Prostatitis treatment as a novel insight into Finasteride related problems

[toadstool]

@bostonusa2009

I think you misunderstood, the prostate should be 14-15 cc’s… The doc literally said “I’m very happy with this…” He was expecting 20-30cc, but was happy with the size, indicating that he didn’t think that was a medical issue or the reason for my troubles.

But it possible to have too small a prostate? Could one shrink their prostate via finasteride so much that it screws up T to DHT conversion (still an issue for me as of last testing)?

Regardless, I guess it does not necessarily matter what size it is, only if there IS inflammation, and that is subject to interpretation. Something’s responsible for me having to take 10-12 trips to the pisser every day, for my dull ache down there when I sit, and occasional radiating pain, the E.D., the stinging sensation I felt when ejaculating inside girls whilst hopped up on Cialis, and of course the fact that can barely feel those drug-induced erections, which yield reduced “squirt power” and reduced money shots.

It seems to be just another clueless doctor’s opinion.

I tried googling a normal size and most website’s show 20cc as a normal size. I couldn’t any medical studies, otherwise I would have posted it.

I can’t find anything that indicates that 14cc or even close to it, is a normal size for the prostate. This is almost like the mentality that a higher body temperature indicates problems, but a lowered one means nothing.

How can a prostate that is at least 40% smaller than what is considered a normal size not have any impact on the body. It would certainly explain your need to piss more and less ejaculate.

I’ll try to do more research later this week. Maybe we can learn something from the men on the prostate forums. Could it be as simple as the drug did what it was designed to do and that is the cause of the problem?

Not sure because in theory if that were true, you could just take DHT and it would bring your prostate back to a “normal” size… However, many have tried taking dht and felt worse and etc…

[191]

solonjk how are you? Are you cured yet?

[Oscar]

@J89

…the pain around the whole genital area.

Which almost noone has. Not really what youd expect from 1800 men with chronic prostatitis is it? Since solonjk didnt develop (obvious) prostatitis symptoms years after stopping Fin, maybe he only caught prostatitis years after stopping?? Doesnt that make most sense?

@solonjk

Last but not least. Some ppl seem to under-estimate what an inflammation is.
The overproduction of harmfull cytokines, pro-inflammatory norandrenaline, Tumor necr. factor and related substances directly attack HPA. That means that as long as you harbor an inflammation somewhere irrespective of the local effects the first and most important issue is that your brain will get stress signals. Signals that will impair it from proper production of pre-hormonal substances. Swifts in ideal brain neurochemistry and production of unwanted chemicals and hormones to control this inflammation.

@solonjk

Look some people tend not to understand or pretend not to understand even the basics.
How can someone have sex when his organs are not in proper health? Do you even know what inflammation means? How can a hormone get converted properly when the tissues where it is supposed to act are not functioning but instead are flourished with inflammatory cytokines, leukotrienes, prostaglandins which are produced inconsistently and all this feeds back to your hypothalamus to mess things even more. Inflammation is a sort of depression on its own, and you are asking why testosterone doesn’t make you feel better? The only thing that it will do in the long run is make you feel worse.

I went to the expense of testing inflammatory cytokines directly as well as running a high sensitivity C-Reactive Protein test. All in an attempt to find any inflammatory markers in my blood. See here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4793&start=20. All of these tests came back within range and very, very low (although maybe not IL-1beta). I really dont see how this could be if prostatitis is responsible for other symptoms.
(Therefore I believe IF inflammation is causing my symptoms, and IF we are seeing people feel better after taking anti-inflammatories, the inflammtion is confined to the nervous system. Just an idea.)

[bluecloud87]

He meets the doctor on Tuesday (tomorrow) i believe.

[gefinauser]

Yo, first of all, i’d appriciate if you won’t troll-derail this to the ground this time, Oscar. I’m talking about further posts, that post is fair game. We’re just trying our best to recover/figure out a way to heal.

