PFS suferred from Australia, Need Assistance!

  1. Where are you from (country)? Australia

  2. How did you find this forum (Google search – if so, what search terms? Via link from a forum or website – if so, what page? Other?) Google search - Finasteride side effects

  3. What is your current age, height, weight? Age: 30, height: 176cm, weight: 67 KG

  4. Do you excercise regularly? If so, what type of excercise? Used to before PFS, now no exercise due to extreme lethargy

  5. What type of diet do you eat (vegetarian, meat eater, raw, fast-food/organic healthy)? Used to eat very healthy, now i just eat to survive

  6. Why did you take Finasteride (hair loss, BPH, other)? hair loss

  7. For how long did you take Finasteride (weeks/months/years)? 5 years approx

  8. How old were you, and WHEN (date) did you start Finasteride? 25 years old, January 2007

  9. How old were you when you quit, and WHEN (date) did you quit? 29 years old, 09/12/2012

  10. How did you quit (cold turkey or taper off)? Cold turkey

  11. What type of Finasteride did you use – Propecia, Proscar, Fincar or other generic? Propecia

  12. What dose did you take (eg. 1 mg/day, 1 mg every other day etc.)? 1mg/day

  13. How long into your use of Finasteride did you notice the onset of side effects? 4 years

  14. What side effects did you experience while on the drug that have yet to resolve since discontinuation? Testicular atrophy, erectile dysfunction, memory loss/brain fog, watery semen, premature ejaculation, low/no libido

Put an X beside all that apply:

Sexual
Loss of Libido / Sex Drive
Erectile Dysfunction
Complete Impotence
Loss of Morning Erections
Loss of Spontaneous Erections
Loss of Nocturnal Erections
Watery Ejaculate
Reduced Ejaculate
Inability to Ejaculate / Orgasm
Reduced Sperm Count / Motility

Mental
Emotional Blunting / Emotionally Flat
Difficulty Focusing / Concentrating
Confusion
Memory Loss / Forgetfullness
Stumbling over Words / Losing Train of Thought
Slurring of Speech
Lack of Motivation / Feeling Passive / Complacency
[x Extreme Anxiety / Panic Attacks
Depression / Melancholy

Physical
Penile Tissue Changes (narrowing, shrinkage, wrinkled)
Penis curvature / rotation on axis
Testicular Pain
Testicular Shrinkage / Loss of Fullness
Genital numbness / sensitivity decrease
Weight Gain
Gynecomastia (male breasts)
Muscle Wastage
Muscle Weakness
Joint Pain
Dry / Dark Circles under eyes

Misc
Prostate pain
Persistent Fatigue / Exhaustion
Stomach Pains / Digestion Problems
Constipation / “Poo Pellets”
Vision - Acuity Decrease / Blurriness
Increased hair loss
Frequent urination
Lowered body temperature

Other (please explain)

  1. What (if any) treatments have you undertaken to recover from your side effects since discontinuation of the drug? Tried testosterone boosting supplements (Tribulus, Tongkat Ali, MACA) with little to no success

  2. If you have pre or post-Finasteride bloodtests, what hormonal changes have you encountered since discontinuing the drug (pls post your test results in the “Blood Tests” section and link to them in your post)?

  3. Anything not listed in the above questions you’d like to share about your experience with Finasteride?

  4. Tell us your story, in your own words, about your Finasteride usage and side effects experienced while on/off the drug.
    Generally tolerated the drug quite well 4 years into use, however after an AAS cycle (with proper PCT) continued to take finasteride and PFS symptoms appeared. discontinued the drug and have been left in a state of AAS/Fin induced hypogonadism.
    A year on from discontinuing the drug i have all the symptoms of acquired hypogonadism. I am wishing to start a PCT protocol with a weight training and exercise routine to recover from this sad and lonely existence finasteride has left me in. I am in Australia and am having a hard time finding the PCT drugs necessary to reboot my HPTA and regain hormonal homestatis. Will post bloods shortly

If your from Melbourne, I can point you in the right direction.

Thats right i’m from Melbourne, would appreciate any help I can get thank you!

