are no androgens to offset these sides. This is one thing we have in common with BB’ers who report the same thing when they come off the juice. Thank Christ this seems to go away.

The problem isn’t so much high estrogen as no androgens to counteract normal levels.

Even Crisler used to joke that his office was full of gifts of flowers, cards and pen sets from PFS guys, ie we were a bit wussy and low in t, high or unopposed in E.

[tim1911]

You are wrong oscar.

About 3 weeks after quitting fin i developed lumps behind my nipples. They were diagnosed as gyno by my doctor. They have since resolved themselves without any assistance, took about 2 months for this to happen(resolution).

So you are wrong…

[solonjk]

.

[191]

Has anyone else tried any demethylating agents - apart from awor?

[m_81]

@19

Has anyone else tried any demethylating agents - apart from awor?

Why should anyone do it, since it didn’t really work for him? Furthermore, it is my impression that the methylation theory fails to explain a few recent recovery/improvement stories, while, as awor says, it should explain all stories on this forum.

Given these two facts, it is understandable why nobody has started a potentially harmful treatment such as global demethylation.

[191]

It did help awor. Yes it didn’t stick but that is because he most likely didn’t hit it hard enough and remethylation took place. Which stories don’t fit in?

[Mens_Rea]

@19

It did help awor. Yes it didn’t stick but that is because he most likely didn’t hit it hard enough and remethylation took place. Which stories don’t fit in?

Recoveries from:

hCG
Synthyroid
T3 and Preg
Arimidex
Vitamin D3
Prednisone and Dox

don’t seem to reconcile well or at all IMO.

[191]

I disagree. I have shown how all these things in this thread link in with this idea. Also I have pursued most of them and none of them have helped. Show me consistency in these treatments in terms of results. Our bodies don’t respond to testosterone as it should. Hormonal levels have little effect.

[Mens_Rea]

@19

I disagree. I have shown how all these things in this thread link in with this idea. Also I have pursued most of them and none of them have helped. Show me consistency in these treatments in terms of results. Our bodies don’t respond to testosterone as it should. Hormonal levels have little effect.

In cases such as this it can be proof that there are non-hormonal problems not just a really complex unprecented acquired partial androgen resistence. More realistic non-hormonal problems can be anything from liver to CNS to brain to prostrate or a combination. It’s been shown that gut wall infections and suchlike can cause subclinical problems to both adrenals and thyroids, also. I think these are the areas worth exploring first and foremost.

[191]

I think the problem is most certainly to do with the lack of response to androgens. It is the most realistic explanation at present. Other hormonal treatments have not helped in a repeatable way and i have shown can act on the response to androgens. A change in the biology of our bodies is most likely the thing to explain the reason for the crash after stopping rather than a pathological explanation like an autoimmune process or a leaky gut.

[m_81]

@19

I think the problem is most certainly to do with the lack of response to androgens. It is the most realistic explanation at present. Other hormonal treatments have not helped in a repeatable way and i have shown can act on the response to androgens. A change in the biology of our bodies is most likely the thing to explain the reason for the crash after stopping rather than a pathological explanation like an autoimmune process or a leaky gut.

I agree that some of us experience lack of response to androgens. At some point during my clomid treatment, all my sex hormones were better than those I had before propecia, but still had low libido. But why cannot this be due to low thyroid hormones? In JN’s thread, awor provides a reference that shows that T3 increases androgen receptor expression. If pre-fin I had high thyroid hormones, then the “low libido despite good hormones” could be simply explained by low thyroid hormones, and not by some mysterious change in our body (which, by the way, some people managed to reverse by fixing cortisol and thyroid hormones).

[191]

I have showed how cortisol and thyroid hormones change androgen expression. What i am saying is in some of us we will benefit from these things but this is because of its impact on androgen expression - not due to an innate issue with the thyroid and adrenal axis. If it was a cure all more would have had benefit. Hardly anyone has. There are a few but more have failed.

[Mens_Rea]

@m_81

@19

I think the problem is most certainly to do with the lack of response to androgens. It is the most realistic explanation at present. Other hormonal treatments have not helped in a repeatable way and i have shown can act on the response to androgens. A change in the biology of our bodies is most likely the thing to explain the reason for the crash after stopping rather than a pathological explanation like an autoimmune process or a leaky gut.

I agree that some of us experience lack of response to androgens. At some point during my clomid treatment, all my sex hormones were better than those I had before propecia, but still had low libido. But why cannot this be due to low thyroid hormones? In JN’s thread, awor provides a reference that shows that T3 increases androgen receptor expression. If pre-fin I had high thyroid hormones, then the “low libido despite good hormones” could be simply explained by low thyroid hormones, and not by some mysterious change in our body (which, by the way, some people managed to reverse by fixing cortisol and thyroid hormones).

I think we need to accept that in many cases it might not actually be a basic hormonal issue, thus going by your T, E values etc isn’t really telling you as much as you think. I reckon in many cases (if not all) it’s a metabolism problem as evidenced by whacky 3-adiol-G readings and also incongruent blood and urine levels that we’ve seen in many subjects.