What do you guys think of Sibelios idea/request?
I would donate money earmarked specifically for such a study. I think if we have a concrete study design with a clear goal - i.e. first step, try to recreate PFS in rats - we will be able to raise a good amount of money.
How much would the study cost?
We could identify a couple of research groups who have done work with finasteride/dutasteride and rats and ask them if they would be willing to do such a study and how much it would cost.
This idea is very positive but it was suggested back in Dec 18 so why hasn’t anything happened.
Melcangi might know if we can induce pfs in rats so it might be worth emailing him.
I have a theory that those with the worst neurological symptoms are the most creative or outgoing here. Why? I think creative people are able to access more of their prefrontal cortex. Therefore PFS is able to access more of their brain. This could be identified in future surveys. If I’m right then we have one group of patients who are more susceptible to PFS.
we could start a what’s app group if people want to get involved.
Why hasn’t the Foundation set up a rat study to test PFS protocols? Do they think it could work? Maybe someone could email them as the study may not be viable.
How do you make sure the rats have PFS?
Yes, that’s the main issue I suspect.
Might there just be a chance that what’s happened here happens in the rats?
By which I mean, say you manage to induce PFS in rats and can reliably test for it. You throw all the supposed cures at the rats in rat-doses and then none of them get cured. Then one of them gets cured with Tribulus, then you never replicate that again - no more rats are fixed from Tribulus. Then in a month repeating everything over and over Gingko cures another one, but doesn’t cure any others, and didn’t cure any before that one. Then one of your other rats from the first batch you didn’t euthanise just gets better where none of the others do, again even if you can even reliably diagnose PFS and PFS cured in a rat.
If I just took a massive dump on the idea I’m sorry for it. But it does seem like the same circle we’ve tried here before on (VERY willing) human guinea-pigs desperate to get back to where they were, who can reliably report symptoms too. We had Solvepfs and other forums… lots of protocols and nothing we could replicate reliably. Don’t we think it’d just be the same thing except more work in determining what a rat’s feeling?
(EDIT - also when I say above I am sorry then I do mean it, if I’m stomping on hopes there. I think (probably dangerously ofc) that human self-experimentation is the way, which I’ll carry on with I must say. I am certain given the many years of PFS that there’s not one-size cure for it. But where to look for a fix for the 2+ types of PFS then who knows. Where DO we start even? How you respond to masturbation? To increasing or reducing androgens? There’s not even one thing that PFS seems to be as far as I’ve read.)
This is a possible eventuality. But it’s unlikely if the same weight-adjusted dosage is given. Who knows, it’s all speculation.
The difference is that it’s a controlled environment and you can test 100s of rats potentially.
- Can rats get PFS?
- How can you reliably tell if a rat has PFS?
- How many rats are needed to get a decent number of PFS rats? I. E. do you need potentially 1000s of rats for 10 PFS rats?
- How different do rats react to humans when it comes to PFS and protocols?
- How likely is it that one will find a cure? I. E. is shooting in the dark worth the investment, even if it’s a much more controlled environment than a forum.
Yes definitely makes sense on all.
I’d also add in the maddening confusion of some things which might cure one rat make another one worse. And also how you’d find out if a rat is feeling worse or not. But who knows, there might be something consistent. You’d definitely not run out of protocols to try!
It hasn’t happened so there’s little point discussing the hypothetical.
If I were a rat, researchers would be able to tell I have PFS very easily…
You throw the rats a piece of rope and the ones that try to hang themselves will likely have PFS. The rest will simply sit around watching.
If we knew which genes led to PFS that would be much easier. Melcangi identified one gene to do with Methylation.
There maybe some obvious signs if their DHT lowered assuming they have DHT.
At what point do we stop being victims of PFS and start doing something to take back our lives?
And phase 0 of this study, of course, should be to directly establish (i.e. in a placebo controlled study) that PFS exists in the first place, which believe it or not, has not been done in animal studies so far, to my knowledge. It is as simple as giving 100 matched pairs of rats a single dose of finasteride vs. placebo and then counting how many in each condition permanently lost their sexual function. Has any study in history been easier and more straightforward than this?
Rat as an animal model for male erectile function evaluation in sexual medicine research.
Animal models have contributed, to a great extent, to our understanding and advancement in the field of sexual medicine. Many current medical and surgical therapies in sexual medicine are the direct result of the development of such animal models.
So we can determine if a rat gets ED from taking Propecia.
Also, once you have rats with PFS it will be relatively simple to test the heck out of them to see what’s wrong with them. Unlike previous studies, you are only going to test rats with PFS, not the whole group who took finasteride, which is going to give a much more valid signal of the relevant abnormalities.
I’m on-side @Sibelio. Why is this approach not being advocated by the foundation? It is extremely low cost and high reward.