Recovered from PFS- Going back to hell to do an experiment

General Discussion
#1

Hello. I’ve been in and out of what we can call a “PFS state” for a couple of years now. The last 8 months I’ve been fully recovered with a full return of my pre anti androgen body.

As is expected, my hair loss came back with a vengeance. I thought I’d been pretty much recovered for years before this, but after the last 8 months I discovered that I was more in a middle ground, maybe what we could consider a low androgen state. The full return of oil, acne, libido and hair loss marked fully recovered territory very clearly for me.

I started taking rosemary oil a few weeks ago to combat some of the hair loss, not realizing that it’s an anti-androgen. This begins the experiment:

I’ve noticed this week that I’m starting to get low DHT symptoms. Depression, anxiety, lower libido, loss of oil and my hair loss ceased. I’m going to try and document some of the things I’ve done in the past to return to a pre-PFS state. I believe for cases like mine, where I’ve essentially fixed my other issues, we can learn a lot anecdotally about what might help in the case that this is simply a receptor issue, as I believe it is.

I think I can get back to a normal state again and maybe I can help others with understanding their situation, as I seem to have figured out at least my case of PFS. I’ll be around documenting progress and answering questions.

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#2

Hey Quest, thanks for coming back and reporting your recovery.

Did you also have penile shrinkage and numbness issues which have now resolved? What did you do in the past to help with your recovery?

I’d advise you nonetheless not to dabble in anti-androgens again. You know how it can turn out…

#3

Hey, yeah, I didn’t mean to mess with them, but because I did on accident, I may as well record how the recovery hopefully goes.

I had a lot of numbness and loss of size that was strictly due to the fact that my body just wasn’t getting the right chemicals/supply to my dick. It all reversed. I did a lot of things to put me in a better state health wise, overall it seems like exercise, sleep, healthy protein/fat rich diet, low stress and daily NAC have helped the most. I’ve noticed that when I pressed on my AR with small amounts of AAs I have seen big leaps in recovery and I’ll be “tapering” off of rosemary oil to hopefully not downregulate my receptors again. There is something about really mild inhibition of AR that seemed to make things work like normal again. Risky, obviously, but worth the risk in my experience, if you are healthy.

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#4

What anti-androgens did you use to “step” on your AR? Any insights into what you did to see an effect? Would like to test this responsibly, thanks!

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#5

What are anti-androgen things I should avoid? Have you drunk alcohol normally? I have abstained for about 10 months from alcohol and would like to reintroduce it to my life, but is it too risky?

#6

I used this shampoo EOD with a small amount of lic root in it for a long time, as well as every few months I used this supplement that had a few natural AA’s. I could feel the effect of them on my body, but every time I rebalanced from them I made further strides forward in recovery. It’s good to emphasize how important it is to be healthy for this to work properly, otherwise you could crash yourself. I run every day, gets lots of sun, sleep and have a good diet. These are all key things for my case.

I am playing russian roulette again, but it seems like playing that game is the only way to see progress for some, as unfortunate as that is.

#7

I can drink normally again, but I only have maybe 1-3 drinks max when I do drink. Sometimes I’ll have a drink or 2 every night, completely fine, like pre fin.

#8

Can you detail your case in a timeline format after you got PFS?
Just for didactic purpose

#9

very interesting. I noticed my pre-pfs state started coming back pretty quickly. within 4-6 days after last taking rosemary I was just about back to normal. body odor, oilyness, libido, energy, all DHT traits returned to normal.

We are obviously incredibly sensitive to 5ari’s, and taking rosemary stopped my shedding already. Makes me wonder if microdosing is potentially possible to maintain hair on a schedule of every 10 days or so. i’m being greedy and playing with fire, but I’m also confident that my routine and current health keeps me from falling back into a persistent PFS state.

Also I thought it was interesting to note that Androgen receptors can take 6-18 months to fully replenish. haven’t seen many talk about this relevance before. Might explain why when you nuke yourself with 5ari’s, given our heightened sensitivity, we are fucking our receptors big time, and the persistent effects can be partly attributed to the fact that it takes so long to rebuild these receptors.

either way, I’m going to keep experimenting with very low doses of rosemary oil/peppermint oil (forgot to mention I’ve been throwing some of that in my topical as well.) every 10 days or so and reporting progress. If I can dose at a level where I am not experiencing any symptoms, I am confident enough in my body that i’ll be able to maintain pre-pfs health while still managing hair loss.

