…on more thing i can see is that when i sleep i get erections in the night) some times when i wake up i have them but just when my system starts to wake up erections desappear,i know many have /had the same issue so this could really be related at a nervous problem.(i think this happens cause when you are sleeping your mind and body is rlaxed enought and CNS is not concerned to outside stresses…(always just a thought)
Poking an old thread with a stick but…
OneDay, do you think you are better off now than before using your PCT program? Also, did you get the program in particular from a certain source or was it your own concoction (missed where you said that)? Is this the same PCT protocol as Crisler’s, because I can’t find his plan anywhere online.
How are you doing nowadays? Any success with the new products? Thanks!
how is going your T-level. did you improve your T-level after PCT? and if so can you sustain it?
what about your new protocol. did it work?
thanks
spstriken
Oneday vanished from this forum…Makes me think he had his own supplement site up, advertising for his own gain…I don’t know…
I sort of doubt that. It just seems more like he isn’t really feeling as badly as he did before and is back in the swing of a daily life. He was just a bit more active on the other muscle forum. Someone or myself will have to e-mail him or something to see what’s new.
For the last 6 months, I’ve been preoccupied with projects where i was working 7 days a week, so didn’t have a chance to keep you guys on my regiment, my experiences, and the success/failure of pct. I want
to apologize for being absent during that period. NO annonn1, i’m not some marketing rep for meso-rx.com, but it was your post (http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=16978#16978) that gave me a chuckle and made me want to come back to post my experience.
Experiences after PCT (hcg & nolvadex):
- hair and nails thinned severely that includes pubic, leg, scalp hair
- finger and toe nails had thinned out and became more brittle and fragile
- for 5 months my head was itchy and my skin was saturated with oil.
The oil wasn’t smooth like vegetable oil, but it had a grainy and gritty texture like lard. - I still maintain night time and morning erections.
Recovering from PCT:
In November 09, i noticed ripples on my nails, it is almost like tree rings in the nails that shows growth. The top half of the nail is thin and the lower half (closer to the cuticle) is twice as thick which is an indication of estrogen returning. My face isn’t as oily as it was before and the oil is smooth like vegetable oil. As for hair, I cannot tell if it will return to it’s original thickness prior to pct and I pray it does.
What did I learn from PCT:
i learned that pct does increase your testosterone and how you feel with the increase hormones that courses through your veins. I remember when i was on hcg, that I felt confident, gitty, and aggressive but this is unnatural to feel this way for an extended period of time. Everyone remember what they felt like prior to finasteride and you cannot tell me that you felt happy every single day. Of course not, there would be good
days, bad days, and ok days. (Remember this feeling because i’ll make references later) However, my libido hasn’t come back even with PCT and I can’t say it is a failure because it has given me perspective.
With pct, i gotten night time and morning erections consistently and 1-3 spontaneous erections per month. I find that the erections occur after I eat lunch (2-3pm) and feel kinda sleep. There could be some sort of GABA interaction there because it is only noticeable if i feel sleepy.
(Tangent)
I feel that getting a good night of sleep can only help your body recover faster, so i decide to start juicing. I bought two machines to juice vegetables, the Breville 800JEXL Juice Fountain Elite
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002VAFVG) and Omega J8006 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001L7OIVI).
Breville Juicier
Pros:
- assembly is easy
- juiced vegetables very quickly
- didn’t have to chop the vegetables prior to processing because the juicing orifice was large and you can put a large apple with chopping it up.
Cons
- there were alot of wasted juice because the juicer could not ring out the remaining juice out the fiber
- clean up was a pain because the components were big and a lot of time was spent trying to clean the mesh.
Omega J8006
Pros:
- assembly is easy and tear down was just as quick
- effectively removes all juice from the fiber
- clean up is fast
- components are small and everything will fit into the sink
Cons:
- juicing orifices is small as shit and I have to cut down apples wide enough in order to process the food.
