My Theory - Recovery Rollercoaster

General Discussion
#1

Okay so I’m going to explain this in dummy form because i’m not a scientist nor a doctor. I’m only talking on what i’ve experienced coming off this drug. Any comments welcome (except if your going to cry about this being already discussed).

Dosage 2 x 1 mg Tablets.
Instant side effects.

Side effects - panic attacks, anxiety , depression , suicidal thoughts, decrease facial hair growth, numbness - rubbery - shrinkage (had recoveries), testicular pain, blackbags/wrinkles, increased hair loss (shedding), moonface, thin face, increased appetite, digestive issues, toilet issues no 1 + 2’s , ejeculatory issues, senstivity (varies), muscle twitching, eye floaters + weird vision(seeing things blue lights, green etc), brainfog, disconnection from personality, erectile dysfunction(had up and down recoveries), bags under eyes and wrinkles, Irritability, Mood Swings, Nausea, Back Pain, Shit waking up in the morning(low cortisol), Dry Lips, Waking up weird hours, Nightmares, No Morning nocturnal wood[u]

(my run down of side effects and cause)I know it’s easy to find a disease or cause for your symptoms. But it all makes sense from my blood tests and results.

Symptoms Low Cortisol
shaky hands; shakiness
diarrhea
bad palps
higher heart rate
pounding heart
feeling of panic
weakness
inability to handle stress
inability to handle interactions with others
inability to focus
rage or sudden angry outbursts
emotionally hyper sensitive
overreacting
highly defensive
feeling paranoid about people or things
exacerbated reactions to daily stress
no patience
easily irritated
mild to severe hypoglycemic episodes
nausea in the face of stress
taking days to recover from even minor stress
taking days to recover from a dental visit
flu-like symptoms
headache
all over body ache
super-sensitive skin
extreme fatigue
scalp ache
hyper feeling
jittery
clumsy (drop things, bump into things)
confusion
suddenly feel extremely hungry
low back pain
dull
cloud-filled head (happens when this patient is due for a next cortisol dose)
jumpiness
muscle weakness
“air hunger”
dizziness
light headedness
motion sickness
coffee putting patient to sleep
vomiting even running up the slightest incline
almost passing out every time patient gets up
dark circles under my eyes
waking up in the middle of the night for several hours
difficulty falling asleep
frequent urination
IBS symptoms
worsening allergies

Low Testosterone
Aging
ED
Low Libido
Depression
Decrease morning wood(also hormonal imbalance)
Performance etc etc etc.

High estrogen in men
Gynocamastia
ED
Low Libido
Decrease morning nocturnal wood
Acne etc etc.

Inflammation
General malaise, tiredness, slight fever
Poor appetite, nausea, changes in taste sensitivity
Pain or pressure beneath the right ribs typically caused by a liver that is enlarged
Aching joints and muscles, skin rash, headache
Yellowing of the skin, whites of the eyes and mucous membranes
Urine that is dark
Stools that are light-colored
Tiredness can last for weeks
Muscle Twitching
ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC

Theory in a nutshell - My Version of what happened to “ME” ( will get down to writing up scientific version)[/u]

What happends to men women when they go through “meno-andropause” Hormonal imbalance + Inflammation. That’s why they go on HRT.

I think the reason i got hit so hard is because i had low levels of DHT to begin with and higher concentrations in hair follicles or just sensitive to hairloss.
So. Expanding on this the intitial numbness was caused by lack of DHT. From the timeline have a crash, and temporary recovery. Followed by decreased androgen levels.

My understanding is cortisol drops (proven in my blood tests) cortisone is an anti-inflammtory(lots of people have low cortisol) - I noticed redness and irritation in these area’s, Testicles , Liver Pains, Red Scalp. 5 alpha reductase is present in all of these area’s. Body goes into inflammation as a protective state. Our bodies are also experiencing a hormonal imbalance. Low cortisol, High Estradiol, Low Testosterone ( cause’s alot of the sides we experience and listed)

My digestions fucked…Why? Well when our bodies go into a protective state the first thing that the body downgrades is Digestion…

We are assuming that we had underlying latent infections. But we were healthy so that did not matter. Then taking Finasteride caused a major stressor and imbalance in hormones and neurotransmitters. Low androgens and higher estrogens is breading ground for pathogens. Then in turn, with all the pathogens, our systems stay inflamed and fucked! None of us would have guessed this, but by treating systematic infection people are seeing improvements and many guys are also finding all these pathogens via blood and stool testing.