Secondly, i came to do this first before my parents so listen up: my appointment ended about hour ago. Kos is awesome etc etc but here’s what matters: yes, i have an infected chronic prostrate and i mean HELLA infected. Georgiadis showed me and explained the ultrasound - i barely had any uninfected areas, healthy prostrate tissue. Both prostrate and the seminal vessicles? - the area where prostrate fluid is generated is badly infected. Judging from my story, he thinks that i suffered from prostatis 2-3 years before finasteride. Georgiadis still stands behind the hypothesis (since all the finasteride people he has treated seems to share the similiarity) that for us the finasteride usually shrinks the prostrate and that is usually okay - however, for us with chronic prostatis the finasteride causes the escalation of the already ongoing infection.

Chronic prostatis won’t pass or go away unless it is treated properly. It has to be treated as soon as possible as the microbes cause infection and infection causes changes in the prostrate that further the infection. (Just don’t get ridicilous loans immidiately and rush to him ofc, i mean try to figure out a plan which gets you the money to pull this out with minimal loans and losses and everything) Eventually, eg.in 10 years it gets to a point that the people with the infection will have like a 6x chance to get a prostrate cancer? Prostrate for my age should be something like 13? to 14 centimeters, mine was 19 cm. I was there at his clinic with another finasteride guy apparently, he said shortly that he had an infection too before departing.

Furthermore, when he finally did the fingering part deep down, jesus christ i felt how something incredibly irritating flowed into my penis, i grumbled and groaned that fact to Pavlos. The feeling didn’t pass for awhile so i guess its the completely infected prostrate fluid.
I’ll be taking 4 different antibiotics starting tomorrow for 15 days, then we see what is the situation.

Lot of this is just off the top of my memory so i still need to ensure all the facts and study this but… yeah, it’s just a gut feel but maybe we got some hope now, even if it’s just one doctor.

[Tpenf]

In the nicest possible way thats great news!!!

[Mens_Rea]

@gefinauser

Yo, first of all, i’d appriciate if you won’t troll-derail this to the ground this time, Oscar. I’m talking about further posts, that post is fair game. We’re just trying our best to recover/figure out a way to heal.

Secondly, i came to do this first before my parents so listen up: my appointment ended about hour ago. Kos is awesome etc etc but here’s what matters: yes, i have an infected chronic prostrate and i mean HELLA infected. Georgiadis showed me and explained the ultrasound - i barely had any uninfected areas, healthy prostrate tissue. Both prostrate and the seminal vessicles? - the area where prostrate fluid is generated is badly infected. Judging from my story, he thinks that i suffered from prostatis 2-3 years before finasteride. Georgiadis still stands behind the hypothesis (since all the finasteride people he has treated seems to share the similiarity) that for us the finasteride usually shrinks the prostrate and that is usually okay - however, for us with chronic prostatis the finasteride causes the escalation of the already ongoing infection.

Chronic prostatis won’t pass or go away unless it is treated properly. It has to be treated as soon as possible as the microbes cause infection and infection causes changes in the prostrate that further the infection. (Just don’t get ridicilous loans immidiately and rush to him ofc, i mean try to figure out a plan which gets you the money to pull this out with minimal loans and losses and everything) Eventually, eg.in 10 years it gets to a point that the people with the infection will have like a 6x chance to get a prostrate cancer? Prostrate for my age should be something like 13? to 14 centimeters, mine was 19 cm. I was there at his clinic with another finasteride guy apparently, he said shortly that he had an infection too before departing.

Furthermore, when he finally did the fingering part deep down, jesus christ i felt how something incredibly irritating flowed into my penis, i grumbled and groaned that fact to Pavlos. The feeling didn’t pass for awhile so i guess its the completely infected prostrate fluid.
I’ll be taking 4 different antibiotics starting tomorrow for 15 days, then we see what is the situation.

Lot of this is just off the top of my memory so i still need to ensure all the facts and study this but… yeah, it’s just a gut feel but maybe we got some hope now, even if it’s just one doctor.

So 15 days without any physical massage?

Does that mean you’ll need to stay over more than a month in all liklihood? A month is the maximum i could realistically get off work.

[m_81]

Prostatitis before propecia? mmm…

One month BEFORE propecia, at the age of 28, I got an abdomen ultrasound because of a chronic gastritis (not sure why they prescribed this exam). The exam checked all internal organs, including the prostate. The report says that my prostate was of the “normal size of 19 cc”
Doesn’t it need to be bigger in case of prostatitis?

