Oneday's PCT to Recovery (Correcting HPTA with Nolvadex and hCG)

Member Stories
#1

I stopped taking propecia 2 yrs ago and it has fucked up my HPTA. Initially, i was unable to have erections and no desire for sex. With the help of ZMK, sustain alpha, toco, and endoamp has restored my ability to have erections to 70-85%. I have not gotten those throbbing erections that I use to get like i did 3 yrs ago. My lab work just shows that I have low free testosterone and low normal total testosterone, so I have been searching around for the proper pct protocol to bring me back to 95-100%

Iā€™ve looked around and found that van-manā€™s protocol (on meso-rx.com) and it looks promising, so i will be persuing that over the next 8 weeks.

Starting day 1:
1. 20/20/20/20/20/20/10/5/2.5 gm of Nolvadex at 10pm (7-8 week program)

  • helps to increase LH and FSH as well as increase the sensitivity of the Pituitary to
    GnRH
  • i bought clomid online but wonā€™t be taking it due to the side effects. i have been reading
    research that shows that clomid reduces the pituitary sensitivity
    to GnRH. So it means that it takes more GnRH to stimulate LH production, therefore it will be
    harder for u to jumpstart your HPTA.

2. 250 IU HCG every other day at 10pm for 2-3 weeks

  • brings the balls from atrophy, but at this amount it will not desensitize the testes

So far, I have been on this protocol for 3 days and I have noticed that I have 2 pimples on my face and my nuts are slightly bigger. It is firmer to the touch and I have been feeling my nuts several days prior to PCT b/c I wanted to be able to perceive if there were changes.

Like many finasteride users who tried various PCT protocols, all seem to fail either because they use too much HCG, not tapering off nolvadex correctly, or using clomid for too long, but after much research i think this is a winning protocol.

It is fucked up how finasteride can wreak havoc on our HTPA and now, we have to figure stuff out for ourselves. It is not an easy journey, but a necessary one that we have to take so we can get better. Wish me luck!

1 Like
#2

HCG - has a similar structure to LH and that hormone tells your balls to produce testosterone. Taking too much of HCG will screw up your balls and it will cause your balls not to respond to LH correctly which is dangerous. If you read BigAK PCT(listed in one of the links below), then you will see that it took him 2 yrs to recover. Also, he conveyed that information via private messages to me that he took too much HCG which caused him to relapse.

for me, i need hcg to revive my balls b/c my balls are not responding to LH correctly (emperical data from my lab work). I took finasteride for about 6 month and that screwed up the communication between my brain (HPTA) and testes. Using this PCT, will hopefully restore the HPTA communication and produce the right amount of testosterone for my body. The Nolvadex is used to restore the sensitivity of my pituitary to GnRH and produce enough LH to sustain my balls. Guess what, if you donā€™t have enough LH in your system then your balls will shut down and you will have low testosterone. Right now, I have low free testosterone which Iā€™m trying to increase with PCT.

There are plenty of ways to increase free testosterone if you have normal total testosterone:

  1. take proviron to bind to SBHG and that should increase the free testosterone
  2. take Arimidex to bind to aromatase which converts testosterone/dht into estrogen
  • since i took finasteride which block the enzyme conversion of testosterone -> dht
    which gave me very bad side effects and i donā€™t want to tell someone to use a drug that
    disables enzymes.

Read the following links to bring yourself up to speed about stuff: (read all pages on each link)

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/steroid-forum/want-do-pct-right-134248858.html#post518781
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/my-pct-journal-kickstart-134243220-22.html#post517573
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/hcg-shut-down-whats-134248195.html#post514561
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/questions-about-nolvadex-134247960.html#post513109
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/restart-q-134247629.html#post511423
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/steroid-forum/the-end-had-come-134247728.html
http://mesomorphosis.com/articles/scally/ask-michael-scally.htm
http://mesomorphosis.com/articles/anthony-roberts/post-cycle-therapy.htm

#3

for ppl who want to try my protocol

nolvadex and hcg

Elite Fitness Pharmaceuticals
http://elitefitnesspharma.co.uk/

10 ML Presealed Vial (Clear)
Alcohol Prep Pads. 200 per box.
Bacteriostatic Water
Insulin Syringe with Needle

GPZ Services
http://www.gpzservices.com/

obviously consult your doctor first and donā€™t go taking any random thing that people suggest. People donā€™t give a ratā€™s ass about your safety and this is why you need to advocate for yourself. My doctor does not know how to help me which is why i have been reading up and learning as much as i can about the endocrine system. There are so many pct protocols and you have to find the right one for you. For some, taking clomid, nolvadex, and hcg, seems to work, since there are people on this forum where clomid gave bad side effects, that is why i would recommend against it.

Mike Scally (http://mesomorphosis.com/articles/scally/ask-michael-scally.htm) recommends that ppl take 1000IU hcg every other day but I seen a lot of people take 250-500 IU every other day and it works fine. I read that clomid is counter productive because it suppress pituitary sensitive to GnRH and it causes joints along with eye problems (eeso on meso-rx.com forum told me), so donā€™t take this unless everything else fails. Read Scallyā€™s article about correcting HPTA, but donā€™t follow the clomid suggestion.

Many ppl are anxious to correct their problems and will jump head first into something or feel that if they take a lot of a particular drug it will cure themā€¦ and that is totally bogus. Just be patient and see how other people respond to treatment then follow what they did.

