I have a theory that I would like to share. First let me start off by saying this is obviously my own perspective and I believe that all solutions come from rational, logical theorizing, and of course clinical results which I hope will come soon. I am not a doctor and I will not preach that I understand the complexeties of the situation, but I hope to lay some groundwork here so perhaps the “real” science guys can dig into it a bit more. I understand all of us are tired of hearing theories, but I believe each theory adds to the overall picture of what is happening to us. Over the last 5 months I have dealt with this, I have seen some trends on the discussion boards that are becomming more and more apparent. In other words, aside from incrediulous and outlandish theories, many of these theories are becoming more and more…well grounded in logic. Just some things to keep in mind with regards to our blood/hormone tests. I spoke today with a prominent endocronolgist regarding ranges and results, he told me that (1) unlesss he sees wild out of range numbers he does not focus in because hormone can fluctuate incredibly within the day and only provide a mere snapshot of the moment, (2) he never treats ranges or numbers but rather patients and symptoms, and finally (3) ranges are meaningless if balances have been effected. He told me hormonal imbalances are so difficult to treat because our body chemistry is different and we never know the exact balance. So, having said all this, here is what I feel might be happening.
I took propecia for almost 9 years symptom free until I decided to stop taking it. Once I stop taking it all of the symptoms we talk about happened to me, dry red face, chest, and arms, legs and forearms got thinner (also stated previously as muscle wasting, but as I share my theory I dont beleive it is muscle wasting at all), lost 25 pounds in 3 weeks, digestive problems, liver pain, lowered body temp, brain fog, etc and of course ALL of the sexual dysfunction side effects. This was roughly 5 months ago.
I will start off with a premise that something unique binds us all. I will also start off with the premise that Merck’s clinical trials were not fraudulent, and that the subset group tested actually did have resolution of their symptoms fairly quickly. After reading countless posts, we all share a very unqiue personailty trait which is reflective of a specific body chemistry. Answer this, how many of you were outgoing, extremely energetic, talkative, passionate, slightly OCD sufferers, always wanting to be right, goal oriented, politician like, before all of this happened? After some research, it seems that we are all characteristic of people with naturally higher histamine levels. Again, you may not test high histamine and you may not have been affected by allergies. Higher histamine people generally tolerate medication better (how ironic since obviously this one wasnt by us). What I found most interesting about this personality type, is that generally men with higher histamine levels (again levels in the brain, not necessairly binded or unbinded in the skin/body at receptor sites) have lower DHT/testosterone levels. Inversly, men with lower histamine levels have higher DHT/testosterone I know for 100% certain that I was not going bald and I dont believe I had MBP when I took this drug. I took it has a precaution…basically I believe I had lower DHT levels. I am also willing to go out on a limb and suggest that those most adversley affected by finasteride (like myself) still have their hair, or mildy diffused thinning. Also, have you experienced (now and in the past) a phenomenon known as telogen effluvium or a diffuse form of hair thinning. Did anyone see massive thinning after a stressful change such as college stress or a bad breakup? Did you see yourself thinning (and understandably so) and others tell you that you were crazy for taking this or that you hair was fine?
It had been mentioned before on this sight that this drug was tested on men with male pattern baldness, but not men with a natural receding hairline or perhaps a difuse hair thinning pattern. So why is this so important? Further research indicates that finasteride inhibit both 5-Alpha reductase as well as the process that leads to the creation of progesterone. However, I read that it does not block 100% of it, I think the number was like 75% or 80%. Perhaps for a man with high DHT, they may function perfectly normally with a 80% reduction, but what about the people who have lower DHT/testosterone to begin with? My theory suggests that by lowering our DHT to such degree, it forced our histamine levels to rise even higher. Your body’s only natural defense against high histamine is cortisol secretion. So, once cortisol is elevated the havoc begins. As mentioned previouly, finasteride is known to block progesterone (or the process which progesterone is derived). Cortisol basically blocks the progesterone recptor sites. Now here is the kicker, even with normal to high levels of progesterone, the cortisol can still block its receptor sites so you would be depleted of progesterone. What are the key symptoms (also the same symptoms related to high cortisol) low libido, low testosterone, depression, no protection from estrogen dominance, low energy, frequent urination, HYPOTHYROID symptoms, and no protection from bulding veins (anyone with vericose, spider veins in the penis?)
Ok if you are still with me, I will move on. So low progesterone, or worse…blocked progesterone sites will lead to something I think we all have…estrogen dominance. We know the all the symptoms of estrogen dominance (or as most websites call it, what it fundamentally is…progesterone deficiency) These symptoms include infertility, erectile dysfunction, enlarge prostate, and of course Gyno. Oh and finally, what does estrogen dominance do…you got it raise histamine levels and we are caught in this continuous loop, this cycle that many of us experience.