I can tell that juicing has improved my sleep, i’m able to have deep sleep with the following recipe: 1 large beet root, 1 brocolli crown, 2-4 apples, and five large carrots. If I have that recipe during the morning, the bags under my eyes disappear and skin looks great. Juicing can get expensive so find a local food store that sells decent vegetables at an affordable price. Around me, there is Aldi and Price Rite. For example, I’m able to get 5 broccoli crowns (3 dollars), 5lbs of carrots (3 dollars) , 5lbs of apples (3 dollars), and 10 lbs of beet root (4 dollars) at Price Rite which will last me for 1 week. Juicing could have lead to the thickening of my nails but i can’t say for sure. I’ve been juicing for the last 3 months religiously and it is hard for me to differentiate whether estrogen is coming back and improving skin/nail quality or a combination of both estrogen/juicing
Back to PCT restart:
With my projects completed, I can start focusing on PCT restart except this time, I will try something that has worked for me in the past. I know that Sustain Alpha has definitely worked for me where it gave me rock hard erections, libido was 75% and every erection came with precum action. All my erections under Sustain Alpha was oozing seminal fluid from the get go and emotionally i felt aroused. Over the past few days I been trying to formulate a program for myself and figure out what i want to incorporate into this regiment. Last month, i tried out Dermacrine, sustain alpha, zmk and here are my initial experiences.
dermacrine
- The first day I applied dermacrine by Primordial Performance, i felt so confident in myself
- mental clarity was uncanny and i was making girls laugh because of my quick wit.
- testosterone must act like a regulator for thought because the difference with testosterone is night and day.
- the next day, had less of an effect and felt ok unlike the first day i tried it
- 3 days after the first dose of dermacrine, i felt depressed, sleep deteriorated with each day of use.
- I started to feel depressed after 7 days on dermacrine and decided that this product cannot be used everyday.
Sustain Alpha
- About 2 months ago, I was using an old can of the product and applied it to my body not in accordance to the instructions. I felt that there was no change in emotion, erectile quality, and no improvement to libido. It could be that it was an old can, so i ordered up a new one and applied it to my body as directed by the instuctions.
- Every morning I wake up, I use a wash cloth in the shower to wash away all the dead skin, then I apply the new formulation of Sustain Alpha and I feel more energy and happier on the product. The other
day I was at the hygenist and felt passionately engaged with her. I got tingles in my hands when she touched my hands as she was passing me the sample dental floss. I caught myself looking at her hand to
see if shewas married and I don’t think she was. Even though, she was in her 40’s but there was milf potential. haha So I think sustain alpha has merit in this new pct protocol as long as i wash my body before it is applied.
I decided to revisit an old thread of Big Sofite’s (http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4708#4708) to see if I missed read something that he did differently than I did when I originally took Sustain Alpha one year ago. Indeed, i did miss something and homeboy took Paravol and sustain alpha but I didn’t really pay attention to the Paravol part. here is his post:
The section in bold are ingredients in Paravol but I didn’t realize this until I reread his entire recovery thread. This mo fucka, should have said out right that he was on Paravol vs site the ingredients list for the product. 
As a side note, I took finasteride for 6 months vs Big Softie’s 2 weeks, so my shit will be hard to come back from than his situation. I believe that he is on the right track because I did experience libido, rock hard erections, precum, and energy a year ago on ZMK, Sustain alpha, toco, and endo amp. The new formulation of Sustain alpha smells a lot better and doesn’t have grit (ground up grape seed) compare to it’s old formulation a year ago. The only reason I tried pct (hcg and nolvadex) because it has worked for so many in meso-rx.com that is why I decided to try it. However, we have issues with finasteride side effects not anabolic steroids, so our treatment is going to be different. When I stopped ZMK, Sustain alpha, toco, and endo amp a year ago, it left me with residual benefits such as mild erections, got rid of erectile numbness, but libido remains at %10. I think maybe if I treat myself with Paravol and Sustain Alpha in the proper sequence with the addition of exercise and sleep that my body will maintain the effects that I experienced 1 year ago.