Latest blood test results:

Oestradiol 53 pmol/L (ref: < 160)
Total Test 14.5 nmol/L (ref: 12-30)
Free Test 268 pmol/L (ref: 245-785)
SHBG 39 nmol/L (ref: 13-71)
FAI 37.2 (ref: 13-92)
LH 4.5 IU/L
FSH 5.5 IU/L

Testicular volume using an orchidometer:
25ML both left & right (35ML pre-finasteride)

All the doctors i have spoken to regarding my condition tell me that it’s all “in my head” and try to prescribe my happy pills and send me on my way. I’m looking for a doctor/endocrinologist that will be sympathetic and knowledgeable on the subject. Barring that scenario will be looking to self medicate as per our brothers on this forum using a PCT. So far Dr Scally’s power PCT (45 day program) looks the most convincing in my current case to try and reboot my HPTA axis and reclaim some testicular size by stimulating any dormant leydig cells, but then it begs the question of where can i find injectable HCG, Clomid & Nolvadex in Australia (or a reliable internet source). I currently have access to Testosterome 5% cream and HCG nasal spray but I don’t wish to go down the TRT route as its a band-aid solution.

propeciashiz your thoughts?

Beekay

your testes dropped 10ml? did you use steroids at any stage? yeah i had a similar experience dr’s offering trouser treats and that’s it lol.

I saw plenty of doctors … urologists are a waste of time. I saw Dr john Wentworth at the Royal melbourne hospital, his a really good doctor, though does not fully understand why. I got my HCG off a anti-aging doctor in moonee ponds. What area you from?

Location is Epping (northern suburbs)

Yes i did use steroids, did a 10 Week cycle of Testosterone Enanthate @ 500mg 1ml/per week + 30mg Dianabol per day for 6 weeks running accutane and Finasteride. I followed that up with a 3 week PCT of Nolvadex 10mg twice per day. Initial i recovered well but the mistake i made was sticking with the Finasteride post cycle. 1 month after the cycle i recovered really well however I believe i did not arrest the Estradiol enough. With the continued inhibition of DHT with finasteride which usually acts as a counter-balance to Estradiol. 8 months post cycle I was completely shutdown.

What kind of HCG? Injectable or Nasal Spray? I currently have a script for Nasal spray HCG but it is not enough to restart the balls (only 150iu per shot unless i snort the whole thing in one sitting its not gonna help me lol). Need to get my hands on injectable HCG + Clomid + Nolvadex and convince a Dr/Endo to prescribe me the meds i require. I have enlisted the aid of Dr. Scally from Houston Texas who has recovered thousands of previous AAS and Finasteride induced hypogonadals however he can only provide consultation and not meds etc…

Cheers for the reply bro.

I used to live in Mill Park from the East now.

Well I can forward you on to the biochemist i know he deals with a lot of body builders etc.
Your test would of significantly dropped after that cycle and finasteride would of caused you to crash even further. I used HCG injectable by Ascent Pharmaceuticals, he sources and makes all his products legitimately.
PM if you want his details.

Man you must of felt really shit after that cycle.

Let me know if I can help.

Pm’ed you bro… if you could pm me the details of your biochemist i’d thanks mate! Merry xmas to you.

Intro to Beekay’s HPTA restart protocol - journal entry # 1

“Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

This quote actually inspired me to undertake my upcoming HPTA restart and recovery protocol… after learning alot from my numerous failed attempts (although the last actually recovered me upto a point!)… I’ve finally come up with an all-inclusive plan… I have so much confidence in what I am about to partake in that I wish to share this journey with you in the hope that you too can recover or even provide me feedback where my knowledge is seemingly lacking and where you and I (my fallen brethren!) can help each other out with knowledge to share!.. Although I cannot claim victory as yet, I am going into this one with a heap of confidence and no fear of the results… only observations of them! I will explain my reasoning later…

Fellow PFS sufferers… After having dealt with this dreaded condition for 1.5 years now I have gone through hell and back trying to fix this thing and failed over and over (had a bit of success and learning on the last attempt though, so I am psyched for what is going to be attempted next). I have tried everything from Tongkat Ali, Multi-vitamins, MACA blah blah blah!!! Unfortunately for us who have been hit pretty hard (where your actual HPTA has been fucked with), there is only 1 way out IMO. That is, as our friend and predecessor Oneday once did with his protocol… fight fire with fire! We have all been duped to some degree into believing Merck’s and the general medical industry consensus that Finasteride symptoms will subside once you discontinue the drug. Unfortunately - as we have found out the hard way, this does not seem to be the case with some of us (the cursed unlucky ones lol!). As we all have a very different hormonal system, it can sometimes be extremely difficult to pinpoint exactly where that imbalance lies especially due to the out-dated reference range system that the medical community use to assess if we are “normal”. We do have one thing in common though, Hormonal Imbalance! The really unlucky ones such as I, are actually dealing with something much more severe – Finasteride Induced Secondary Hypogonadism (Hormonal Imbalance with Nut shrinkage… FML!). These imbalances can be blindingly obvious from our lab results or hidden beneath the eye of one not so knowledgeable to find it. I believe every restart protocol or regime needs to be tailored to your specific imbalances, therefore it is imperative you get full bloods to figure out what the fuck is going on in your system (more on this later). I have like many of you, seen doctor after doctor, endocrinologist after endo, urologist after urologist… and I have but only this to say about all of them.