My Androgen receptors are fine. Or else I would not grow facial or body hair or have erectile function.

DHT Drop ----> Hormonal Imbalance —> Inflammation(screws up liver function(low androgens), balls(go like balloons), hair follices (itchy scalp) —> Worsening and more symptoms —> No recovery because body cannot recover in a sensitive state,pathogens attack body, we become weak, androgens don’t increase because senstivity due to inflammation.

How to fix this, I’m not a Doctor so don’t try this because i say it.

Cortisone (Bodies anti-inflammatory) + Nysatin + Paleo diet (anti-oxidants, anti-inflammtory foods) + Good Bacteria (maybe even anti-biotics) + Increase androgens as the final phase (Trib + Diet + Exercise) (Will consult with Doctor about my theory)

Comments and answers - What I expect to hear.

[Size=4]IM NOT SAYING THIS IS CORRECT…THIS IS JUST AN IDEA…LOTS OF PEOPLE HAVE HAD DIFFERENT RECOVERIES FROM DIFFERENT PROTOCOLS…IM GOING TO TRY THIS. YES “IF IT WAS THIS SIMPLE WE WOULD BE RECOVERED” HOW MANY OF YOU CAN HONESTLY SAY YOU HAVE TRIED ALL IN ONE. I AM ONLY WRITING WHAT IM EXPERIENCING. I HAVE HAD PATIAL RECOVERIES SO THE IDEA OF ANDROGEN RESISTANCE, EPIGENTIC CHANGES IS NOT AN OPTION FOR ME RIGHT NOW. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, DONT READ IT. ITS MORE ABOUT DISCUSSION. DO I HAVE A PHD OR A SCIENTIST? NO I DONT IM NOT A FUCKING DOCTOR. ITS MY BASIC UNDERSTANDING. WHY POST THIS WHEN WE HAVE ALREADY DISCUSSED THIS? GET THE FUCK OVER IT. WHY DID I WRITE THIS? I FOUND IT HARD TO BELIEVE THAT 2 TABLETS CAN CAUSE PERMANAT GENE EXPRESSION CHANGES ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC.[/size]

#2

Cortisol doesn’t drop in everyone lot of us running around with high cortisol. What else… Well several people have tried what your suggesting as a treatment with limited success long term. But by all means if you feel confident about it, try it.

#3

High cortisol has similar side effects such as depression and hormonal
Imbalance as Low cortisol.

#4

Well it’s just another way of checking things. Urine, Blood, Saliva measure active hormones you might find some answers. I know my blood cortisol was average, test was low, estrogen was average. Saliva was cortisol was extremely low, test low, and estrogen extremely high. I also had extremely low Aldosterone.

“Your adrenal glands, located just above your kidneys, are responsible for the “fight or flight” response during an emergency. This is caused by the hormone adrenaline, also called epinephrine. The adrenal cortex is the outer portion of your adrenal gland responsible for making two steroid hormones. Cortisol and aldosterone affect your blood pressure and response to stress. Sometimes the adrenal glands make insufficient levels of cortisol. Certain vitamins can have an impact on the symptoms of this condition.”

I think Cortisol plays a huge role! in this.

Fatigue
A lack of cortisol can make a person extremely tired and weak, according to the National Institutes of Health. Cortisol is produced as a response to the normal functioning of the pituitary glands. When the pituitary glands do not function properly, many of the body’s functions become abnormal. Fatigue is a common symptom of many of these disorders, including glucose management, immune system response and thyroid hormone production.

Gastrointestinal Effects
Addison’s disease is an adrenal gland disorder that may be indicated when a person’s cortisol levels are low. The adrenal glands produce hormones that regulate glucose, potassium and sodium levels within the body and help the body respond appropriately to stress. People with Addison’s disease do not produce enough hormones to oversee these functions. Gastrointestinal symptoms may be the marker of low cortisol in these cases, and include chronic diarrhea, vomiting, a loss of appetite and weight loss.