[toadstool]

It is great news to finally hear this from someone else…

[visionquest99]

@gefinauser

Secondly, i came to do this first before my parents so listen up: my appointment ended about hour ago. Kos is awesome etc etc but here’s what matters

Thanks so much for the detailed account of what took place.

Let’s hope this is the start of your recovery.

Anxiously awaiting your updates

visionq

[Xhorndog]

@gefinauser

Yo, first of all, i’d appriciate if you won’t troll-derail this to the ground this time, Oscar. I’m talking about further posts, that post is fair game. We’re just trying our best to recover/figure out a way to heal.

Secondly, i came to do this first before my parents so listen up: my appointment ended about hour ago. Kos is awesome etc etc but here’s what matters: yes, i have an infected chronic prostrate and i mean HELLA infected. Georgiadis showed me and explained the ultrasound - i barely had any uninfected areas, healthy prostrate tissue. Both prostrate and the seminal vessicles? - the area where prostrate fluid is generated is badly infected. Judging from my story, he thinks that i suffered from prostatis 2-3 years before finasteride. Georgiadis still stands behind the hypothesis (since all the finasteride people he has treated seems to share the similiarity) that for us the finasteride usually shrinks the prostrate and that is usually okay - however, for us with chronic prostatis the finasteride causes the escalation of the already ongoing infection.

Chronic prostatis won’t pass or go away unless it is treated properly. It has to be treated as soon as possible as the microbes cause infection and infection causes changes in the prostrate that further the infection. (Just don’t get ridicilous loans immidiately and rush to him ofc, i mean try to figure out a plan which gets you the money to pull this out with minimal loans and losses and everything) Eventually, eg.in 10 years it gets to a point that the people with the infection will have like a 6x chance to get a prostrate cancer? Prostrate for my age should be something like 13? to 14 centimeters, mine was 19 cm. I was there at his clinic with another finasteride guy apparently, he said shortly that he had an infection too before departing.

Furthermore, when he finally did the fingering part deep down, jesus christ i felt how something incredibly irritating flowed into my penis, i grumbled and groaned that fact to Pavlos. The feeling didn’t pass for awhile so i guess its the completely infected prostrate fluid.
I’ll be taking 4 different antibiotics starting tomorrow for 15 days, then we see what is the situation.

Lot of this is just off the top of my memory so i still need to ensure all the facts and study this but… yeah, it’s just a gut feel but maybe we got some hope now, even if it’s just one doctor.

Getfinauser, thank you so much, man, for promptly updating us. I do hope that this is the beginning of the end for you, and potentially all of us!

Whenever you get a chance, can you provide more details on:

1. Brief recap of your major symptoms (i.e. complete E.D., low libido, brain fog, urinary frequency, dull ache in testicle/prostate area?) & how long you were on finasteride, how long off.
2. The general appointment, the diagnostic tests (his website says they can scan the kidneys, etc, etc)
3. What most indicated a problem? Was it the size of your prostate or his visual inspection of the uro-genital area via ultrasound, or his DRE? (At age 32, my prostate is 14cc according to my recent TRUS, but you mentioned that the shrinking of the prostate via finasteride was ok in and of itself; that the doc suspects that it has some other action on infection).
4. Do the prostate massages begin after the 15 days of antibiotics or simultaneously?

THANKS AGAIN! GOOD LUCK!!

[Frustrated]

Gefinuser - Thanks for reporting back. Can you tell us what bacteria he found and what antibiotics he decided to put you on?

This is encouraging news, but I’m personally going to wait for a few more positive reports before I get any hopes up for myself. It still really bothers me that Dr. Georgiadis’ expectation for a normal sized prostate is about half the size of what every other doctor has reported. Hopefully somebody will be able to reconcile this discrepancy since it doesn’t make any sense.