So far, Iā€™m like the only one Iā€™ve seen that had propecia side effects and deciding to use van-manā€™s (from meso-rx.com) PCT protocol with Nolvadex tapering off to correct finasteride related issues. I will post my findings regularly so u know if this is the right treatment for u.

When i get a chance, iā€™ll post my lab work

#4

iā€™m posting the same information to/from on meso-rx.com

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/help-me-please-finasteride-134248317.html#post609250

you can follow my recovery here at propeciahelp.com or meso-rx.com.

#5

Read this article about SERM drugs and how it restored HPG function in a 29 old steroid user. i found this link in some forum but donā€™t know where. I wish i could attribute this to someone and donā€™t want to take credit for it.

Please read pages 158, 159, and 160
Impotence related to anabolic steroid use in a body builder. Response to clomiphene citrate
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1022657&pageindex=1#page

This is why it is possible to use clomid or nolvadex along with some assistance from hcg to restore HPG function.

#6

Friday, December 26,2008

I took a 2500 IU ampule and mixed it with 4ml of bateriostatic water. I used a fresh syringe to mix draw the water and put it into the sterile vial until I added another 3 ml. I added 1ml of bateriostatic water to the 2500 IU ampule and then draw 1 ml of the mixture into the sterile vial leaving me with 4 ml.

So based on my calculation:

(how much I want to take/size of ampule) x bateriostatic water ml = number of cc to inject

( 250 IU / 2500 IU ) x 4 ml = 0.40 cc

Guess what, I was stupid and I drew 1 cc (1 ml) and shot myself with that. So that is about 625 IU I took. What a dumb ass, rightā€¦ I canā€™t believe I was so stupid not to do the calculation and I total overlooked how much I was going to take. I took the shot in my upper right thigh subcutaneously and it felt kinda cool going into my fat deposit. It was the first time I ever injected myself with anything and I looked at myself with a pyschotic smile. I laughed in the mirror b/c what Iā€™m doing is fucking crazy.

I took it @ 10:30 pm and it get me some energy which made it hard to go to sleep, as well as stay asleep. The feeling was analogous to drinking coffee before bed, so all i could do was toss and turn to go to sleep. I didnā€™t take nolvadex b/c i wanted to see the difference between hcg alone and nolvadex w/ hcg. It didnā€™t affect my erections at all so far.

Saturday, December 27,2008

Well I woke up with the same erections and really didnā€™t see much a difference. I think I felt one episode of spontaneous erection at work during the day. I donā€™t remember if I had spontaneous erections at work like that before but just wanted it to be noted.

I took my first nolvadex pill at 10pm and went to bed b/c I was tired. I felt like my head was in a vise and squeezing in on my sinuses. It didnā€™t hurt but it was a momentary experience and wanted to let you know. My body did feel a little strange and wondered if I bought legit stuff. I think I did or at least I hope so.

Sunday, December 28, 2008

My nocturnal erections were more noticable without me touching my pecker to know that it was there. It just felt stronger this time around. Got out of bed to go to work and at work I a slight spontenous erection. I noticed that I have two pimple on my left cheek and I donā€™t normally get any pimples which is kinda strange. I believe it is related to the PCT protocol that Iā€™m doing right now. Iā€™ll keep you posted if I get any improvements or side effects. I pray that I donā€™t get any negative sides from this.

Tonight I took HCG out of the fridge and pump 0.40 cc into my left upper thigh. This time I didnā€™t feel the energy rush like I did the other day. I only took about 250 IU which is a little bit lower but enough not to desensitize my balls. I also took 20 mg of nolvadex at night on a semi full stomach.

I had thoughts about taking HGH today b/c I think it would help cure some of the libido issues I been having. I donā€™t feel as young as I use to and think it will help me get that feeling back.

Monday, December 29, 2008

Iā€™ve gotten a slight headache yesterday afternoon and again today at 6-8pm. It is the type of headache that is barely noticeable and important to mention just to see if there is any correlation to taking nolvadex.

My nocturnal erections a weaker than that have normally been but it is good. I use to have a hard time sleeping but taking nolvadex has assisted with my sleep quality. By no means, am i knocked the fuck out but i dream regularly, sleep without issues with the occasional toss and turn. My balls are growing from 2 days of hcg shots they are bigger in circumference and iā€™m unsure about length wise. both my left and right nuts are bigger. My unscientific measuring device is my middle finger and thumb which i hold one testicle between the fingers and roll the nut across my finger.

Took 20mg of Nolvadex at 10pm and today is an off day for HCG.

Tuesday, December 30, 2008

Yesterday, I went to bed at 12:30am which normally I sleep at 10:30pm due to exhaustion. I think the boys are kicking in people and producing testosterone b/c I had energy yesterday and didnā€™t feel sleepy. When i woke up today I was pitching a tent and was definitely 80% erect. Generally, i wake up and 30 secs later my dick goes flaccid, but today I was just chillin with my erected pecker for 30 mins and did not go down. I was feeling my balls too and they seems much bigger from the day before. I went to pee and using the same measuing procedure i noticed that me balls were definitely bigger.

I have been on this protocol for 4 days now and feel that my energy has definitely increase. I sing to myselfā€¦ I donā€™t get emotional about things like i did before this protocol. My spirits are up and donā€™t know if thereā€™s more testosterone in my blood or estrogen is being blocked from the receptor, or a combination of both. all i know that something is working. I didnā€™t get any headaches today, but my left hip has started to ache and it could be nolvadex affecting my joints. I will continue to post any afflictions i get while on this protocol.