The funny thing is, with the “goldilocks zone” of DHT inhibition, I am probably the most efficient. My hair is staying on my head, my oiliness isn’t insane, my libido is more practical (wanting sex 4-5 times a day is just absurd sometimes) and my energy stays consistent.

I can’t know how much “pressing” on my AR with mild AI’s has affected my recovery, but I do still think it’s made substantial improvements in my recovery. Similar to how body builders NEED to PCT properly to get off their influx of androgens to return to normal, it seems that unfortunately, many of us were in need of a similar PCT to return to normal.

#10

very simplified-

started taking fin in 2014, stopped after I noticed sides early on, returned to normal, even though I felt like shit.

hair loss continued like crazy so I hopped back on in the end of 2016. Crashed after using a product with a few AI’s, namely saw palmetto. I used for about a month and felt shitty again, like when I used fin.

made a mild recovery but crashed badly again early 2017, and crashed every month or so from then on out for probably a year. complete hell, full symptoms, completely debilitated at times for a good year on and off.

2018/2019 started fully focusing on my health. put everything into recovering, took time off work. got a new job doing manual labor so I could strengthen my body. biggest improvements were made from taking working out for hours every day, adequate sleep, balanced diet, sun, NAC and fasting. I would’ve thought I was “recovered” but I was actually only at about 75%. much better than the 0% I was at for so long.

2020/2021 plateaued, but made progress when I would occasionally take 5ari’s in mild doses. experimented with this for a while and started taking high doses of daily NAC.

late 2021 I maintained a full recovery, being happier with my body now than pre-pfs. in some ways still affected, but much healthier overall. No consistent morning boners, sleep issues and tinnitus only remaining symptoms. mild numbness from nerve damage but not a big deal.

been feeling completely recovered for about 9 months.

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#11

Did your gums grow back?

#12

lol never had gum issues afaik

#13

Gums never grow back, if you have gum recession, only surgery can resolve that.

#14

lol yeah I didn’t think someone who actually had full symptoms would use the phrase ‘goldilocks zone of DHT inhibition’.

So you have an opportunity to walk away relatively unscathed but you’re not going to. It’s like we have to experience the worst of this condition to outweigh the lure of hair and by then it’s too late. That sucks. Good luck man.

#16

myself and many others here had a very high androgen state before 5ari’s. this causes hair loss, excess oiliness, excess agression, acne, unpractically high sex drive etc and can even cause depression and energy issues just like being in a low androgen state. I don’t want to just be back in my pre-fin state, I want to find balance. can that exist with using 5ari’s responsibly? not sure. but I’ve been in this realm a lot longer than you and I know that such a thing exists where you are neither in too high or too low of an androgen state.

#17

Oh it exists. I was in it for twenty years and it existed until it didn’t. But it’s not goldilocks, it’s boiling frog.

#19

Do you mind telling me what symptoms you had when you crashed? You say you recovered and I could really use some encouragement as I feel bleak about my situation. I crashed hard 7 months ago.

#20

I had it all my man.

I felt completely disabled mentally and physically, had to stop working because I was collapsing at work and I had too much brain fog to do anything. depression and suicidal ideation was at uncontrollable levels. my sexual health was completely gone, I was cold and numb. Make sure you aren’t letting your dick stay cold for long periods, one of the few truly persistent things is nerve damage and unfortunately that will set in if you aren’t getting good blood flow.

everything has come back online, I have great energy and I’m happy again. I can run for miles, drink, fuck like a champ and eat basically anything I want. But I stay healthy because it’s a huge priority of mine.

you can get my better my guy. work on balancing your body, try to push yourself as much as possible physically, get a lot of sun and a lot of sleep every day. Eat low carb high protein. Remove all stressors. Fuck your job if it’s too stressful, it’s not worth your health. you got this.

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#21

Are you really saying that having a naturally high testosterone level is a sickness or a negative trait? Don’t you realize that trying to supress down this characteristic of ours is what fucked us up in the frist place?
In any case, when you said that you were fully recovered, I assume this means you were 100% like prefin, oil, sex drive, and agression inlcuded, right?

#22

could you explain how much rosemary oil you were taking? and times? were you just putting drops under your tongue?