Ok, this is a supplement designed to assist cognitive function and learning. There are a few studies indicating that it may increase 5 alpha reductase activity.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3426586
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2615369
The catch? The phosphatidylserine used in these studies is derived from bovine cortex… cow brains.
After the “mad cow disease” fiasco there seems to have been a slump in the market, however i did manage to find a somewhat questionable supplier of “adrenal cortex”.
Another study:
Modulation of epididymal delta 4-steroid 5 alpha-reductase activity in vitro by the phospholipid environment.
jbc.org/content/260/12/7489.abstract
The most potent activator was dilauroyl phosphatidylcholine…This is the first time that an activator of 5 alpha-reductase has been found.
I actually did manage to find cow brain supplement on the net (from NZ cows which are certified BSE free).
Good stuff.
Could someone (i.e. one of his patients) tell Dr. Crisler? Boosting 5 AR may a the way forward…
I’m going to get some bovine brain supplement, i think it can’t hurt.
It seems from these studies the ideal would be to get a concentrated form of dilauroyl phosphatidylcholine, as that seems to have the most impact on acticating 5ar2. How someone would do that i have know idea. I mean it’s definitely not a supplement you can get at a health food store.
“The ability of phospholipids to enhance the activity of solubilized 5 alpha-reductase was highly specific and structure related. Only phosphatidylcholines containing either unsaturated acyl chains or saturated acyl chains of 12 carbon atoms were found to activate 5 alpha-reductase. The most potent activator was dilauroyl phosphatidylcholine…”
ok, did a bit more research, found a company that specialises in these type of compounds:
700 Industrial Park Drive
Alabaster, AL 35007
US
tel: +1 +800 227 0651
fax: +1 +800 229 1004
healthcare.zibb.com/profile/avan … 7/26672706
I’m not in the US but perhaps someone could speak with them about the possibility of getting some of this stuff and what would be the most effective way to administer it? i imagine they’ll think the purpose that we want it for is a little strange but fuck it. if noone else is interested i’ll follow this up on my own when i finally get some time off work.
i just wanna say that this is a totally “out on a limb” theory. i have no idea about the bioavailability of this stuff as there have been no studies on humans and their 5ar2 response but the upside is this seems to be a “no downside” supplement, so i don’t think we really have anything to lose by investigating.
Another company that manufactures phospholipids, based in germany.
they say that they deal in industrial quantities but seem very professional and may be able to provide some information about the usefulness of dilauroyl phosphatidylcholine as a supplement.
also picked this off their website:
Lipoid is the only supplier offering a full range of lecithins and phospholipids: natural ones from egg yolk and soybeans, and also synthetic phospholipids. On request we also develop special new phospholipids and related substances.
More than 80% of our phospholipids are manufactured for the pharmaceutical industry…Which products are suitable for the specific applications of our customers should be discussed with the technical staff of our sales department.
And another company:
phospholipid.jp/?gclid=CNT9z … agodZQ8elA
Regarding synthetic phospholipid, DDPC, DLPC, DMPC, DPPC, DSPC, DOPC, POPC and DEPC are available for PC series.
DLPC = dilauroyl phosphatidylcholine
There’s no doubt that pure dilauroyl phosphatidylcholine would be more expensive than a bovine cortex extract. However, if it does a good job of raising 5 alpha reductase activity and Adiol G it just might be worth it… i don’t know.
Mariobros, check out Endo Amp from Primordial Performance, it’s another phospholipid profile supplement. I’ve taken it several times and believe it was a helpful addition to my supplement regime. I was taking it along with creatine, after working out.
Hey cdnuts,
Yeah i’m aware of Endoamp actually, and i’m sure it’s good stuff my only concern in regards to this subject (activation of 5 alpha reductase) is that it seems that some phospholids have shown a good ability to activate 5 alpha reductase in the lab and some have shown none and Endoamp doesn’t specify the source of their phosphilids.