Today, i scheduled an appointment w/ the doc to get my lab results prior to pct. Iā€™ve gone off the reservation and have bypassed his advice. He has admitted that he does not know how to cure my situation which is why Iā€™m self administering my own treatment. (This is a long freakin entry and hope the computer doesnā€™t or iā€™m screwed b/c iā€™m not typing the bullshit again) there has not been a doctor that i went to ever hearing about these side effects, let alone, how to treat this shit. Iā€™m done about ranting about my doctors. Meso is the only doctor i need

oh, i forgot to mention that there is defintely water retention in my face and my eyes lids are puffy which started when i took nolvadex.

Pretty soon, Iā€™ll be taking 250 iu of hcg and 20 milligram of nolvadex at 10pm.

#7

It has been 8 months trying bullshit remedies and natural supplements. I even flew out to Ohio to the tri state sleep clinic to get xyrem for my sleep disorder. I took xyrem for a week and sure it was euphoric but that is not I was after. I lost my nocturnal erections and had mild morning erections compared to preXyrem which was good nocturnal erections (60%) and great morning erections(80-85%). Xyrem made me tired and emotionally drained compared to happy and great energy prior to taking Xyrem.

Look, I read only 2 out of 4 people on this forum where xyrem has been successful. Now iā€™m 5th person and sure, i only took the stuff for a week, but i didnā€™t see the results. Even my midday erections were horrendous.

It has been too long and iā€™m creeping on my 2 yr mark with side effects, so i just want to get fucking cured. I thought about situation logically and weighed my symptoms against my lab results, as well as, try to hypothesis what could have gone wrong when I took propecia.

when i first took propecia, i had pain in my prostate as if it was shriveling up inside me and the very next day I no longer had any libido. There was this lesbian at work and she was dope. Tight fucking ass and great legs, so there were moments where my dick was throbbing just thinking about her, then i took propecia and all those thoughts went away. I told myself that this was natural and the side effects were documented that if i stopped things will return to normal (hind sight: that was bullshit and i should have stopped immediately)

Hypothesis (seems like everyone on this forum has a hypothesis and wanted to add my two cents)
At this point, i believe that propecia has inhibited the conversion of testosterone to dht. Hmmm, if thereā€™s a lot of free testosterone floating in your blood then Aromatase (similar to 5ar but this enzyme converts testos into estrogen) will convert the free testosterone into estradiol. If you guys been studying stuff outside this forumā€¦ youā€™ll know that estradiol has 200x the suppress pressure than 1 molar basis of testosterone on the hypothalamus. My point is that estrogen is telling your brain not to produce Luteinizing hormone (LH is used to communicate to your testes to produce testosterone.) If you donā€™t get enough LH in your blood stream then your balls will atrophy overtime. Eventually, the leydig cells in your balls will shrink and now matter how much LH is in your blood, leydig cells will not respond to generate testosterone. It is pretty simple right! It is only anecdotal but it is may be why ppl are more emotional and they develop gyno do to high estradiol. You only develop gyno if you are genetically predisposed. Just like we are genetically predisposed to get permanent side effects from finasteride. Yes, i know, propecia sucks balls!

So if you stop propecia, there will be a gradual increase of DHT, but the aromatase in your body have become very active and efficient at converting testosterone into estradiol, also it also have the capability of converting DHT into estradiol too. Now your body is getting such a huge dose of estradiol (200x the suppress force) in your body and it shuts down your hypothalmus from producing GnRH which causes the pituitary NOT to produce LH. Without LH, your balls shut down, you become an an emotional wreak b/c of estradiol and the lack of testosterone.

After we stop FIN, 99% of us are emotional, lack libido, inability to maintain erections and it is due to high estrogen. Estrogen has a role in libido just as much as testosterone, but too much estrogen could be blocking the same libido receptors that are used by testosterone.

too much of a rant and iā€™m going back to why i started with this pct.

If your balls have atrophied, then you have to wake them back up, so I thought about steroid users and their shrunken balls. I can honestly say that i have never thought about another guys balls, but this is the only exception.
:laughing:
This is why i went to www.steroids.com to research drugs and various Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) protocol. I found Mike Scally and Anthony Roberts PCT articles on meso, so who is right b/c both guys seem to provide great information about the Hypothalmus-Pituitary-Testicular- Axis (HPTA). PCT is used to restore the HPTA back to what it was prior to taking steroids and i figured that one of these programs will work for me.

From my lab work, iā€™m producing enough LH but I have noticed that i have grape size balls and need to resurrect the atrophy testes. It takes about 2-3 weeks on 250iu to 500 iu HCG, but taking too much will fuck up your balls and screw your pct for months (read meso to find out.) Hcg will create a lot of estrogen and testosterone from your testes, so u need nolvadex to stimulate your brain to produce LH and FSH, resensitize your pituitary to GnRH(makes your brain require less GnRH to produce LH), and block the estrogen receptors (prevents gyno). Using nolva will get your brain use to producing LH and with your balls running at full steam after hcg treatment, so when u taper down on nolva your HPTA should be self sufficient and produce testosterone naturally. With the nolvadex, this is done for 6-16 weeks and iā€™m on the 8 week program. If the pct fails me than i will seek a longer protocol. Tapering off this drug is the most important part of the pct to avoid estrogen shock and give your body time to adjust to estradiol levels. Users on meso claimed that their libido were affect while on nolvadex, but exponentially increased during the tapering off phase.

