I intend to try it soon.
Guys, if im correct, Progesterone will work on PFS for the neurosteroid issues. BUT it will upregulate the already upregulated AR’s from PFS. It is an AR antagonist, antagonists actually upregulate the receptors.
So in theory, you will fix your NS’s with Prog, but actually make your Androgen Receptor situation worse.
So, the logical thing to do is to first fixing the Receptor overexpression, taking strong Androgenic Agents and pushing far as much as necessary for your body to downregulate the receptors.
Then later you will need a PCT and need to fix the NS’s.
You can use Progesterone to fix the neurosteroids… But, HCG itself will kill two birds with one stone. It will work as an LH and fix your balls (PCT) while fixing the neurosteroid issue too.
Then you will wait, for your supressed LH from HCG to finally came back to normal and maybe use low dose Clomid (Preferably Tamoxifen or Enclomiphene) to speed up the process and put an end to this nightmare.
I think that’s the general pictue. Many people i know use this method. Hope it works out for everyone.
Can you elaborate on your comment a bit? I have some honest questions.
Why do you say that progesterone upregulates ARs? Is this a well-known fact in the medical community, or a hypothesis from our own community? If it’s a hypothesis, I can ask my doctor (who does hormone therapy for patients) what he thinks. And he’s also corresponding with Dr. Powers so I could also ask him to reach out to Powers for his thoughts.
What are some of those strong androgenic agents? Is HCG an example? If so, which HCG dosage is best? The joekool one?
What is a PCT?
From my understanding, androgen receptors actually upregulate further when exposed to anabolic androgenic steroids. I have read the primary benefit from taking steroids is actually the androgen receptor upregulation, and not the actual serum concentration of hormones.
I edited one of my messages in Androgen Receptor Overexpression thread in science section.
@BibFortuna You really need to ask this to your doctors. But you can also read the studies yourself.
Here is the thing, you can find some studies, saying Progesterone upregulates the AR. And there are some which saying the opposite. And some stuides couldn’t be able to conclude an idea… I said it does upregulates the AR’s because people i talked with experienced this on themselves. Plus, if you look the studies, generally there are more information and proof that it antagonizes AR’s. There are few small anectodes which can state the otherwise.
I am going to edit my messages when i will become sure about this. That was a mistake of me. But im sure, the things i said are %80 will turn up as true. Because many people, and the guy i talked with currently, recovers himself with this premises. I need to eliminate the last %20. Here are the things i can answer:
HCG is not an strong androgenic agent, but, depends on the dose, however higher dosages showed Leydig Cell desensitization, a very well known thing. So, people use HCG for PCT, or testicular (secondary) hypogonadism.
You can take various steroids, Trestolone, TRT or Proviron. Thats what i meant with strong androgens.
Post Cycle Theraphy. A term used by bodybuilders. Main idea is fixing your HPTA, gonad shutdown after androgens. Mainly, LH.
I have 4 studies confirming this, but also many other studies saying the otherwise. And the main idea behind how some PFS cases recovered with androgens is simple. Studies confirmed that PFS patients have overexpressed AR.
So if androgens meant to increase the AR expression further, how come did they recover? We know many PFS cases who recovered with androgen supplementation. They downregulated them with androgens. And i took Accutane, it is known to actually downregulate the AR’s…
And i tried androgens
which probably downregulated them further, thats why i am not seeing any benefits… That’s just a guess though. All we can do is guessing…
IF main reason of PAS is actually AR downregulation, opposite of PFS, then taking androgens should have worked for me and many other PAS cases i closely know… But it seems only PFS people can see benefit from androgens which logically explains my initial theory… IF the premises are right.
I will get to a conclusion, but i need to discuss those 4 conflicting studies with some people who know the science of it. I could post more for both of them, but my eyes hurt and im so angry.
These ones say androgens downregulated the AR’s. On particular tissues that examined, on rats. Different setup, different variables.
These say the opposite, different variables, and protocols.
All i can say is, Modern Medicine is just a joke. A big one without the punchline.
From my humble understanding from hours and hours of reading medical journals, there is no single flat effect from any substance on the body. Diversity in cell and tissue types, internal environment factors and content of the cells, dosage, and duration of use - all these and many other factors are able to dramatically change the effect of a substance.
Also, downregulation, upregulation, sensitization, and desensitization are not magical effects. It requires the whole cascade of reactions to happen in the cell. For example, androgens can act directly through nuclear receptors and control the DNA replication of thousands of genes. This process requires many cofactors, also many other substances can interfere with it. Also, androgens can act through membrane receptors and change the state of the cell. And any of these changes can induce other changes, and the cascade may eventually lead to the desired effect.