The 5 alpha-reductase activity of the partially purified preparation was significantly stimulated by addition of phosphatidylserine (bovine brain)…Dilauroylphosphatidylcholine caused a marked increase in progesterone 5 alpha-reductase activity
…natural phosphatidylcholine from bovine liver did not exhibit any stimulation…naturally occurring phosphatidylcholines from biological sources as well as dioleoylphosphatidylcholine had not effect on the activity…When synthetic phosphatidylcholines with varying acyl chain lengths were tested for their stimulatory effects on the reductase activity, dilauroylphosphatidylcholine was most active; dimyristoylphosphatidylcholine was less active; dioleoylphosphatidylcholine was almost inactive.
As i mentioned earlier, these studies have been done with either bovine derived or synthetic phosphilids, however due to fear over mad cow disease, nearly all phospholid supplements are now derived from soy or egg products and from my research, i understand that comparing soy and egg phospholids to bovine brain phospholids is like apples and oranges.
I believe they are plant based phospholipids. At least that’s what I was told when I asked about the source.
Very interesting study on the effect of lysophospholipids and their effect on 5 alpha reductase on human prostate cells:
Phospholipase A2 degradation products modulate epithelial and stromal 5-reductase activity of human benign prostatic hyperplasia in vitro
www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour … 1&SRETRY=0
BACKGROUND
Recent studies have demonstrated the inhibition of 5-reductase activity in human prostate by phospholipases. Among those phospholipases, phospholipase A2 cleaves one of the acyl chains from phospholipids, thereby producing fatty acids and lysophospholipids such as LPC, LPS, and LPE. Therefore, we were interested in the effect of those lysophospholipids on 5-reductase activity in human benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH).
In epithelium, LPC at low concentration yielded a dose-dependent stimulation of 5-reductase activity up to 167%. At higher concentrations, epithelial as well as stromal 5-reductase activity was inhibited significantly. As indicated by results of enzyme kinetic analyses, the LPC-mediated activation in the epithelium results from an increase of the active population of 5-reductase.
LPS stimulated epithelial and stromal 5-reductase activity; this stimulation was significantly stronger in epithelium (296%) than in stroma (163%).
In the article they talk about how a particular phospholipase (phospholipase A2) is able to break the acyl chains from phospholipids, thereby producing fatty acids and three lysophospholipids: LPC, LPS, and LPE and their differing effects on 5 alpha reductase activity.
I haven’t been able to read the entire article yet.
Whether this is better than dilauroylphosphatidylcholine or bovine phosphatidylserine i couldn’t say, however this is a study demonstrating that phospholipids have an effect on 5 alpha reductase in human prostate tissue, which makes it quite exciting i think.
That’s if i’m reading it correctly.
It’s all quite confusing with all the phospholipids/phospholipase/lysophospholipids.
Another study demonstrating how phospholipids, and in particular, how lysophospholipids regulate 5 alpha reductase activity.
Phospholipid requirement of progesterone 5 alpha-reductase from gastric mucosa microsomes of guinea pig.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1943497
In search of more effective phospholipid activators, we tested the effects of various lysophospholipids on 5 alpha-reductase activity. Strongly stimulatory effects were observed when lysophosphatidylcholine (lysoPC) and lysophosphatidylethanolamine (lysoPE) were used instead of PC and phosphatidylethanolamine. Examination of synthetic lysoPC and lysoPE differing in acyl chain lengths showed that fatty chains of 12 to 16 carbons were effective in stimulating the 5 alpha-reductase. By contrast, other lysophospholipids such as lysophosphatidic acid, lysophosphatidylglycerol or lysophosphatidylserine (lysoPS) greatly inhibited 5 alpha-reductase activity. These findings suggest that gastric 5 alpha-reductase may be under dual regulation; lysoPC and lysoPE may play important roles as positive effectors, whereas lysophosphatidic acid, lysophosphatidylglycerol and lysoPS act as negative effectors in progesterone 5 alpha-reductase regulation.