I only work 3 days and have 4 days to fuck around, so I have been learning and reading hundreds of web pages about this shit. Iā€™ve looked on this forum for similar protocols, but there isnā€™t any. Some tried HCG, CLOMID, and NOLVADEX, but have failed. It doesnā€™t deter me tho because they donā€™t tell us the combination, dosage, and duration, so i canā€™t trust their postings. My goal is to document as much as i can and become a resource to people if this ends up working. Iā€™m tired of fin sides and want things back to normal.

Remember, iā€™m not a doctor so hereā€™s a disclaimer: use this information at your own risk. :smiley:

#8

I saw this in one of the recoveries topics
http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=537

Based on reading meso-rx.com, I found a posting about aromatase inhibitors (AI) b/c i was interested in trying AI to block the conversion of TESTOS/DHT into estradiol, but decided against it when i read this posting. It seems that once you stop the aromatase inhibitor that it causes a complete HPTA stall then youā€™ll have to start your pct all over again. READ BELOW

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/steroid-forum/want-do-pct-right-134248858.html#post518781

van-man on Meso
Senior Member

Think about it, ppl took finasteride (5ar Inhibitor) to block conversion of testosterone to dht, and now, ppl want to take Arimidex (Aromatase Inhibitor) to block conversion of androgen into estrodiolā€¦ iā€™m sorry, but we fucked up once before with FIN and donā€™t think about locking up the natural enzyme function is a quick fix to give yourself more free testosterone. I honestly believe that FIN stalled our HPTA and using FINā€™s cousin Arimidex will just do the same, and youā€™ll just be fucked up for a long time. I talked to solonjk over skype and he told me that doctors recommended that he took CIPRO based on his doctors advise, and it gave him yr long headaches and floaters in his eye. I use to watch X-FILES when i was young and the showā€™s motto was TRUST NO ONE.

My point is that doctors donā€™t always know what they are talking about and it is better that you consult with a person whoā€™s tried it, which is why i go to steroid forums. Youā€™ll find pragmatist, overzealous, or novice individuals that experiment with these type of drugs, and you can ask about the outcome. I find that steroid users over on the other forum are more active with their postings and when u send a private message, they get back to you unlike here. This is a great forum and donā€™t want to knock it, but there are horrendous users probably because you feel depressed and donā€™t want to think about your problems, but donā€™t leave us stranded. Or you are completely cured and decided that you donā€™t need this site no more b/c that is fucked up and we rely on your postings to get better ourselves. I feel sorry for myself too but Iā€™m not going to stop trying and if iā€™m cured then iā€™ll answer any questions i know. Just believe that a cure is out there and you just need to be a little more active in your approach. So donā€™t give up!

#9

Wednesday, December 31, 2008

Today is day 5 of my pct protocol and yesterday I took 250 iu hCG in my right butt cheek and nolva @ 12:30am (i was suppose to take the pct @10pm but I was typing all night and lost track of time). I didnā€™t sleep well yesterday b/c circadian rhythm is much attuned lately ever since I took hCG and nolvadex. Every weekend I wake up at 5:30am to go to work and on my off days I still wake up at 5:30am but go back to sleep with brief episodes of awakenings. Prior to PCT, I would never have a compeling desire to wake up at 5:30 and just would sleep through it. It is tolerable and Iā€™m not going to stress about it.

When I woke up this morning, there was a mild morning erection and balls seem maybe 1-2% smaller, but it is a 48% improvement since Iā€™ve started this PCT. At first, I thought that the hcg I used were deteriorating and may have to mix another vial. I noticed that my balls get bigger on the off days when Iā€™m not taking hcg, so Iā€™ll wait till tomorrow for results. Here are links about how long HCG will last:

HCG vial in fridge
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/steroid-forum/hcg-vial-in-fridge-134252999.html
HCG out of refrigerator
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/hcg-out-of-refrigerator-134238471.html

Sure, I had thoughts about jacking up the dosage of hcG b/c I didnā€™t see any results, but I had to calm myself down. Cā€™mon it is only 5 days since I began this protocol, so I want to think with logic and not with my balls. Haha. Also I thought that maybe shooting hcg into my butt cheek could have been a reason why it was ineffective but like I said, Iā€™m going to calm down and wait.

It has been 2 yrs since coming off of propecia and I donā€™t really remember the size of my balls prefinasteride, so thereā€™s nothing to compare it to. It may be possible that they are back to their normal size and will need to rely on lab test to determine if thereā€™s an increase in testosterone.

In a prior posting, I mentioned that I had headaches and hip pain, and have not had those symptoms today. I donā€™t feel any emotion side effects from this PCT protocol, unless you consider happiness a side effect.

Semen quality has improved lately and it is not as watery as it used to be. Orgasms seems muted and not as pleasurable, maybe it is a direct side effect of nolva. As for erection strength, Iā€™m going to say that erections are stronger under this protocol then without it.

Today I will be taking just nolvadex @10pm.

#10

Thurday, January 1, 2009

Keeping a journal like this is a pain, but it is part of the healing process. It serves as documentation and a audit trail for me and others to review.

So, this is day 6 and I noticed that my nocturnal erections are weaker than usual (prior to pct) but they are more frequent and consistent throughout the night. Every time I wake up from my sleep i notice that Iā€™m erected. This seems natural b/c weā€™re suppose to get erections during REM sleep, so far, my dreams are not sexually explicit (i wish it was tho b/c i havenā€™t had a wet dream in 3 yrs) and they are just the typical dreams about work, or about day to day stuff, but i have been dreaming about a female co worker (sheā€™s married) lately.