[Xhorndog]

Some info on Getfinauser I just dug up so that he doesn’t have to type redundant stuff:

gefinauser
Post subject: Re: SURVEY - everyone please post!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:21 pm

Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:07 pm
Posts: 81
Age: 21
Drug: Propecia
Usage: 30d
Started: 17 Oct 2010
Stopped: 19 Nov 2010
Location: Finland

1. NUMBER MONTHS OF USING PROPECIA?
   1 month
2. DOSE?
   1.25mg every day
3. AGE?
   21
4. NUMBER OF MONTHS FOR NORMAL SEXUAL FUNCTION TO OCCUR AFTER DISCONTINUING THE USE OF PROPECIA? (IF YOU HAVE NOT RECOVERED, PLEASE PUT N/A)
   N/A

2.7 months since the drug, recently got even worse after one month of peace and small progress.

And his story:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4823&p=33550#p33550

[bluecloud87]

…

[joetz]

gefinauser did you ever have a PSA test? From what I understand that test indicatates a prostate infection

[bluecloud87]

@joetz

gefinauser did you ever have a PSA test? From what I understand that test indicatates a prostate infection

A PFA test is to screen for cancer, or enlarged prostate not infections as far as i am aware.

[Mew]

Just to play devil’s advocate here for a second – if people have been to numerous urologists who have done many diagnostic tests to confirm you do not have prostatitis, why disregard this? I would think it’s probably a safe bet that you don’t have prostatitis if that’s the case.

What boggles me is people are willing to disagree with their initial, multiple diagnoses (ie, nothing wrong down there) and are instead choosing to pay big sums of money to fly halfway around the world to visit a random uro (who has no publications that I can find – can anyone else?) who does same or similar tests – an individual that doesn’t believe Finasteride has caused our longterm issues, openly states only HE knows how to truly diagnose and treat prostatitis, that others in the profession are clueless about the condition, and that he CANNOT teach others how to diagnose prostatitis or simply WILL NOT (you have to visit him only – see details: viewtopic.php?p=36590#p36590 ) and once you visit, lo and behold, he determines YOU DO have prostatitis, and then offers to sell you various treatments which costs $, which may also put your health at risk (ie, powerful antibiotics, forceful prostate massages etc).

Does anyone else not see the red flags here? If everyone who has been previously diagnosed by multiple professionals as NOT HAVING prostatitis, goes to his clinic and is then told they have DO prostatitis, surely alarm bells should be ringing – who to believe? It would be interesting to see what other doctors have to say about Dr. Georgiadis’ diagnoses if you have copies of your tests to bring to them.

I do hope people think about this seriously and objectively before making such decisions, based on one poster’s initial experience who himself has admitted to use of crippling antibiotics in the past and various other health conditions (no offense solonjk, but your past history is not clearcut with just Finasteride use). I see from getafinuser’s recent post he was now told he has prostatitis and some other guy in the office was also told he had prostatitis – is there anyone that DOESN’T get told they have prostatitis at his clinic? This is a serious, honest question… unfortunately there’s no way to really know the answer, especially as money is involved.

The scenario therefore personally makes me very wary, but I am a skeptical person by nature. I do wish those luck who are embarking on this path and hopefully you will find some resolution from any pelvic or prostate issues you are dealing with, if anything is TRULY found (ie, confirmed by multiple Uros in Greece and back home).

Personally, I’ve been tested for prostatitis and had a transrectal ultrasound which turned up nothing out of the ordinary. For me, prostatitis is not the issue, and never was or will be – Finasteride usage, and all its effects of obliterating 5AR2 across multiple pathways, androgen deprivation, and neurosteroid inhibition, within first few days and for 11 months after, is still the root cause. I’ve already given my thoughts on PFS and how the problem is directly attributed to Finasteride use vs other causes, here: viewtopic.php?p=37406#p37406

Regardless, good luck to those going to Greece, I do hope you get your issues sorted out in some capacity. If treatment is positive in some capacity then great, if negative, then you’ve ruled out another area to investigate in the future.

[toadstool]

@Mew

Just to play devil’s advocate here for a second – if people have been to numerous urologists who have done many diagnostic tests to confirm you do not have prostatitis, why disregard this? I would think it’s probably a safe bet that you don’t have prostatitis if that’s the case.

