Rat study for testing protocols. Realistic or not?

General Discussion
#22

This approach assumes that it would be easy to “make” an animal model. Unfortunately, this central assumption is wrong. If we had that model, we would be half there in terms of understanding this problem.

Specifically, what we need is a disease model of PFS. We know from humans that only a small percentage of those that consume finasteride get PFS. There are some predisposing factors that make us different from those that can happily use finasteride and not get hurt. Those are either genetic and/or epigenetic. Some get PFS after only a a few pills, others can take it for a decade before PFS strikes. There again, we need to understand the underlying difference between those extremes.

Only with that knowledge can we hope to engineer a disease model that will get “real” PFS when fed finasteride for a short while.

A good disease (animal) model is the holy grail of medical research. To reach that, we need to understand what the genetic driving factors are behind PFS. A good start to this would be if more patients would participate in our 23andMe project.

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#23

Thanks for the reply. Just to clarify, are you saying that it would not be possible to tell if a rat has PFS?

#24

In your estimation roughly, how many steps would you say are required before we get to that point?

Suppose Baylor study if they really do well and give us what it was designed for, is 1 part

Then the 23 and me test is another.

In your estimation, how many parts might be required before we get a disease model?

#25

It probably isn’t easy to tell if a rat has pfs, but that is not what I wrote. My point was that you can’t just feed a rat finasteride and then assume it has biological equivalent of pfs (not just depressive behavior, or whatever). First, we don’t even know exactly what pfs is at a molecular level, and second if we did, one would need to genetically predispose the animal to be susceptible to get pfs when exposed to fin.

Idk, there are still too many variables open at this point. If we get really lucky, then 23andMe data might reveal some SNPs of interest, which would help us pinpoint some genes to investigate. And then if Baylor hits it out of the park, their data, combined with the 23andMe data just might reveal something interesting. My guess would be that these efforts will show us where we need to focus on next. At that point I am of the opinion that we need to go commercial as opposed to just working with academics. The academic route is just too slow. We need the data faster, then the academics can publish whenever they feel like it - we won’t care.

In any case, I doubt that we will have a chance to find anything before we have at least double the 23andMe genomes compared to what has been submitted, that means at least another 50, better 100. It would be great if all the survey takers also provided their genomes, that would be really helpful.

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#27

To be deleted

#28

Guys we need another 100 participants at least but the more we have the better.
We need a big push from this community. Looking at the survey results so far we can determine that 75% of participants have a tertiary education.

So we are looking at University students and graduates as majors users of Propecia.
We have our target audience!
All we need to do is reach out and start emailing.

That begins with emailing all your friends on social media and asking them to forward your message. Those of you who are young and have friends in Uni or have graduated have access to the people we need.
We are looking at an age group between 23 and 38 years old as the main catchment.

This is what you can send.

If anyone is taking Propecia please read this story. Merck has hidden the drug risks of Propecia which has already been linked to multiple suicides and over 15,000 patients reporting serious on going side effects.

A US Judge has allowed Merck to continue hiding the serious side effects of its drug Propecia from the general public.

For anyone taking Propecia you have no idea what damage this drug could be doing to your body. You need to ask yourself why would a reputable drug company hide the serious side effects of one of its drugs and who does that benefit?

Reuter’s has now asked for the release of the secret Propecia papers.

This is not the first time one of Mercks drugs has been linked to concerns about patient safety.

In 2004 Merck had to recall its popular arthritis drug from the market Vioxx which was linked to 140,000 heart attacks that resulted in approximately 60,000 deaths.

#29

Thanks for your answer, always glad to get el jefe’s opinion :smiley:

I’ve mentioned before that survey data could see an increase in participation if we provide some sort of monetary incentive, even if it’s as small as 20 bucks.

Ive been told that it may not be a good idea to give incentive to surveys, but would it be possible to do it for the 23& me project?

perhaps something like paying for 1/4th of the price of the kit for each participant, idk.

Another thought is we could target these facebook groups to participate in this message board using facebook ads-- they are super cheap. You can run them for something as small as A few bucks a day I think, and there are thousands of users in multiple groups for SSRI and PAS.

all of this could be a really bad idea, but i’m just throwing it in the air to be considered.

cheers

#30

If the software guys add another counter plus another marker to usernames for completing 23andme test participation would probably increase significantly.

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#31

I’ve already contacted one PFS FB group about the survey and asked them to promote it on another forum.

If anyone has the names of these SSRI and PAS groups on FB I will do the same.

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#33

PAS is the hardest to push…and this french PAS FB group seems ignored the survey request?

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#34

Can you give me the name of the PAS group and I will try to get this sorted.

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#35

Hey Awor, not trying to add to the moderators plates, but does this forum software allow for flairs or badges for its members? It may be nice to have a badge for each project (I know we have the checkmark for the survey). This isn’t to shame anyone who hasn’t completed a project, but rather so that in conversation with one another we can also promote projects.

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