“This shit is not in my head! This happened to me because of Fin… No I dont need nor want your F#cking happy pills! My life is pretty awesome barring this one unfortunate turn of events! and if you are not going to help me… then F$CK YOU! I will take matters into my own hands!! Same clowns that prescribed us these fucking meds without knowing full well what the risks were are now bailing us out? Yeah right!”

I have already tried 3 protocols for recovery, the 1st was to watch and wait (fail!), the 2nd was supplements and training (slight improvement but ultimately fail!), after failing at the first 2 attempts I decided to kick it up a notch on the 3rd attempt (Will explain the 3rd attempt in 2nd entry what i attempted). After countless hours of research and contacting key knowledgeable Dr’s from across the globe, It was obvious to me that I needed to get a hold of certain meds, 3 key meds (and another 2, I will be employing on my next restart as supporting aides) that are the key to unlocking this riddle… and one hopes, in recovering completely/to an acceptable level and regaining our livelihood & health. Actually getting a hold of these meds can be quite a challenge in and of itself, especially if you live in Australia as I do. If you require these meds and are having a hard time finding them, private message me… I will show you the way!

Medications – the cornerstone of any nutritious HPTA restart:

3 Key Meds:

  1. HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin)
  2. Nolvadex (Tamoxifen)
  3. Clomid (Clomiphene)

The other 2 being:

  1. HMG (Human Menopaulsal Gonadotropin)
  2. Arimidex (as Aromatase Inhibitor)

HCG & HMG to kickstart your balls!! Oh how we miss them so!

Now the way it was explained to me was like this… HCG is used to kick-start your nuts into action via stimulation of the leydig cells (testosterone producing cells) by acting as an analogue to LH (Leutinizing Hormone). LH is a hormone produced by your Pituitary Gland that signals the leydig cells in your balls to start pumping out endogenous Testosterone. Once this mechanism kicks into action Testosterone is then broken down via the enzyme 5alpha-Reductase into DHT (the very hormone we were inhibiting with Finasteride usage) and to E2 or Estradiol (a type of Estrogen) via the enzyme Aromatase. Now this poses a problem! The problem is that for us PFS sufferers, the large majority of us have had a DHT/E2 imbalance whilst taking Fin, for whatever period of time we were on it, so our bodies (some more so than others) have become natural Aromatizers.

HMG on the other hand is actually a half LH/FSH mixture. FSH (Follicle Stimulating Hormone) acts on the bulk of the mass of the Testes, namely those involved in spermatogenesis the Sertoli/germ cells. HMG can be used as a support tool for recovery, for those who are shutd-own hard in the sperm producing department. It is also used to keep HCG working optimally!
One thing we have to be very weary of when using HCG is whats called “leydig cell desensitization”. This essentially is when the leydig cells that produce test no longer respond to an LH signal and become saturated with it and down-regulation or LH receptor sites occur. Although this has been debated somewhat in circles, Still it is better to be safe than sorry! If we stick to 3 simple rules, we can prevent this from occuring and we will be in the clear. 1st rule, running 20mg Nolvadex ED alongside HCG for however long HCG is administered. 2nd rule, Limiting how many iu’s we administer on any given injection day (less than 5000iu’s!) and limiting the 3rd being usage of HCG to no more than 2 continuous months.

Enter the AI’s and the SERMS…

Nolvadex and Clomid are what you call SERMs (Selective Estrogen Reuptake Modulator), they work by acting as a synthetic Estrogen and essentially binding to Estrogen receptor sites and restricting the work of Estradiol on tissues sensitive to E2. For a restart for PFS dudes like you and me, this is critical, especially in the HCG blasting phase of our restart where there will be a high level of Aromatase activity, as your body starts to pump out its own Test. But this is not the sole reason we are using the SERMs. Their primary reason for use is to get the Hypothalamus to start pumping out higher pulsatile rates of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone) signalling to the Pituitary via blockage of negative feedback of E2. This in turn tells the Pituitary that more Testosterone is required to be produced as it believes E2 (and hence Testosterone) levels have fallen. At this point in time the Pitutary starts pumping out higher rates of pulsatile LH and FSH. Arimidex or any type of AI (Aromatase Inhibitor) works in a very different way to restrict E2 activity than the SERMs described above. The difference is the AI’s actually bind to the enzyme Aromatase and stop the conversion of Test to E2 via deactivation of the enzyme itself, much in the same way that a 5alpha-Reductase Inhibitor such as Finasteride/Dutasteride does with DHT.