Here is my new protocol:
for 3 weeks
take 1 paravol pill daily, once in the morning and evening for 3 weeks
take sustain alpha after a rigorous shower for 5 day on and 2 days off.
after 3 weeks
I will take 1 paravol pill daily, once in the morning and evening every other day.
I will take sustain alpha on the same days that I take paravol.
I mentioned above to remember how you felt prior to Finasteride and a person could not have felt extremely happy/confident/aggressive every single day because I don’t think your body could natural produce
high amounts testosterone every single day. Everything is regulated by a clock and negative feedback, so I’m gonna try to operate under those parameters. I will coincide my exercise program when I dose
Paravol and Sustain Alpha. I need my body to increase the testosterone UPTAKE by the muscles so that the left over testosterone doesn’t overwhelm my pituitary and cause a reduction in LH production.
(analogy: It is like the movie Brewster’s Millions - A minor league baseball player has to waste $30m in 30 days in order to inherit $300m) In essence, the exercise program is used to deplete testosterone in the blood stream to reduce the negative feedback in the brain. In the future, I will to find an exercise to do every 100 to 120 mins because i want to try to restart my LH pulsation (https://digital.lib.washington.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/1773/4455/AmJObstetGyn_1990_Luteinizing_Hormone_Releasing.pdf?sequence=2). I think when you subject your body to high amounts of prohormone as in the case of finasteride users, you end up shutting down the natural clock cycle of your body. This is why my sleep is all fucked up and testosterone production only happens at night and early morning (ie: night time/ morning erections), so a proper exercise program is require for this new pct protocol. Or Maybe, I can inject myself with hcg every 120 mins but dosage is critical to induce testicles to produce enough testosterone that won’t shutdown lh production. Let me try restarting with exercise every 120 mins to see if that works. Big Softie believed in eating 6 meals a day and that may help to regulate internal cycles in the body but he didn’t overtly state that. If I use food, exercise, and sleep to regulate and control the LH clock cycle, then I may be able to get back to my former shape.
How many of us have measured our LH pulsation??? Uh, I think none of us have done that. Usually we just measure LH, testosterone, estro, and other lab work at one moment in time and we don’t know if our LH pulsation is normal. So I’m suggesting that some or most of us could have a LH pulse problem. Also, don’t get me started with lab work because i don’t think it is effective in diagnosing issues. It is not going to tell us what is happening at a cellular level and what genes are being expressed. There are some members in the forum that don’t believe 5ar gene may have been affected during the Propecia use, I beg to differ. ie: I was watching a NOVA episode (A scientific show on public TV) and they were showing how drugs can certainly affect gene expression.
nova episode link:
summary: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/teachers/activities/0403_03_nsn.html
show: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/media/downloads/NSN_MarathonMouse.mp4
It’s plausible to me that Propecia can directly or indirectly influence genetic expression just like we can influence the gene expression as shown in the Nova episode either by drug/exercise.
Today, I’m starting my PCT RESTART and took Paravol/Sustain Alpha this morning. talk to u soon. oneday
I apoligize oneday. I hope you can accept my apoligy. I’m glad you came back and gave us an update…That is great…Wish you the best bro.
Keep us informed!
I agree on this one. I think we have a regulatory issue which points to the petuitary gland. The best results I get are when I stay active throughout the day. Not constantly but bursts of activity that spike a need for T in my system. Looking forward to your results and doing pushups…
Thanks for taking the time to help, I really apprciate it.
this was an email to spstriken:
using nioxin is very different than ingesting propecia.
Here are my thoughts and my recommendation:
when i did pct, i didn’t realize the impact that it would have on my body. It made my nails brittle, hair on my scalp and pubic hairs thinned out if not fell out. Ejaculations aren’t as pleasurable as they were pre-PCT. Estrogen plays an important function in your body and for me to take nolvadex and inhibit estrogen all over my body created a lot of side effects that I mentioned above. My face and scalp became oilly and there was an intolerable scalp itch every day, especially in the morning and mid evening. Once i stopped pct, i think my testosterone levels plateaued because there was too much DHT in my scalp which causes a negative feedback, thus reducing my ability to produce more TEST.
