"prostate symptoms" are really pelvic floor/perinium?

Symptoms Physical
#61

I think the guy in Scotland you are referring to is Bill Taylor. Can you post links to success stories with this guy? He only seems to be a physiotherapist. That Budgie guy that Oki is speaking to above visited him once fortnightly for 2 years and had no benefit. Still suffers, and this guy didn’t even take finsateride from what i can gather.

Not trying to shit on this idea too much, because i am an advocate of the prostate theory, but i do not see much success (if any) in curing the condition.

It does make alot of sense to me though - finasteride absolutely nackered the prostate region and all the vessels to a point that they are more than likely incurable. In turn, flows (blood + hormonal) to and from the testes is completely impaired, giving rise to all the associated low T issues. I read on Wikipedia that 95% of male T comes from the Testes - That’s a whole fucking lot of the bodys T production, pretty much all of it. I’ve no idea why it happened to us sub-set of individuals and why some went off and on before without problems, but i have a hunch it is to do with the things we all did when stopping the medication (others while on it). For example, i absolutely shit myself when my nuts started shrinking in the last 1-2 days of use, i quit immediately and started hitting the gym at every opportunity. I was also travelling alot with work, so under some stress. In addition I forced myself to ejaculate shit loads during this period, purely out of panic. I think the fact that 5-ar was re-activated, flooding the body with DHT, compounded by the fact i was really over-working the prostate region (with excess exercise and wanking) meant that a lightning bolt him my prostate area, and during a time when finasteride, an absolute killer drug for the prostate region, was flowing through my blood. Following this incident, T flows from testes to the body is completely impaired and adrenals start flooding the system with cortisol due to the inflammation, which in turn affects sleep, something i am yet to sort out. So for some of us, depending on how healthy your adrenals are and also how badly your disruption to the prostate region is, the adrenals are heavily taxed, which basically means we have CFS or Adrenal Fatigue and all the associated issues of this. I am absolutely convinced of this now having seen how my body is reacting over the past 10 months.

Personally, i think the mechanisms described above are easier to fathom and seem more reasonable over any other theory proposed on this forum, but then i don’t really understand the androgen receptor thing. The one thing that stands out for me on this is why would to be low in T if androgen resistant? Isn’t AIS & PAS more about T’s inability to unlock the receptor and express itself, rather than being low to start with - so why is it low? That part i do not get but willing for Mew or other to fill me in. Also, fin blocked 5ar which stopped conversion of T to DHT - T should have remained the same or slightly raised throughout, no rush of T when stopping the drug, so why is the receptor affected? Does DHT have a receptor? If it’s affected, what’s DHT got to do with muscle loss & brain fog? There’s some loose ends on this theory for me. Anyway, 2 mainstream schools of thought, but i think the more complex issues of androgen receptors and the like will turn out to be a red herring. If this was the issue, then why wouldn’t fin screw everyone in this way when DHT rushed back in? It’s something unique about what we all did as individuals while on fin and during the 1 month recovery.

Oh, lastly, something that i forgot about is that towards the end of my use (last 2-3 weeks) i noticed that my ejaculations were so powerful, literally thumping from the prostate region and loads of semen. Sorry to get grusome but i was liking it alot so increased masterbation, it was then that i noticed nuts started to shrink. Then stopped only for my world to be blown to pieces. I am sure something happened to the prostate then, something very very bad

#62

I don’t understand the androgen receptor thing either, but the hallmark of the problem is androgen resistance.
Even if the flow of T from the testes was fucked, we should still be able to respond to exogenous testosterone through TRT. Barely anyone is from what is now quite a large case group, myself included.
Think of this: men who get testicular cancer and have to get their balls removed still respond fine to TRT.
spstriken also suggested a similar group were men who had some kind of auto immune problem after getting a vasectomy, but of the couple of guys I read about who got low T symptoms they were again cured by TRT.

I do tend to agree about the lifestyle thing making matters worse, based on personal experience, but other guys like Boston332, sps and Mew say they’re basically straight edge, so that would indicate that in itself it is not enough to cause a crash. Even taking into account just excessive masturbation, how many men (and propecia users) must fall into that category now when you can have free hardcore porn within a couple of clicks?

Ultimately we’ll never know what role lifestyle played in bringing PFS.

PS I wonder what happened to that Oki guy, he was a regular on the old forum but never posted here.