First thing this morning, i woke up i felt my ball size and it was firm. i think the lower half of my testes are filling in. Iā€™m going to bump up the dosage of hcg to 300 iu hcg and pump it into my thigh sub q bc i think i get better results that way. Iā€™m going to go out and buy some 1000 iu Vitamin E to enhance the affects of hcg on the testicles (Read about this combo by forum users and Anthony Roberts).

After checking out the balls, i decided to test myself with a little youporn.com to see if there has been any improvement between visual stimulation and arousal. Prior to pct, there were days where visual stimulation was not enough and i had to assist it with physcial stimulation to get excited. Well, just watching some milf got it going and mr jones went from flaccid to who is yo DADDY. It was completely erect 90% and lasted for 10-15 minutes. Over the past few days, the structure of my dick looked healthy. It doesnā€™t look wrinklely, prune like, or scared like it has during the past few years and my gential skin was smooth, as well as relaxed.

Just as a follow up, I donā€™t have anymore headaches and maybe the headaches were a temporary side effect of my body getting use to nolvadex. Also, I havenā€™t gotten any left hip pain since that day i complained about it. I hope that it doesnā€™t come back.

Tonight i will be taking vitamin e, hcg, and nolvadex at 10:30pm.

Happy Years People. I hope that you have a joyful new beginning, along with continued success throughout the year. oneday

#11

Friday, January 2, 2009

This is the 7th day of the PCT and there are 49 days remaining. I had my share of fuck ups with this protocol and one of them is using needles. i was trying to inject HCG into my thigh sub q while standing. i lifted my leg up (picture a Captain Morgan stance), so i was injecting the hcg in the thigh then my leg got tired. when you try this, youā€™ll notice that you canā€™t just push the plunger rapidly b/c your body can only accept so much at a time. It should take about 30-60 secs for 0.5-1 cc respectively for the injection. So my leg was getting tired and couldnā€™t hold that position anymore then my leg dipped and needle came out. My dilemma was do i stab the need back in or reload a fresh needle with fresh hcg. I decided to be safe than sorry and went with the fresh hcg and syringe. For ppl out there, you already have issues with propecia and you donā€™t need to introduce more issues into your life b/c of a non sterile syringe. So sterilty is paramount and donā€™t fuck this up. I had .28 cc left in the old syringe and just added fresh .28 cc of hcg from the sterile vile into a fresh syringe. Since i used my right leg already, i pinched some skin from my left leg while sitting down this time and injected the fluid sub q.

here was my calculation for hcg:

(how much I want to take/size of ampule) x bateriostatic water ml = number of cc to inject

( 300 IU / 2500 IU ) x 4 ml = 0.48 cc

I didnā€™t mix a fresh batch and this calculation was based on how much I mixed the batch originally. The amount of 2500 IU was the size of the ampule (glass bottle of powder hcg) and the 4 ml is the bateriostatic water i used. I didnā€™t add any fresh fluid or powder to the batch and i had to recalculate b/c i increased my dosage from 250 IU to 300 IU and you have to figure out how many cc are you suppose to take. For a dosage of 300 IU, i took 0.48 cc this at 11:30pm

This morning I was erected again and throughout the night, and i can definitely get use to this. Now i almost expect to have an erection every morning, but one thing that is surprising is that after i had my 4am pee session, i was still erected. So i wake up at 9am and go through my routine which testing out my testicular size. there was no improvement in size, but wanted to mention that there was improvement since day 2. (this is for people out there who wants specifics) On day 2, my testes were cylindrical in shape analogous to a submarine torpedo and it has been gradually taken the shape of a slice of clementine. As for my morning erections, they are somewhat bendable (70%) but if i think about something erotic or concentrate on kegel exercises then it will go from 70% to 85% which is unbendable along the shaft. Everyoneā€™s scale for a good erection is different, so here is my scale:

70% - 79%
erected enough to have shape (pitch a tent),
but it is still bendable

80% - 89%
erected and the only point that it is bendable at the pivot point at
the shaft and balls

90% - 95%
great to have sex with and donā€™t have to worried
about the performance of your equipment

96% - 100%
erected and throbbing which is my goal

later ppl. oneday

#12

Sounds intense,

I wish you good luck!

Let us know how it turns out and if you notice any signs of recovery. :sunglasses:

#13

Saturday, January 3, 2009

Day 8 of pct, I took only nolvadex last night and this morning of i had a poor morning erection (60%) due to poor sleep. Looking back, a few months ago I wasnā€™t sleeping that well and I had 1-2 instances of nocturnal and morning erections throughout the week. It all improved as I got better sleep through the use of melatonin 300mcg and gaba supplements. I would take it for 1 week on followed by 1 week off because i didnā€™t want to sensitize my body and reduce dependency to those supplements. Erections became numerous and numerous with each week that went by. I kept a very good sleep schedule and went to bed at 10:30pm and woke up every morning at 7am. I made sure that the tv was off at 9pm bc I didnā€™t want to stimulate my mind and emotions with sports or something interesting, such as Terminator: Sarah Cronicles, or 24 (this show definitely gets the heart beating). Now, u know what shows i like, but u have to admit the girl that plays terminator in that show is hot (Summer Glau) and i wouldnā€™t mind banging the mom (Lena Headey) either. :smiley:

In terms of ball size, thereā€™s no improvement and my balls grow then shrink throughout the day. It is biggest during the mornings and its smallest at night. So measure yourself in the morning to get an accurate reading. It is probably best if you do this in a hot shower b/c your testes will probably hang in the warm environment.