There seems to be some contradiction when it comes to lysophospholipids about their effect on 5 alpha reductase.
That is different results were found in the different studies i posted in how different lysophospholipids effected 5 alpha reductase in human prostate vs guinea pig gastric cells.
From the studies i’ve read, however dilauroylphosphatidylcholine seems to be a universal activator of 5 alpha reductase in all cells it comes into contact with.
This study is again about using phospholipases to inhibit 5-alpha reductase but backs up the theory that alterations in the phospholipid environment can have a significant effect on the expression of 5 alpha reductase.
In vitro modulation of steroid 5α-reductase activity by phospholipases in epithelium and stroma of human benign prostatic hyperplasia
sciencedirect.com/science?_o … 744192bf49
The two phospholipases, with their specific substrate affinities and sites of hydrolysis, exhibited significantly different effects on 5α-reductase, indicating that 5α-reductase activity is not unspecifically affected by modification of the hydrophilic milieu. Rather, 5α-reductase activity is specifically modulated by various phospholipids and/or phospholipolysis mediated degradation products. These findings suggest that the structural composition of the lipid environment plays a fundamental role in the post-translational regulation of 5α-reductase activity in the epithelium and stroma of human BPH. Thus, changes in membrane phospholipid content seem to be instrumental in the expression of DHT-dependent processes.
More evidence of the effect of bovine brain lipids on 5 alpha reductase.
Partial purification of human prostatic 5 alpha-reductase (3-oxo-5 alpha-steroid:NADP+ 4-ene-oxido-reductase; EC 1.3.1.22) in a stable and active form.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1705142
Human hyperplastic prostate tissue was homogenised in high ionic strength buffer and the post nuclear homogenate was incubated with 0.8% octyl glucoside and bovine brain lipids. Dialysis of the resulting liposome suspension yielded a preparation in which 5 alpha-reductase was active and stable for at least three weeks and showed an increase in specific activity (Vmax +/- SD = 48.9 +/- 7.4 pmol DHT/mg protein/ml) over that of the starting homogenate (Vmax +/- SD = 5.6 +/- 1.5 pmol DHT/mg protein/min) of 8.7 times.
Well my cow brains just arrived, pretty excited. Incase your wondering, yeah they stink.
I’m gonna start taking a dose of six capsules daily for the first month and then i might taper back, depends how i feel. According to the packet six tablets is the equivalent to to eating an ounce of raw cow brains.
In fact, this thread should really be in the natural supplements section cause thats all this stuff is, dried cow brains.
Anyways, I’ll report back on this thread in the future.
Cheers!
Hei Mariobros any result so far ?
I think “PURE” synthetic dilauroyl phosphatidylcholine
may be our best bet in activating 5 AR II & I.
I doubt that taking dried cow brain will help you, there is simply not many dilauroyl phosphatidylcholine in it.
Any idea how to order it from the German company ?
Any of you chemist out there know how closely related Phosphatidyl Choline and dilauroyl phosphatidylcholine are? The former is easily available at vitamin stores or at vitacost:
Hey guys,
It’s difficult to say really. I have been feeling better but this isn’t the only supplement that i’m taking so i can’t be certain and i don’t want to jump in too early and make a call without being sure. I’d like to do it a bit more scientifically and just try one thing at a time but i guess i’m just not patient enough. regardless, even if this works i don’t think it’s the kind of thing that will have a “one week and i’m cured” response. If our 5 alpha reductase response has been shut down hard it could take some months for any result to become apparent.
I agree that consuming cow brains probably isn’t the most efficient way of doing this but i haven’t been able to find a concentrated phosphoserine extract of the right type. i figure it’s worth a try though, and i wouldn’t discount its benefits altogether, while dilauroyl phosphatidylcholine has shown to be the best synthetic activator of 5ar2, it’s not the only one. There is a study above where human prostate cells where put in a solution of bovine brain lipids and 5ar2 activity increased 8.7 times. i know that that is in the test tube not the body but i think it is still promising.