#63

Even though this thread has nothing to do with Androgens, I’ll bite…

In my opinion, something is definitely going on in that arena. None of us respond to Testosterone or other androgens the way that we are supposed to. I have had my testosterone levels as low as 99 (Dr told me he has many women with higher levels) and as high as 1,200 and I literally felt no difference at all. If anything, I may have felt better at 99. This, IMO, makes it pretty obvious that there is something wrong in regards to androgens in our body. Occording to one of the doctors who has knowledge on the studies AWOR is involved with, it is a “molecular signal”. I am not going to waste my time guessing what exactly that means.

Now a few things that confuse me regarding this…

  1. At one point, I was taking 300-500mg of Test Cyp a week, which is basically a steroid cycle. While doing this my hair was falling out rapidly and my hairline was receding.
  2. Many of us have had short-times when we felt 100% recovered from completely different things (being sick, antibiotics, tribulus, nystatin, spinach diet, etc).

So my opinion is that the androgen theory (whether its 5AR, receptor issues, DNA methylation/epigenetic change, molecular signal dysfunction, etc) is the main component here.

However, I also believe that CPPS/prostatitis is a major secondary issue. That is what I am working on right now because it is something I can tangibly attempt to treat. I, and others have made some really good improvements. The success of Alpha-1 blockers, which act on pelvic floor muscles (not on the prostate itself) and pelvic exercises in my case and others shows that I/we are looking in the correct direction at least regarding the “prostate symptoms”.

Consider the fact that 1 PFS user who went to Greece says he felt more improvement from ONE pelvic therapy session that the entirety of his Kos, Greece prostate trip is pretty enlightening.

Maybe it is all in vain though…maybe what ever is (possibly) causing the androgen issues is also (probably is) causing the pelvic floor dysfunction. In that case all the PT, stretching, alpha-1 blockers, Gabapentin, etc will only cover up the root issue and as soon as we stop all of the PT, stretching, meds, etc then we go back to the sorry state we were in before.

All I know is that I am seeing great improvements and I expect to see larger improvements when I decide to go to New York to see Amy Stein. In the meantime, we can only pray/hope that the research study will shed some light on the issue…and if it does, it is something that is treatable within at least a decade.

#64

Can you elaborate on your improvements please Moonman.

#65

OK, not exactly the answer i wanted to hear, but it’s good to weigh up the arguments

Can there be a connection with inflammation or cortisol and the body’s ability to synthesise testosterone? I guess that “could” be something that intefere’s and stops benefits from TRT. Anyway, despite your lack of benefits from TRT, the one question that still is not answered for me though is why androgen resistance, what could have caused this based on the known mechanisms of finasteride? I guess that’s the million dollar question though…

Anyway, no need to answer the above. This is about the pelvic floor issues.

I spent a whole day massaging my prostate yesterday. I then went to the gym and used the power plate to massage my prostate some more - jesus christ this machine is good for massaging your prostate. At times it felt like my body was going to fall out through my arse. I then had a very good evening afterwards which included a pretty solid erection which i abused, then felt the usual clogginess afterwards. I did, however, feel very calm last night and seemed to have much better emotion running through me. Unfortunately, this left me so excited i slept about 2 hours and couldn’t sleep all night. Today i’m pretty much back in shit land. It’s brilliant.

Despite your TRT stories though, i think i am going to really start working my prostate region in the hope that it will eventually cure me. I am encouraged by your results, but more encouraged by that of gefinuser… he said that the Kos treatment tripled his energies and i think he’s doing ok now, 80%-90%, but suspects it will degrade due to build up of inflammation. To say that the prostate treatment tripled his energies is quite something. Your TRT stories aside, i do think the prostate could play a huge part in the male anatomy, so much so that a major prostate issue could alone cause all the issues that we’re having.

Anyway, Moonman, sorry to start filling up your thread with what tim my term “spam”. Thank you for your efforts, it is a really good thread with some really interesting information. Especially the pelvic floor tension/prostate interferring with HPA axis journal.

#66

I’m off finasteride from 2005 and from that year I have persistent prostate pain/frequent urination and weak flow (is it something that you are experiencing too?).
Can you explain how do you do prostate massages?

What’s that “power plate”?

Thanks

#67

To answer a question I have been getting through PM

Q) What is the deal with not being able to achieve erections or having then rapidly fade when you stand up?
A) If you do a search on “pudental nerve entrapment” you will see that this is a hallmark. It is likely that the contracted and possibly inflamed pelvic floor muscles are “entrapping” the nerve. There is some good info on the relationship if you spend a few minutes googleing.