Outro to Journal #1

On that note it is time for me to get to fucking bed! Tomorrow I will be discussing Doses and Scheduling over a 2 month period, Diet / Training and Supplements… and another critical factor… Stress, Cortisol and your Mind!!! (and no im not fucking kidding how important your clarity of mind is in recovering fully… tune in tomorrow to hear why!)

Signing off… Wish me luck

Beekay!

1 Like

you better read onday’s journal here. HE has done what you doing now.

Beekay,

How different is it from people who already attempted HCG?

Just request you to visit few member stories, incase if you want to tweak your dosings.

Also, Does HCG work for the ones with good LH and FSH, though there is Low T and Low Free T.

I think the Oneday person you mentioned tried something along those lines and it made him worse. But hopefully it works for you! I may try it myself at some point if I don’t recover naturally in the foreseeable future.

spstriken the protocol im going to attempt is radically different than OneDay’s even though similar meds will be used. It’s the timing, dosages and adjustments based on labs that are critical in my opinion.

Essentially the Strategy is as follows:

Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday
1 2 3 4 5 6
HCG 2000iu Nolva 20mg Nolva 20mg HCG 2000iu Nolva 20mg Nolva 20mg
HMG 75iu Arimidex 0.5mg Arimidex 0.5mg HMG 75iu Arimidex 0.5mg Arimidex 0.5mg
Nolva 20mg Nolva 20mg
Arimidex 0.5mg Arimidex 0.5mg

7 8 9 10 11 12 13
HCG 2000iu Nolva 20mg Nolva 20mg HCG 2000iu Nolva 20mg Nolva 20mg HCG 2000iu
HMG 75iu Arimidex 0.5mg Arimidex 0.5mg HMG 75iu Arimidex 0.5mg Arimidex 0.5mg HMG 75iu
Nolva 20mg Nolva 20mg Nolva 20mg
Arimidex 0.5mg Arimidex 0.5mg Arimidex 0.5mg

14 15 16 17 18 19 20
Nolva 20mg Nolva 20mg HCG 2000iu Nolva 20mg Nolva 20mg HCG 2000iu Nolva 20mg
Arimidex 0.5mg Arimidex 0.5mg HMG 75iu Arimidex 0.5mg Arimidex 0.5mg HMG 75iu Arimidex 0.5mg
Nolva 20mg Nolva 20mg
Arimidex 0.5mg Arimidex 0.5mg

21 22 23 24 25 26 27
Nolva 20mg HCG 2000iu Nolva 20mg Nolva 20mg HCG 2000iu Nolva 20mg Nolva 20mg
Arimidex 0.5mg HMG 75iu Arimidex 0.5mg Arimidex 0.5mg HMG 75iu Arimidex 0.5mg Arimidex 0.5mg
Nolva 20mg Nolva 20mg
Arimidex 0.5mg Arimidex 0.5mg

28 29 30
HCG 2000iu Nolva 20mg Nolva 20mg
HMG 75iu Arimidex 0.5mg Arimidex 0.5mg
Nolva 20mg
Arimidex 0.5mg

There is a difference in the protocol that OneDay has used and what I am planning… I believe the amount of HCG that was used in OneDay’s protocol was simply not enough to kick the nuts into gear… the key here is the previously successful use of 2000iu of HCG with 75iu HMG as support. I have spoken to individuals who have been shutdown from roid abuse who have recovered their natural test using this exact amount. Essentially comes down to slight mods to the meds being used, Dosages, Scheduling and adjustments. There is a reasoning beyond my comprehension suggested by the knowledge entailed by Dr Scally (ASIH Hypogonadism Expert) and is a protocol used by him to reverse ASIH in 1000’s of patients he has treated. The mods i’ve made have been made in consultation (geared towards DHT/E2 imbalances caused by Fin hence the use of Arimidex) with an expert on hormone replacement in my home town.