Where i live there is no danger of mad cow disease and cow brains are apparently highly nutritious anyway so i actually went to the butcher this week and had him order me in some fresh cow brains. it should be noted that cow brains are the most dense natural source of phosphoserine, i think according to wikipedia 100 grams has over 700mg.
Another good thing is i read somewhere that orally ingested phosphoserine has good bioavailability which was something i was a bit worried about.
BadLuck, in regards to your question, i can’t say for certain whether or not Phosphatidyl Choline would be any benefit, but from what i’ve read in the studies posted above it seems that activation of 5ar2 by phospholipids is quite specific. some phospholipids demonstrate a good ability to activate 5ar2 some have no effect whatsoever. i believe it has something to do with the length of the amino acid chain.
If we can get some dilauroyl phosphatidylcholine at a resonable price i’d be all for it, i think it holds alot of promise, but i worry about the cost of buying it as a research chemical. it could be very pricey.
The best thing to do might be to get in touch with one of these companies and explain what we are trying to achieve, present the research we’ve gathered and they might be able to advise us on what would be the best, most cost effective way of getting the right phospholipids at a reasonable price, for human consumption. i’ll try and get around to this in the future.
regards,
mariobros.
Hi Mario Bros,
I think this is very promising. Thanks for your research. I think we need to try the pure substance, not the supplement. We have never tried a 5 ar activator. As far as being pricey, i am willing to pay a higher price for something that is promising in my opinion. I am going to foward these studies to Dr. Crisler and ask him if he knows if we could obtain that. But sometimes Dr. Crisler seems a little too busy, plus i am far from Michigan. Is anyone else willing to give Phosphatylserine a try?
Apparently, Phosphatidylserine is also a human neurotransmitter… and it has a relationship with some of parkinson’s disease symptoms. Some people in this forum have wondered if they were at risk for parkinsons due to the side effects they were having from propecia.
peacehealth.org/kbase/cam/hn-1244009.htm
"People with Parkinson’s disease treated with L-dopa have been reported to have reduced levels of the neurotransmitter phosphatidylserine.47 In one trial, supplementing with phosphatidylserine (100 mg three times daily) improved the mood and mental function in patients with Parkinson’s disease, but exerted no beneficial effects on muscle control.48 The phosphatidylserine used in this trial was obtained from cow brain. That product is not available in the United States, because of concern that an extract of cow brain could cause Creutzfeld-Jakob disease, the human variant of “mad cow” disease. The phosphatidylserine sold in the United States is manufactured from plant sources and cow-brain phosphatidylserine.49
Vitamin D deficiency is common in Parkinson’s disease. People with Parkinson’s often get insufficient sun exposure and have reduced levels of activity that adversely affect calcium metabolism.50 Low vitamin D levels in Parkinson’s disease have been reported to increase the risk of hip fracture due to osteoporosis.51 This risk has been significantly reduced with the use of synthetic, activated vitamin D-a prescription drug.52 Whether the same effect could be achieved with supplemental vitamin D remains unknown, though some doctors recommend 400-1,000 IU vitamin D per day. People with Parkinson’s disease may wish to discuss the use of synthetic activated vitamin D with a healthcare professional."
So are we supposed to have this substance naturally in our bodies?
“Phosphatidylserine is a molecule that is important for normal brain function. It is made by the human body and is found in many foods, but is also often used in dietary supplements. These supplements are claimed to be beneficial for conditions such as Alzheimer’s disease, ADHD, depression, and age-related dementia. Potential side effects of phosphatidylserine supplements include insomnia, gas, and upset stomach.”
alzheimers.emedtv.com/phosphatid … erine.html
SPECULATION: Could propecia have affected our natural production of Phosphatidylserine, and this interferes with 5 alpha reductase renewal in the cells?