I noticed that there was a decrease in scalp itch and hair loss when taking nolvadex. Iā€™m not advocating that nolvadex is a tool for hair loss prevention, but it is an observation that i notice. Every morning that i wake up, there is an immediate itchy sensation the permeates throughout my scalp. Now, i get a slight isolated itch in the evening and it last a split sec. when i shower, i noticed that there are maybe 5-9 hairs falling out versus 12-15 hairs. Like all of you before propecia, I worry about losing all of my hair and want to keep every strand as long as possible. Many of you, will say who gives a shit about hair and it was the main reason why we are in this mess. Still tho, i still want hair b/c i still want to keep my boyish charm and I donā€™t have a shapely scalp like Michael Jordan. If I had a nice scalp, then sure, it wouldnā€™t be that devastating to lose my hair. With the nolvadex, donā€™t get your hopes up about using it to save hair and I think the hair follicles will fall out sooner or later. I still have hair coverage all over my head, but under a strong light or sunlight, you can definitely see scalp. Iā€™m worried guys!

Iā€™m going to mix a new batch of hcg and here are my instructions(if you find a legit site on mixing instructions then let me know b/c iā€™m just doing based on what i read on forums):

Mixing Instructions:

materials

alcohol pads
100 IU, 1cc (1ml) insulin syringes
2500 IU hcg ampule
10 ML Presealed Vial
30 ML bateriostatic water

  1. First figure out the calculation given the materials you have. I have a 2500IU ampule of hcg and I want to take 300IU of hcg subcutaneously. I want to add 5 ml of bateriostatic water which is an increase from 4 ml that i have been using. The reason I added 1 more mililiter is to allow the mixture to flow more freely throughout my body. There is no scientific evidence for this and it is what i just thought up on my own.

(how much I want to take/size of ampule) x bateriostatic water ml = number of cc to inject

( 300 IU / 2500 IU ) x 5 ml = 0.60 cc

remember 1 ml is equal to 1 cc

  • Iā€™ll be taking 0.60 cc of the mixture for a dosage of 300IU into my thigh every other night

  1. Wash your hands

  2. Wipe the hcg ampule vial with a fresh alcohol pad

  3. Wipe the Presealed sterile vile with a fresh alcohol pad (this is what youā€™ll store the remaining HCG)

  4. Clean the bateriostatic water bottle with a fresh alcohol pad

  5. Using a fresh sterile syringe draw 4 ml of bateriostatic water and place it into the Presealed sterile vile.

step by step breakdown:
a) using your insulin and draw in 100 IU of air then add this air to bateriostatic water to increase the air pressue.
b) once the air is added, then draw 100 IU of the bateriostatic water(if you didnā€™t add the air from step a) then youā€™ll have a hard time drawing down the plunger b/c of the negative air pressure)
c) pull out the need and add it to the presealed sterile vile.
d) follow steps a), b), and c) for another 3 times, and this will leave 4 ml of bateriostatic water in the presealed sterile vial.

  1. Break open the glass ampule of hcg along the line.

  2. Using a fresh syringe, draw in 1cc of air and then add to bateriostatic water.

  3. Extract another 1cc (1ml) of bateriostatic water and place it into the ampule of hcg powder. You should see it dissolve instantly!

  4. Extract the mixture and put it into the presealed vial which will leave you with 5 ml of hcg solution.

  • you should buy some long needles b/c it can be hard to draw out the mixture from the long ampule vials

  1. Using a fresh needle draw in 0.60cc of air then add to the presealed vial and draw out 0.60 cc of the hcg mixture from the presealed vial. Then I choose an injection site and wipe the area with an alcohol pad and once the alcohol has dried, then i inject myself.
    NOTE: everytime you stick the needle into the presealed vial it will dull your needle.

  2. Put the presealed vile of hcg into the fridge

I heard that the hcg should last about 1 week to 30 days, but it will lose potency as time goes on. For me, Iā€™ll mix a new batch weekly.

Today, iā€™ll be taking hcg, vitamin E and nolvadex.

#14

Sunday, January 4, 2009

Day 9 of PCT, so far, Iā€™m satisfied with the ongoing results that iā€™ve been getting. Last night, I had one of the best night of nocturnal erections. It was very hard and strong, so you knew it was there. There was no need to reach down and feel if it was there or not. each night, erections have gotten progressively better and usually iā€™ve seen marked inprovements every couple of days during the pct. It could have been that I took vitamin E with the hcg which made hcg more effective but who knows. I had a very slight morning erection 25%, maybe b/c i only slept for 6 hrs.

Iā€™ve read that hcg is more effective in a Pulsurary administration and I think if I take low dose 150 IU hcg at the end of the day everyday, then i may see better results. Iā€™ll try this over the next couple of days to see if I notice any improvements.

My libido is unchanged and I thought that it was coming back this afternoon, I almost felt it building up, but never made it. It could be a sign that my body is becoming more chemically balanced and who knows, my libido may be back soon.

Summary of Improvements during PCT

  • More Frequent nocturnal and morning erections
  • Better Semen quality and quantity
  • Feeling more confident and happier
  • Feeling ambitious again about my career,
    tackling home projects and in life.

tonight, iā€™ll take 150 IU of hcg, vitamin E, and nolvadex

#15

Oneday, everyone,

I too have wondered whether my testicles have atrophied, and/or whether they are really smaller or not, or just whether I am paranoid and so they may just seem smaller, so I am wonderingā€¦

ā€¦Does anyone think that a professional full panel ā€˜semen analysisā€™ could tell us anything about testicular health/production/size etc.??