Although I feel pretty bad most of the time, I have very strange symptoms, which cycle, that are so indicative of estrogen dominance. These include inflammed and excessive tooth recesion even with outstanding dental hygiene, increase in mid section weight, and most notably something called Eustachian Tube Dysfunction with Non-Allergenic Sinusitis (very common of pregnant women with fluctuating hormone levels)
Finally, I finish with this thought regarding the circuit of high histamine to cortisol to low testosterone/low progesterone to estrogen dominance and back to high histamine. This loop involves what I believe are two crucial body reactions… Vasodialation and Vasoconstriction. At times I am bloated, face is bright red, legs look even thinner, penis is constricted, lack of sexual pleasurable thoughts, pelvic pain, digestive problems which I believe are the reactions of the cortisol which is the vasoconstrictor. I then feel everything opens up a bit with the reaction of the high histamine which is ofcourse a vasodialtor. Thank you for listening and let me know some of your thoughts.
Hey mate,
Nicely written. I think all the attributes do sound familiar to alot of us guys. What about body weight and size? I myself have always been quiet lean and fit. I’m not sure if your theories correct or not, though it would be nice to see some results testing into the idea. My current thought is that DHT was over supressed that’s why I had such a quick and severe reaction from having low levels.
i like what was written here… suffered terrible allergies as a kid (but no longer)… and my sister was recently diagnosed with low progesterone. it is controversial around here but there is something ELSE that binds us all aside from simple propecia use… i wish we could have more conversation surrounding that.
I really think this should be looked into. But for the sake of what the medication does to DHT i think it’s important for those with there original DHT levels and levels after propecia should link them. As this would be the logical solution. Though I like how your thinking outside the square.
Your premise is wrong.
No offence but this is the worst piece of crap that I have ever read.
how so? I think this is a lot better than 90% of theories I’ve read on here!
to me it made sense.
ihatefin- incidently my mother struggled with very low progesterone her entire life. Actually when I have my really bad swings downward, aside from the sinus congestion, red face, bloating, bleeding gums etc… my nail beds/cuticles are red and inflammed…when she saw this she indicated to me that’s what tipped off her doctor.
Oscar and 2nd Amendment - thank you both for at least reading it.
propeciashiz - the supression of DHT is basically what I am theorizing. That by lowering it, it raises histamine, histamine then blocks progesterone receptors and that leads to diminished levels of progesterone at the receptor sites…then the vicious loop is completed.
I was also fit and lean, tall. Also not a very hairy guy at all…low testosterone prior to fin?
A few other thoughts that lead me in this direction. Histamine is also responsible for our sex drive. Again, literature indicates that men with higher histamine levels are more sexual, feel the need to satisfy the libido etc. before I crashed, I was out of control with my libido, it was raging. I theorize that my histamine levels were excessive elevated, before the crash
Also, we have a sister illness from SSRI usage with many mimicking and overlapping symptoms. There were studies reported that anti-histamines, 10 mg a day of Claritin administered over the course of 10 days, seemed to diminish the symptoms. I honestly don’t think it’s that easy of a fix for us, but I did have some slight benefits from using anti-histamines. If the cortisol is bound at the receptor sites then it might not do anything.
My hair loss was indeed as you describe it. I would be interested to have a PFS conference and see how many of us were truly going bald. Another trait that many of us seem to share is hypersexuality-though i don’t know how this ties in with your theory.
Tlecum- yes yes yes!! Hypersexuality is directly related to men with high histamine levels!! Men with such levels are typically known to be quite interested in sex and an urge to satisfy their libidos!
i chrashed…in june last year…january 2011…i was an animal…i needed to masturbate and have sex virtually everyday multiple times!
…
Maybe Im wrong. Can you quote one sentence in this ‘theory’ that is medically accurate and not a work of fantasy based on nothing?
Just adding my profile to add to consideration:
I was definitely hypersexual (but this is hard to quantify with anonymous posters vs. the general population).
I was definitely balding and, if anything, was in denial about the hair recession for a period until I finally saw the dermatologist and was declared to have male pattern baldness as runs in my family. And issued the poison we’ve all come to know and love, Mr. finasteride.
I have amongst the worst cases of impotence that I’ve read about on this forum. It’s dead down there. Here and there I’ve done regimens that give me a little bit of life, but I have no consistent, lasting, reliable, significant results, nor do I have libido or sensitivity.
I’m not shooting down your brainstorming, just reporting my case and facts.
definately hyper-sexual here
Xhorndog- thanks for your input. Now you said you were going bald. Are you completely bald? Do you have the typical large bald spot on the back of the head? Not frontal thinning, side recession, or diffused thinning.
It appears the hypersexual link is a common occurrence here. Very very indicative of high histamine. Now guys, and now is def not the time to be shy, had you dealt with, perhaps successfully, with premature ejaculation? This is also an indicator of high arousal/high histamine levels in the brain
Please provide scientific papers that support this claim.
I can definatley relate to what is said here. Especially the hyper -sexual part at the end while on fin and then again when I came off fin, but then I crashed.
I have always thought cortisol had a role in our syndrome.
How about using pregnelone cream, wouldn’t that help get the us back going again? I know much has been written on this site about prenelone cream which I have read.
It does seem like nearly every profile states they were in shape, healthy, type-a personality, and had a great to above average libido prior to crashing. I have not read a single story where the user said they were out of shape, fat, unhealthy, lazy, etc.
I had allergies all through childhood, but no longer do. This sounds a bit like an auto-immune type of an issue. Do you have any plans to test this theory with strong anti-histamines or anything?