What boggles me is people are willing to disagree with their initial, multiple diagnoses (ie, nothing wrong down there) and are instead choosing to pay big sums of money to fly halfway around the world to visit a random uro (who has no publications that I can find – can anyone else?) who does same or similar tests – an individual that doesn’t believe Finasteride has caused our longterm issues, openly states only HE knows how to truly diagnose and treat prostatitis, that others in the profession are clueless about the condition, and that he CANNOT teach others how to diagnose prostatitis or simply WILL NOT (you have to visit him only – see details: viewtopic.php?p=36590#p36590 ) and once you visit, lo and behold, he determines YOU DO have prostatitis, and then offers to sell you various treatments which costs $, which may also put your health at risk (ie, powerful antibiotics, forceful prostate massages etc).

Does anyone else not see the red flags here? If everyone who has been previously diagnosed by multiple professionals as NOT HAVING prostatitis, goes to his clinic and is then told they have DO prostatitis, surely alarm bells should be ringing – who to believe? It would be interesting to see what other doctors have to say about Dr. Georgiadis’ diagnoses if you have copies of your tests to bring to them.

I do hope people think about this seriously and objectively before making such decisions, based on one poster’s initial experience who himself has admitted to use of crippling antibiotics in the past and various other health conditions (no offense solonjk, but your past history is not clearcut with just Finasteride use). I see from getafinuser’s recent post he was now told he has prostatitis and some other guy in the office was also told he had prostatitis – is there anyone that DOESN’T get told they have prostatitis at his clinic? This is a serious, honest question… unfortunately there’s no way to really know the answer, especially as money is involved.

The scenario therefore personally makes me very wary, but I am a skeptical person by nature. I do wish those luck who are embarking on this path and hopefully you will find some resolution from any pelvic or prostate issues you are dealing with, if anything is TRULY found (ie, confirmed by multiple Uros in Greece and back home).

Personally, I’ve been tested for prostatitis and had a transrectal ultrasound which turned up nothing out of the ordinary. For me, prostatitis is not the issue, and never was or will be – Finasteride usage, and all its effects of obliterating 5AR2 across multiple pathways, androgen deprivation, and neurosteroid inhibition, within first few days and for 11 months after, is still the root cause. I’ve already given my thoughts on PFS and how the problem is directly attributed to Finasteride use vs other causes, here: viewtopic.php?p=37406#p37406

Regardless, good luck to those going to Greece, I do hope you get your issues sorted out in some capacity. If treatment is positive in some capacity then great, if negative, then you’ve ruled out another area to investigate in the future.

Hey Mew, allow me to play devils advocate a third time, who gives a shit as long as he can cure people? I don’t have to find the absolute positive root cause for why this happened or how… If I find something that works I don’t care how it works, just as long as it works…

As Dr. G has said, U.S and European urologists are in the dark ages compared to his understanding prostatitis… I’m sure half the doctors in the US are lazy assholes such as myself who didn’t study and got C’s in college…Do you really want someone who got a C in med school digging in your ass? Not every doctor is an expert, you should know that better then anyone.

OH, and btw, he has posted a few things on Pub Med… xHorndog has posted them previously in this thread…

<3

[toadstool]

@Mew

Just to play devil’s advocate here for a second – if people have been to numerous urologists who have done many diagnostic tests to confirm you do not have prostatitis, why disregard this? I would think it’s probably a safe bet that you don’t have prostatitis if that’s the case.

What boggles me is people are willing to disagree with their initial, multiple diagnoses (ie, nothing wrong down there) and are instead choosing to pay big sums of money to fly halfway around the world to visit a random uro (who has no publications that I can find – can anyone else?) who does same or similar tests – an individual that doesn’t believe Finasteride has caused our longterm issues, openly states only HE knows how to truly diagnose and treat prostatitis, that others in the profession are clueless about the condition, and that he CANNOT teach others how to diagnose prostatitis or simply WILL NOT (you have to visit him only – see details: viewtopic.php?p=36590#p36590 ) and once you visit, lo and behold, he determines YOU DO have prostatitis, and then offers to sell you various treatments which costs $, which may also put your health at risk (ie, powerful antibiotics, forceful prostate massages etc).

Does anyone else not see the red flags here? If everyone who has been previously diagnosed by multiple professionals as NOT HAVING prostatitis, goes to his clinic and is then told they have DO prostatitis, surely alarm bells should be ringing – who to believe? It would be interesting to see what other doctors have to say about Dr. Georgiadis’ diagnoses if you have copies of your tests to bring to them.