I didn’t go get lab after pct, but i know if I feel depressed that it must mean a depletion in dopamine levels or testosterone levels. I don’t trust lab work any more because it doesn’t tell you what’s occurring a cellular level. Which is why i don’t do lab work and use my mood as a gauge of TEST levels.
With too much DHT in the scalp and the scalps proximity to the brain, i think it is pretty easy for the brain to sense that there’s too much androgen (DHT) in the system, so it reduces the frequency of LH production. This is why my balls felt kinda soft and smaller during the day after PCT. The only time my balls felt firm was in the morning. When I started using Nioxin in Feb 23, 2010, that day my balls felt firm throughout the morning, day, and night. The only hypothesis i had was that my scalp was the culprit. The signs were all there, oilly skin, oilly scalp, head itch, hair thinning (reduced estrogen played a role as well), and the feeling of malaise made me understood that I’m not producing enough TEST after pct. So Nioxin was a happy treat for me because i didn’t realize that my balls would be bigger and firmer. My ejaculate volume even increased too. After 3 weeks, was when i noticed that my mind was operating quickly, after the 4 week, I notice that the head of my penis was becoming more sensitive and my body hair became thicker, my veins on my forearms started to pop out. Now, I’m in my 6th or 7th week, my erections were harder (92%) and I’m starting to feel a little horny(56 out of 100). As a finasteride sufferer, 56% horniness is a tremendous improvement over 0% horniness.
When i think back, I wonder what Post Propecia Treatment do i try first…do i try, xyrem, Scally’s PCT, or nioxin? This is a tough question because I don’t know if Scally’s PCT jump started my balls and reduced androgen sensitive in the Pituitary which allowed Nioxin to work so effectively. This is why I will make this recommendation to you, try Nioxin system 2(cleanser and conditioner)!!! If you’re fucking balls gets firmer then you’re producing more Testosterone. I don’t know how much you know about your testes, but if you been feeling them up on a regular basis then it will help you make an objective assessment.
I feel my balls 3-6 times per day so i know if there are changes in shape, size, and firmness. To me, Nioxin is a localized treatment and nolvadex is a drug that has no scope and doesn’t discriminate, and nolvadex can give you side effects that last a very long time. I took nolvadex for nearly 3-4 months which was too long and suffered for a year from its side effects. Now with Nioxin, I’m seeing a lot of positive changes vs what i saw post PCT. Try Nioxin for 4 months then if it doesn’t work, hcg/nolvadex will always be there.
For the first month, i was putting my scalp and now, i’m using it as a body wash because I think I have too much dht in my skin. In the natural world as well as in your body, everything always tries to find balance. If i decrease the dht on my skin, somewhere else will produce more dht, perhaps, the prostate or liver. Who knows?
I’m going to post this email to the forum so ppl have an update on my progress.
oneday,do u think clomid would have been a better choice for pct?
there were reasons for me not taking clomid. Having floaters (side effect) in your eyeball doesn’t sound pleasant and joint issues was another one. I have some floaters already and it wasn’t from the use of clomid. To make a case for clomid, I read that it was more effective at making testes produce testosterone. I think you need to analyze your situation and find the thing that works best for you. Most of the time, it is trial and error for any treatment program you choose and who knows, serendipity is just around the corner.
good luck, oneday
i use to work with developmentally disabled individuals and whenever they were prescribed new medication, the doctors would warn the staff that it will take 2-3 weeks to work. The psychotic drugs needed to build up in the brain tissue before it became effective. I think it is the same way with us. We need to have enough free testosterone available to the entire body, so that cells have an opportunity for testosterone uptake, to build up its intracellular components before we can get our libido back. If we have an overactive prostate, scalp, or/and liver sucking up the available testosterone for DHT/Estrogen conversion, then the remaining cells (brain, muscles, whatever) will never get its fill of free testosterone.