Please chime in people. This is maybe a good test, or something to look into.

And PS. great journal Oneday. I like! Good luck. I will be following, and hoping for you. Peace man.

#16

It is good to hear from you Boston, iā€™m in the area all the timeā€¦also thanks for the encouragement and kind words. GO CELTICS!!!

since i never had a semen analysis done and it doesnā€™t tell you anything vital. they just tell you about sperm quantity and motility, and it could be misleading. if you are producing less FSH then of course your semen quality is going to be low. I donā€™t think iā€™ll get that test anytime soon and will just go with the eyeball test. If you can see it then it means it is working. My seminal fluid is thicker on PCT and less watery. To put it simply, ejaculate has the consistency of snot and thereā€™s more of it now.

As for your balls, I think that it is possible that your ball size is fine but you cannot tell whether or not you leydig cells have shrunken. Sure, you are producing testosterone which is an indicator that some of your leydig cells are working, but who is to say that they are firing on all cylinders (American expression for ā€œtop performanceā€ since i have foreign readers). Also, if you have had low testos for a long time then your body and brain gets use to low testosterone , so if you have a slight increase in testos then the hypothalamus will down regulate the LH in your system. if you plan on using hcg, then you almost have to go onto PCT to keep your brain in check along with your balls.

Anyways, Jimmyjohn took a high dose at 4000iu of hcg and it was able to revive his balls to produce greater testosterone, as well as, maintain it. so who knows, maybe one high dose will get things started or small little dose over time with nolvadex (resensitize pituitary as stated by galapagos http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4271&highlight=various+points+treatment+nolvadex+clomid#4271) will get things going again.

jimmyjohnā€™s story about hcg
http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2065

Look forward to hearing from you again. oneday

#17

a user on meso asked me the following question and will post it here, just in case, you ppl had the same question.

hey andysutils,

I took finasteride to prevent hairloss and maintain the hair that i had. It was simply vanity and I cared a lot about how i looked. In hind sight, i should have never took propecia and some ppl may harp on my case, but I had very thick hair at the time when i took the drug. I have gone through a lot with this drug and itā€™s side effects. I wonā€™t tell people not to take the drug b/c the drug worked for my friend to restore his hair back, but for some of us, youā€™ll have side effects for yrs. Iā€™m gradually getting better but donā€™t know if my libido will ever be restored and this is why i started PCT.

It is Russian roulette for finasteride users and you donā€™t know if youā€™ll be the unlucky individual. I should have thought about this with greater humility when i first considered propecia. I had great hair and ungodly libido, now, my hair has thinned since the first month I started propecia and my libido has not recovered. I donā€™t get random sexual thoughts and no more of those throbbing, pulsating, rod-like, youthful erections. I thought that my libido was so strong that propecia would just dull it for a little bit while on the drug and return upon cessation of FIN, but contrarily to what i thought, it completely took away all desire within the 1st day of use. To those who have the same 1st day experience of usage, that is probably in their best interest to stop immediately and consider a good PCT program to maintain their HPTA while your body recovers from the drug.

I was in a total funk for the last 1.5 yrs b/c of the hormonal imbalance. Upon cessation of FIN, I had uncontrollable anxiety and it would manifest itself when i was trying to sleep, so i couldnā€™t get a restful nightā€™s sleep for 1 year. Taking ZMK, sustain alpha, toco, Reset A.D., and endo amp got rid of the anxiety and I began to sleep better in April-May 08. My sleep is not like what it was 3 yrs ago and if i had to put a percentage on it, then i would say it is about 80% percent recovered.

If Finasteride was a person, then i would say the following: You are a cum tasting,smelly cunt sniffing, ball jerking. asshole-licking, salad tossing, fudge playing, nut guzzling, toilet floater bobbing, roast-beef eating, child porn-surfing, hemroidal, small-dick fucking, crooked titty fucking, snot eating, crab infested pussy snorting, vaginal yeast itching, fart sniffing, stupid asshole jerk! :smiley:

whew, venting felt GOOD. when i get a chance tonight then i will post my 10th day entry in the PCT log. take care. oneday

#18

Monday, January 5, 2009

Lab Results

  • Iā€™ll my complete lab results tomorrow when i get a chance.
    12/22/08

FSH 3.3 (1.4-18.1)mIu/ml
LH 3.0 (1.5-9.3)mIu/ml
DHT 264 (112-955)pg/mL
Total Testosterone 572.83 (241-827)ng/dl
Sex Hormone Bind Globulin 26 (10-60)nmol/L

  • results were prior to PCT protocol,
    but I was taking Royal Jelly, and melatonin at the time
  • Doctor did not do test for free testosterone

11/24/08

FSH 2.9 (1.4-18.1)mIu/ml
LH 2.5 (1.5-9.3)mIu/ml
Free Testosterone 4.8 (12.4-40.0)pg/ml
DHT 319 (112-955)pg/mL

  • was taking zmk at the time but wasnā€™t really sleeping
    well.
  • I had stopped Sustain Alpha, Reset A.D, toco, endo amp 4 months ago b/c i thought it was making my hair thin.
  • Doctor did not do test for total testosterone

03/18/08

FSH 3.5 (1.4-18.1)mIu/ml
LH 5.1 (1.5-9.3)mIu/ml
DHT 288 (112-955)pg/mL
Total Testosterone 470.51 (241-827)ng/dl
Sex Hormone Bind Globulin 19 (10-60)nmol/L

  • 6 mths after the cessation of Finasteride and
    before any supplements were taken