We need clinical trials to confirm any substance effect in a majority of people. Or maybe some sort of full biological simulation in the future. There is no other way to definitely know the answer. Research papers are more like clues and hints, but not the answer.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I’m personally 8 weeks into testosterone treatment at 250mg/wk. TT at 1700ng/dl, FT at 40ng/dl. I’ve only noticed positive improvements thus far. I may experiment at 500mg/wk or with proviron in the future.
What kind of treatment are you doing? And what are the positives so far?
You are completely right. I guess we just have to try it out ourselves. Now im trying to choose my last shot. Either TRT or Progesterone, if i can decide which one upregulates the AR’s on prostate.
Here is a messsage i got from a pharmacologist and a bodybuilder who studies medicine and knows a lot of good information.
Upregulation through antagonists is a common phenomenon but with nuclear receptors I wouldnt be surprised if it can differ from receptor to receptor. I don’t see evidence of direct antagonism from progesterone. Could be a downstream effect. Not sure though.
Yeah man, please, open a thread or something, what kind of improvements you have right now? Neato!
If I had to choose, I’d rather progesterone, because it will boost all downstream hormones balanced way.
Besides direct action (membrane receptors and nuclear receptors) progesterone is a precursor of a bunch of hormones. So your body will experience effects from all of them. But it won’t necessarily be noticeable. Also, you have to know what membrane receptors’ action is very rapid (hours), whereas nuclear may take days to develop. And any effect may not be consistent because of the body’s constant recomposition and rebalancing. I read about different effects at different timeframes during hormone exposure: 1, 6, 12 hours. And after withdrawal.
Not sure if you need this information, but I guess when you shooting in the dark any clues are useful.
Yeah thanks, well, the cascade of other hormones, neurosteroids, it seems i don’t need them. I am already on HCG and i saw zero benefits. My only issue seems like a hardcore prostate damage. Insensivity of AR’s there. Mental libido is fine.
Very weak studies with bleak conclusions. First one is done on breast tissue of females. Second one on rats and reptiles. And does not clearly state Progestins effect on AR’s.
It seems inhibitive to androgens and AR, but not every inhibitive action results in the upregulation of the AR’s on target tissues…
I wish i was PFS, lol! It would be much easier to recover. I would know what to do to cure myself. PAS is even worse than PFS, i feel like so unlucky about my fate and life. This is so sad, at least im a mild case…
" I wish i was PFS, lol! It would be much easier to recover. I would know exactly what to do to cure myself. PAS is even worse than PFS" Is this a joke?
First of all, no you wouldnt know exactly what to do to cure yourself. Or if you do, go ahead and tell everyone what it is so we can all leave this forum and live our lives.
Second of all, PAS in not worse than PFS. Thats a completely baseless comment.
You need to start putting a bit more thought into your comments, especially since the forum is flooded with them.
I said ‘‘myself’’. I would know how to cure myself, if i had PFS. At least, what to try. Everyone is different. Man please don’t cheerypick my words all the time. What are you trying to accomplish here? Im just trying to help. Yes my comment might sound a little bit annoying, i agree. And could sound over the top.
But i don’t think if you are aware how bad PAS also is. It changes from person to person. You sound like you haven’t seen different boards, check out Acne.org and other PAS cases.
Can i ask what are you doing to cure yourself? Are you aware that your neurosteroids are lacking due to PSSD and HCG can cure you? Have you heard the Dexa recoveries on PSSD forums? Have you heard the HCG recoveries? What are you planning to do here, are you waiting a research to happen and find the magic pill? Im just asking. I know many recovered PSSD cases.
Theres a difference in saying you know what you would want to try vs you know what would cure you. Noone (including you) knows anything for sure regarding whats behind these syndromes, let alone knowing how to cure them. Secondly, if you know your comment is annoying, dont post it or then word it differently. Lastly, I know that PAS is bad and I have been on different boards. That doesnt change the fact that you comment was baseless.
Regarding myself, Im the last person to be waiting for research to find “a magic pill”. Ive tried (and am still trying) several things, including TRT, clomid, tamoxifen, etc. Regarding HCG, I havent seen anyone in the pssd community say it cured them. As for dexamethasone, Ive seen a couple of people say they got a window on it, but it didnt cure anyone either. Are you aware that you dont know anything about this condition (even if you claim you do)? How do you know that my neurosteroids are lacking? Your comments are baseless.
Still very early days man. I will be sure to make updates in my thread later down the track. No changes in sex drive or libido thus far. Erections are stronger however, and I do feel more energetic, better stamina, stronger, etc. I’m just giving it time and being patient before giving a formal update. The body takes time to change. I’ve spoken to people outside of Propeciahelp, who cured themselves with TRT, but it just took them time, one fella it took 6 months… Just gonna be patient. I do think an extended run of HCG should be trialed first to repair neurosteroidigensis. I personally was on HCG for 3 months in 2019.
Did you try the progesterone cream yourself? And did it work?
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