As the spreadsheet reads there are 2 phases. 1st 30 days involve the HCG/HMG blasting phase to kick-start the balls and phase 2 being the LH/FSH stimulation phase to support the Hypothalamus/Pituitary (again for a further 30 days), I will also be adding a tapering down phase of 2 to 3 weeks. If Phase 1 is successful (good T/E2 Ratio being the critical factor) then phase 2 will be initiated. If Phase 1 is unsuccesful, there is no point in initiating phase 2.

There is also the chance that the protocol will be partially successful, and this is a success in and of itself. If this is the case I will take a 2 month break off the meds… cruise… screw my GF regularly to test my shit out and get back on the 2nd run as soon as possible (keeping safety and $$$ in mind of course).

Also the timing of taking the meds has been pointed out by Dr Scally as critical (in his opinion), in order to mimic the body’s natural circadian rhythm. Therefore when coming off the meds in the tapering phase, there will be a nice smooth transition where you slowly retract the clomid/nolva and let your pituitary and hypothalamus take over from there.

Weekly labs will be taken and acted upon immediately upon learning of the lab results so that we can tweak the protocol as we are treating. I will post the bloodwork I will be getting pre, during and post and also what hormones/minerals/lipids etc… will be tested. (still tweaking this, will post shortly)

see attached schedule & dosages! please ask questions and all comments/suggestions welcome.

Beekay
HPTA-Restoration-2013-calendar.xls (242 KB)

poorvictim

I believe a normal LH and FSH would indicate a properly functioning Hypothalamus/Pituitary so IMO that would indicate a good response to the Nolva/Clomid. To the HCG… only your balls and your lab results would indicate the response. Possibly run a HCG challenge test to see how you would respond. Essentially you take you labs pre-HCG… run a shot of 5000iu in one hit and in 3 days (I believe?) get another lab to see the difference in Testosterone, free test etc… I got some shit on this at home, can post it for you tonight if you wish.

I tried this myself before my first restart and my Total T shot up from an abysmal 14nmol to 24nmol, a decent response.

Beekay

not to discourage you but I have one question. if T is our problem then why Awor and Whelan72 are here? They are and were on TRT before and after Fin use. Fin makes your own or external T unusable by your body cells.

Thanks Beekay. So when your T shot up from 14nmol to 24nmol, did u see improvement in your sexual functions?

What you say is true… I believe we all have varying degrees of androgen receptor down-regulation (again, some more so than others). I can say with certainty though during and after my last restart (using HCG,Clomid & Nolva) then when my T shot up and stayed up, that I definitely felt a lot better (physically, sexually and mentally). The best way to combat this IMO would be to raise your T and keep E2 in check, and keep it steady for however long it takes to up-regulate the androgen receptors. Unfortunately i don’t believe there is any way to test for this with labs.

poorvictim indeed i did see an improvement. Only issue was my E2 shot up as well and i did not have an AI on stand-by to combat this. Hence the addition of Arimidex for my next restart.

Rigtio friends… looks like i have to delay my restart for a further 2 weeks as i’m still waiting on the HMG & Arimidex to arrive from India and free up some funds till my next pay-check to invest in some fresh HCG … According to my calculations the shipment should be here by this friday (at the latest on monday). I’ve been reading a bit about Androgen Priming prior to any restart Protocol and actually lowering circulating LH & FSH prior to a restart to up-regulate the LH receptors on the leydig cells. Luckily for me I have some Testosterone %5 cream on hand which i’m going to run for 2 weeks beginning next monday alongside 0.5mg Arimidex EOD. This should create an environment that is ripe for HCG/HMG stimulation.

I also came across a very interesting article the other day which could explain the reasons why we all have been affected differently by finasteride and the potential risks in usage (explaining how in my case Risk1: Finasteride induced Hypogonadism) has occured which I believe is exactly what has happened to me hence my choice to try a HPTA restart and reconnect my boys to my hypothalamus/pituitary (i.e reset UP!).

finasteriderisks.blogspot.com.au/p/dht-role.html

are you sure nolvadex is the right drug to support your gnrh reactivation?
it acts as an estrogen in the prostate and blocks 5-alpha reductase activity
it might work for bodybuilders and in general hypogonal individuals who have regular 5-ar enzyme pictures but whoever tried it post finasteride suffered from prostate pain, libido issues and more testicle shrinkage
in also on to it right now, since i am very sensitive to clomid floaters
but i am seriously skeptical
using 20mg day

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7155991
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/94084

tamoxifen, induced an inhibitory effect on the activities of 5 alpha-reductase and 17 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase in the gland