Tenth day on PCT, I took another dose of 150 hcg and 20 mg nolvadex yesterday. I experienced some erections throughout the night and had pretty decent morning erection. My erection was hard but it was bent at the pivot point between the balls and shaft, and laying on my left leg. I would say that the erection quality was 80% and wilted after i peed. December was a remarkable month for me and I made enormous progress in my sleep quality which translated to my lab results. My total testosterone went from 470.51 (03/18/08) to 572.83 (12/22/08) which is above average. This could explain the night time erections (although weak) and mornings erections (3-5/wk) that was getting prior to PCT. My erection quality are so much stronger now, that it is possible that my testosterone is in the 650-700 range. Based on the recent lab results, I should not be taking hcg b/c my balls seem to be working, so says the doctor. I donā€™t know the upper range of my testosterone before propecia, so i cannot say if 572.83 is right for me. Maybe it could have been lower or higher, and I just donā€™t know. So, the game plan is not to desensitize my balls and I will be taking my last dose of hcg this Sunday.

I mentioned that my balls grew a bit on the 3rd day of PCT and it seems that will not grow anymore. Lab results reflect that my testes are functional as of 12/22 and generating testosterone. I donā€™t know if i should jump the gun to attribute the increase in testosterone to anything but it could be better sleep or royal jelly that helped. Supposedly, Royal Jelly helps with impotence and sleep issues. Just click on the link to see the specific brand of royal jelly i was taking but i didnā€™t buy it from this website (http://www.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=3127256). If someone wants to give it a shot, then go for it and let me know how it works out for you. Iā€™ve tried other brands of royal jelly but the brand on the website seems to work the best. I would take 1 capsule at 10:30pm to sleep better and it made me sleepier in the afternoon as well. I have yet to take a daytime nap since i stopped fin 2 yrs ago, but it will be a definite sign of improvement if I was able to nap.

One of the sides that Iā€™m starting to despise are the puffy regions of my eyes and nolvadex is notorious for this. Even if I got great sleep, I still have the unrested eyelid look and it is making me look older. Shit, i canā€™t wait until this program is finished and get rid of this side effect. so far on hcg and nolvadex, there are really no side effects, other than the puffy eyes.

While i was feeling my testicular size in the bathroom, I immediately got an erection and it had great size, as well as strength. After Fin, that type of stimulation would not have garnered any arousal, but it did this time. It could be a sign of improvement.

I have to admit, that my penile shaft and skin is looking healthier everyday. I mentioned in a prior entry that my pecker use to look shriveled up, but no matter how cold the northeast gets, my penis is relaxed and flaccid in the cold weather. When I am peeing throughout the day, I notice that my internal structure has a soft center and longer in length compared to 1 month ago, which was a hard condensed mass and shrunken in length.

Alright enough about shafts and i just want to say to all my readers out there, thank you for your comments and well wishes. I pray to god that this works for me and others. oneday

#19

Hey Oneday

Just wanted to stop by to say thanks very much for this detailed journal of your PCT, and best of luck with it.

For all the talk of kickstarting T production we hear around here, I think this is the first detailed description of a gold-standard PCT that uses HCG to fire up the testes, and a tapered dose of Nolva to maintain the expected rise in T.

Itā€™s the protocol Iā€™ve been considering for a while now, so of course Iā€™m following your progress with interest.

Can I ask for some advice? My sleep is terrible, did you find anything else that helped apart from Royal Jelly? Iā€™m going to give that a try.

Thanks again, and peace to you and all members here in the New Year.

#20

Before all of this, Iā€™ve never written in a journal in my life until recently. After reading all the bullshit entries by people, there wasnā€™t enough detail and information. Every time i checked for some morsel of information, there wasnā€™t any, everytime i checked for an update, there wasnā€™t any. So for my PCT, i knew that iā€™m not just doing this for me but for ppl who rely on these entries for information, so they can create their custom recovery protocol. It doesnā€™t take a lot to write a journal and you just literally need an outline. I normally come up with a logical list as shown here, then i just write about it:

Journal List:

Morning erection quality
Nocturnal erection Quality
How to mix HCG
How to inject HCG
Nolvadex administration (do you take it as a suppository or orally) haha. of course, you only take this orally.
Semen Quality
Other Observations

Shit ppl, it is not difficult to keep a journal and everyone should do it. If you have only 30 mins then just bullet point your observations without going into too many tangents like i do, but hey, to each is their own. You owe it to people who are considering taking finasteride or having side effects after cessation. I think at some point during all these side effects, you probably beat yourself for not getting initial blood tests prior to taking propecia and now, you have all this post-blood work that fall into normal ranges and you have nothing to compare it to. My point is that you had an opportunity to capture crucial data about yourself and you lost the chance because no one told you to do it, or the lab costs were prohibitive, which is the same as keeping a journal. Take the opportunity now to document what you know so you have something to compare afterward. I donā€™t really remember exactly how long i was on propecia and i have to think back, hmmmā€¦was it 6 months or 8 months that i was on propecia, but if i had kept a journal, then i would know precisely. You guys get the point.

To be honest, in the beginning i never liked to write in the journal because i didnā€™t think i have anything to say, but time went on and i have a reservoir of information that i wanted to pass along, and iā€™m doing it! It gets easier and easier everyday because your mind starts thinking about topics automatically for the journal. I generally go through my day normally, then iā€™ll check my ball size which will spawn off past memories which serves as topic points, or just random events that i come across and iā€™ll make it a point to bring it up during the write phase of my day.

Just some friendly advise. oneday.