Q) Stretching or Trigger Point Therapy first?
A) Start with stretching. You should see a small amount of improvement with this and “meditation/stress relief”. The most important thing though is the Trigger Point Therapy. Stretching will only get you so far because it is a bit like trying to stretch a rope that has a knot in it. Trigger Point Therapy / Myofascial Release should help get rid of the “knot” so that you can resume stretching.

The inflammation angle is the same as the “Auto-Immune” / “Cytokine” theory. I posted one study above that showed increased levels of a cytokine (Interleukin 8?) in men with CPPS. There is another study (I didn’t post) that showed a decreased number of all of the other cytokines in men with CPPS.

The connection with cortisol is definitely there. A while back I read a study that took a group of men with CPPS. It showed that a very large % of then have low cortisol levels so there is definitely a connection there. I will try to find the study later this week when I find time. My personal opinion is that this connection is because when cortisol goes low norepinephrine raises. The normal relationship between cortisol and norepinepohrine is like a teeter totter.

So low cortisol --> increased norepinephrine --> stimulates alpha adrenergic-1 receptors --> contracted smooth muscles in the pelvic floor --> all the CPPS symtpoms.

There is another study I found on cortisol (glucocorticoids) and CPPS that I have been meaning to read. I will post that afterwards.

#68

Awesome thread,

I’ve recently gotten a hold of Amy Stein’s “Heal Pelvic Pain” and plan to work through the exercises in the book. The overlap in symptomatology between CPPS, hard flaccid and PFS is really pretty uncanny. I’m hoping that dealing with tightness in pelvic floor (and subsequent inflammation leading to nerve/vessel entrapment) will yield some positive results.

Here’s hoping,

#69

[Size=4]More on the Auto-Immune / Inflammation Theory[/size]

Interleukin-8 levels in seminal plasma in chronic prostatitis/chronic pelvic pain syndrome and nonspecific urethritis

Abstract
OBJECTIVE
To investigate whether a range of cytokines were detectable in the seminal plasma and urine of men with chronic prostatitis/chronic pelvic pain syndrome (CP/CPPS) and nonspecific urethritis (NSU), and whether cytokine levels correlated with symptom severity in CP/CPPS.

PATIENTS AND METHODS
In all, 87 men participated, 33 with CP/CPPS, 31 with NSU, and 23 controls. Interleukin (IL)-1β, IL-2, IL-6, IL-8 and IL-10 were measured in seminal plasma and first pass urine, and the results were correlated with scores for pain, urinary symptoms and quality-of-life impact using a validated symptom index, the National Institutes of Health Chronic Prostatitis Symptom Index (NIH-CPSI).

RESULTS
Seminal plasma levels of IL-8 were higher in men with CP/CPPS and NSU than in controls (P < 0.001), and the levels correlated with NIH-CPSI symptom scores in men with CP/CPPS. There were no significant differences in urinary IL-8 levels in the three groups, and no significant differences in levels of the other cytokines in either semen or urine.

CONCLUSION
Semen IL-8 levels correlate with subjective symptoms in men with CP/CPPS. IL-8 might contribute to the pathophysiology of CP/CPPS and NSU, and elevated levels might be a useful marker of the condition.

[b]DIAGNOSTIC VALUE OF SERIAL CYTOKINE CHANGES IN EXPRESSED PROSTATIC SECRETIONS

[/b]Werner W. Hochreiter, Robert B. Nadler, Alisa E. Koch, Phillip L. Campbell, Paul R. Yarnold, Anthony J. Schaeffer Chicago, IL

Introduction and Objectives Cytokines in expressed prostatic secretions (EPS) have been associated with chronic pelvic pain and/or inflammation in EPS. To establish the potential diagnostic value of serial cytokine changes in EPS we evaluated men with benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH), chronic pelvic pain syndrome (CPPS [NIH category IIIa and IIIb]) and asymptomatic inflammatory prostatitis (NIH category IV).

Methods: Eighteen men underwent periodic cytokine evaluation (mean: 3 measures/patient, range 2-10) at a mean time interval of 3 months (range: 1-6 months). Tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNF-a), interleukin 1 beta (IL-1b), interleukin 8 (IL-8) and epithelial neutrophil activating peptide 78 (ENA-78) were measured by ELISA. Clinical symptoms and inflammatory status (number of white blood cells [WBC] in EPS) were determined.