My scalp was overactive and Nioxin was my remedy to suppress DHT production there. Like i mentioned my prior entry, I’m using it as a body wash suppress the DHT production in the skin and give other cells a chance to produce DHT. If I was taking propecia, then it would suppress DHT everywhere, but in the case of Nioxin, i choose to apply it to the skin. Nioxin does make a pill form of their proprietary ingredients called Intensive Therapy but it would be like taking Propecia and it is not something that i’m going to entertain.
I remember trying nioxin about 5/6 years ago. It smelled like it had Tea Tree Oil as an ingredient (which is of course estrogenic). Is this still the case?
It does have a minty smell but i don’t know if it is from tea tree oil. what i do know is that it is uses Serenoa Serrulata which is Saw Palmetto and that my friend is a dht inhibitor. I assume that the minty smell comes from Mentha Piperita (Peppermint).
Nioxin ingredients (partial list)
Achillea Millefolium(yarrow), Anthemis Nobilis(Roman Camomile), Camellia Sinensis, Citrus Grandis(pomelo), Dioscorea Villosa(Wild yam), Equisetum Arvense (Field Horsetail), Humulus Lupulus (Hop), Melissa Officinalis(Lemon balm), Mentha Piperita(Peppermint), Prunus African(Pygeum,Red Stinkwood ), Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary), Salvia Officinalis(sage), Serenoa Serrulata(Saw Palmetto), Symphytum Officinale(Comfrey), Taraxacum Officinale(Dandelion), Thymus Vulgaris(Thyme), Urtica Dioica (Stinging nettle)
I’m using the shampoo and conditioner on my body and scalp to inhibit DHT only in those regions. I don’t wash my balls/dick with it because i don’t want to decrease penial sensitivity. Increasing testosterone by DHT inhibition via scalp may not work for everyone; since most propecia sufferers already have a decreased amount of DHT. It is my belief that 3 years after propecia cessation that most individuals should have a substantial build up of DHT in their scalp at least. So Nioxin may work in that case.
I think the working theory behind propecia is that it decreases DHT as well as increase Testosterone because the testosterone isn’t being converted to DHT. However, i want to point out that some individuals may have an increase in estrogen because nothing is inhibiting the aromatase, and it is consuming the available estrogen. Based on the working theory, i believe that Nioxin operates the same way as propecia but the shampoo/conditioner only works on the regions you apply it to.
if there is Saw palmetto in Nioxin then better not use it. On hairlosstalk.com forum a guy opened SP gel cap and applied on his scalp for some time and guess what? He got the same problems/effects as we ex-fin and SP users do.
SPS
so oneday
hows the new pct protocol going with the sustain alpha and paravol?
did you stop already and how are things now?
I don’t get why OP was surprised that he felt off while on the nolva? This is a well know effect of the drug, but you should go back to normal afterwards. A lot of guys get very emotional and their libido will be depressed while on almost any SERM, but after your off you should feel better.
Although there are newers SERMS like toremifene which aren’t supposed to be as bad while you’re on them.
I did paravol/dermacrine/sustain alpha for 1 mth and stopped. I was getting some side effects such as facial breakouts, hair falling out(pct could’ve contributed), strange bumps on skin. I did see some difference in my ejeculate (more volume) but it wasn’t impressive for me to continue taking paravol.
How am I doing now… my penial shaft looks longer throughout the day (1 mth so far) and not like its usual condense mass. Penis sensitivity is steadily creeping up. Within this week, I get spontaneous erections in the morning around 7-11am as well as in the afternoons. I get about 2-3 day time erections at 85% hardness. If I don’t masterbate for three days then my ejaculate volume will flow over my cupped hand. All I’m on, is nioxin. My balls are full size, so I believe its continually generating ejaculate and testosterone.
Right now I have no desire to seek any other pct or change my regiment of nioxin. I’m comfortably waiting to see what kind of improvements there are.
Later all. Oneday
1 Like
All I can say you are definitely recovering. It will not take long before you enjoy your life again although I strongly feel this is all b/c of your PCT. I read
,don’t remember, Nolva’s good effects come later, maybe this is what you are having now.
good luck
sps