I do hope people think about this seriously and objectively before making such decisions, based on one poster’s initial experience who himself has admitted to use of crippling antibiotics in the past and various other health conditions (no offense solonjk, but your past history is not clearcut with just Finasteride use). I see from getafinuser’s recent post he was now told he has prostatitis and some other guy in the office was also told he had prostatitis – is there anyone that DOESN’T get told they have prostatitis at his clinic? This is a serious, honest question… unfortunately there’s no way to really know the answer, especially as money is involved.

The scenario therefore personally makes me very wary, but I am a skeptical person by nature. I do wish those luck who are embarking on this path and hopefully you will find some resolution from any pelvic or prostate issues you are dealing with, if anything is TRULY found (ie, confirmed by multiple Uros in Greece and back home).

Personally, I’ve been tested for prostatitis and had a transrectal ultrasound which turned up nothing out of the ordinary. For me, prostatitis is not the issue, and never was or will be – Finasteride usage, and all its effects of obliterating 5AR2 across multiple pathways, androgen deprivation, and neurosteroid inhibition, within first few days and for 11 months after, is still the root cause. I’ve already given my thoughts on PFS and how the problem is directly attributed to Finasteride use vs other causes, here: viewtopic.php?p=37406#p37406

Regardless, good luck to those going to Greece, I do hope you get your issues sorted out in some capacity. If treatment is positive in some capacity then great, if negative, then you’ve ruled out another area to investigate in the future.

Oh and mew, I’ve been diagnosed by multiple doctors saying that I do not having PFS and nothing is wrong with me… I guess I’m wrong about that also… That is essentially what youre saying…

[Mew]

Toadstool, you know as well as I do aside from standard hormonal assays, there is no existing test for PFS; there ARE standard tests for prostatitis (cultures, secretions, ultrasounds etc) – it’s a big difference. The good thing is we now have 2 papers available to us about PFS which can be of use with docs to help educate them on this issue (Traish and Irwig’s).

I’m not suggesting there is nothing wrong with you – I’m saying the prostatitis situation simply doesn’t add up for me and I would assume for a certain percentage of others as well. For example, are you suggesting that every person who took Finasteride and got persistent side effects had a chronic prostatitis infection at a young age prior to Finasteride use? How would this even be statistically probable, or possible?

There are many symptoms of PFS (many of which are neurocognitive and are directly attributed to neurosteroid inhibition by the drug) – to try and pin them ALL on prostatitis is to simply disregard all the published evidence of everything else Finasteride DOES do.

Yes I agree there is a prostatic component to our problem (Finasteride affects MANY body systems). Finasteride directly affects the prostate – that’s what it was designed to do, atrophy and involute the prostate, especially for men with BPH (and androgen deprivation for prostate cancer). The consequences of such prostatic destruction is also well documented, as occurs to men who undergo radical prostatectomies (prostate removal):

• Penile shrinkage and fibrotic changes
• increased urination
• genital numbness
• ED

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=993
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2081
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1007

Finasteride chemically castrates the prostate:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1402
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=201

Therefore, by obliterating your prostate with Fin, it is a relevant explanation for such similar side effects seen in PFS users. As well, we know androgen deprivation can also contribute to ED, penile fibrosis and genital shrinkage, as has been documented in various papers on ADT for prostate cancer.

I will say though, its conceivable that during this process, a form of prostatitis may have taken hold in some susceptible individuals – however, prostatitis does not address the many hormonal imbalances (ie skewed T/E2 ratios, abnormally low Adiol-G values) or physical changes to one’s body (gynecomastia, documented to result from elevated E2, body-wide muscle loss/feminization post-Fin, muscle twitches etc) which are a common result of interfering with androgenic/neurologic action in the body.

Hope that helps clarify my position – if I was having constant perineal pain, I would certainly consider investigating further. I did undergo the standard prostatitis tests and nothing turned up, so for now I am focusing my efforts on what I consider to be the more likely areas of investigation (ie, loss of androgenic action post-Fin).

I do wish the rest of you well if you turn up positive results in relieving some of your prostatic symptoms, however the initial posts about this doctor’s methods did raise some red flags for me. Good luck.