Results: In the absence of antibiotic treatment, 80% of the cases showed an increase of cytokine levels when symptoms developed (mean increase: 1725%) and a decrease of cytokine levels when symptoms disappeared (mean decrease: 49.5%). Similarily, in 73% of the cases an increase of WBC in EPS (<10 WBC/HPF to >10 WBC/HPF) was accompanied by an increase of cytokine levels (mean increase: 1771%) and a decrease of WBC in EPS (>10 WBC/HPF to <10 WBC/HPF) was accompanied by a decrease of cytokine levels (mean decrease: 57%). The degree of cytokine changes was significantly less in cases with stable symptoms (mean increase: 427%; mean decrease: 48%) or stable inflammatory status (mean increase: 440%; mean decrease: 54%). When antibiotic treatment was given, in 93% of the cases cytokine levels decreased (mean decrease: 51%) regardless of changes in symptoms or inflammatory status.

Conclusions: Serial monitoring of TNF-a, IL-1b, IL-8 and ENA-78 in EPS seems to be a reliable diagnostic tool which might be useful in the evaluation of patients with CPPS. Antibiotic treatment has to be taken into consideration as it might decrease cytokine levels.

#70

chronicprostatitis.com/cfs.html

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11251747?dopt=Abstract

Interesting link between CPPS and fatigue. My fatigue is killing me at the moment alomg with severe prostate/lower back pain.

#71

Moonman,

Kegels… good or bad? What’s your experience with them? Have you avoided them altogether and focused strictly on reverse-kegels?

#72

Avoid Kegels or any type of clenching/strengthening/PE like they are the devil. They will make the situation worse.

Reverse-Kegels (which really are not Kegels) are good and musts. Regular Kegels are not!

Even during masturbation/sex I have to forcibly remind myself to not clench, kegel, or flex the perineum. You actually get used to it and the orgasms are much stronger and erections much longer and harder.

Sometimes as I am standing in front of the fridge or desk, I will notice that I am clenching my butt and pelvic floor. Its a bad habit.

#73

I did loads of kegels when first off fin and experiencing pain. Must have done more harm than good.

#74

i also had that habit but before pfs wasn’t a problem

#75

Thanks for the insight!

Will do… I’d like to experiment with kegels as well at some point in the distant future (given their potential benefits) but moving forward I’ll assume the problem at hand is CPPS and a tight pelvic floor. I’ll stick to this track for the next year and organize my efforts around this idea.

#76

Thanks for sharing your experience. I find that theres some soreness in the region already even before embarking on kegels, stretches etc. It’s a very slight soreness (not enough to hinder my movement at all) but one that I’ve taken note of and that I’ve never experienced before crashing.

This points to some kind of inflammation and blockage for sure imo.

#77

Article states that IL-8 can be decreased with GLA (not sure if this has been mentioned before).

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12576957

#78

Moonman1, could you please help me out here?

I read through this thread and I feel as though I definitely have pelvic floor/perinium issues. I agree with what your saying but I don’t feel the “tightness” that you are referring to. Since my crash the whole area feels dead, almost like its been hollowed out. If I get an erection, which is weak at best, I no longer feel that erection go through my legs like I used to before this whole mess.

Do you have any idea whether this is the same thing you are suffering from but just slightly different? I’m asking you since you seem to have done extensive research on this topic and have seen doctors for this specific reason as well.

Also, how are you doing? Have you been able to achieve a state of penile/pelvic/perinium fullness which your protocol? I’m considering the pelvic exercises myself (not the medication since I don’t feel this tightness).

Furthermore, I know that when people are paralyzed, in physical therapy they use this electrode stimulators to try to build the muscle back up again. I know its ridiculous, but maybe we could try applying them to the perineum?

#79

check out chronicprostatitis.com/

it has a lot of info on there. they have a forum as well, except they charge people to use it… I bought the stupid membership on there, but it’s not really any ground breaking stuff.

i’d also stay away quercitin (recommended on taht website, same as a lot of the natural stuff they promote, they have a thing they sell I thnk it was saw palmetto in it) as I know it may have a negative effect for PFS, forgot the exact study but it either decreases the production of nitric oxide or it helps stop the conversion of T -> E (which doesn’t solve the problem).

#80

Wow… this is a really apt description of the very same thing I’ve been experiencing but have had difficulty explaining. “Hollowed out”… exactly… along with a dull ache from time to time there is a feeling of emptiness/lack of fullness in that region. It’s a really bizarre thing.

With regards to CPPS, from what I understand you may not “feel” the tightness at the pelvic floor but it can definitely contribute the expression of symptoms we complain about here. This congestion/inflammation in the pelvic region can cause urinary and sexual problems.