Low Blood Pressure
People who have low cortisol may also suffer from low blood pressure in response to the systemic lack of hormones. Low blood pressure can be a dangerous medical condition. People who have low blood pressure often feel lightheaded and dizzy and may injure themselves when suffering from falls relating to their health condition. Blood pressure levels more often than not revert to normal readings once cortisol is restored to the body.

Reproductive Effects
Low cortisol levels that are caused by hypopituitarism, the underproduction of hormones by the pituitary gland, can lead to a host of sexual dysfunction and reproductive problems. The NIH reports that some of the common symptoms of hypopituitarism are a lack of sex drive in men and women and amenorrhea (lack of periods) in women of childbearing age. Women who are nursing and show a drop in cortisol may see a decrease in milk production. Infertility can be the result of low cortisol if hormone levels are not supplemented with medication.

When i quit propecia my Cortisol was extremely over range!

Common Causes
Some of the most common causes of adrenal gland overload include: physical stress from illness or disease, emotional stress, chronic infections, underproduction of cortisol, general hormonal imbalance and a weak immune system. Stress in the body can cause inflammation and pain that makes the adrenaline glands work harder than usual, resulting in an increased demand for more cortisol. When this demand is not met, the result is adrenal overload.

[Size=4]Identification
Common symptoms of adrenal gland overload include difficulty sleeping, difficulty concentrating, poor memory, chronic fatigue, lack of energy in the morning, unexplained pain, especially in the upper back, decreased sex drive, depression, nausea, constipation and diarrhea, unexplained hair loss, food cravings, low blood pressure, low blood sugar and weight gain around the waist[/size]

In addition to reviewing basic symptoms of adrenal gland overload, a doctor can conduct several tests to determine any hormonal imbalances or nutritional deficiencies that may be the root of the problem. An Adrenal Function Test (AFT) measures the amount of DHEA and cortisol in the body; the DHEA-S measures levels of DHEA in the saliva; the ACTH test measures the concentration of adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) in the body, which can be an indicator of adrenal gland dysfunction; a basic cortisol test measures the amount of cortisol in the blood to determine if inflammation or a poorly functioning metabolism are to blame.

I’m getting muscle twitching recently. Could that be the affects of low aldotesterone, yes! low aldo = potassium intake is low.

low potassium = anxiety, depression, insomnia, constipation, high blood pressure, heart disease, kidney stones, hyperthyroidism, arthritis, obesity, headaches, pain in the eyes, muscle spasms, “restless leg syndrome,” fatigue, or muscle tension

WHAT IS ALDOSTERONE? Aldosterone is the principal of a group of mineralocorticoids. It helps regulate levels of sodium and potassium in your body–i.e. it helps you retain needed salt, which in turn helps control your blood pressure, the distribution of fluids in the body, and the balance of electrolytes in your blood. Aldosterone also helps remove excess potassium, keeping those levels balanced.

WHAT HAPPENS IF ALDOSTERONE GETS TOO HIGH OR LOW? When aldosterone gets too high, your blood pressure also gets too high and your potassium levels become too low. You can have muscle cramps, muscle weakness, and numbness or tingling in your extremities.

Again, I’m not here to prove i’m right. I’m just starting a discussion. I really think i’m onto something.

Why do I have low testoterone?

Androgens
The adrenal cortex secretes precursors to androgens such as testosterone.
In sexually-mature males, this source is so much lower than that of the testes that it is probably of little physiological significance. However, excessive production of adrenal androgens can cause premature puberty in young boys.

In females, the adrenal cortex is a major source of androgens. Their hypersecretion may produce a masculine pattern of body hair and cessation of menstruation.

[Size=4]Bottom line. Corticosteroids are required as anti-inflammatory. Probably why your having kidney or liver pains.[/size]

#5

[Size=4]DHT Drop ----> Hormonal Imbalance —> Inflammation on organs with 5ar2 (screws up liver function(low androgens),Prostate(some peoples blow up in size) balls(go like balloons), hair follices (itchy scalp) —> Worsening and more symptoms —> No Recovery —> Low Cortisol or Andrenal Cortex problem (I have low cortisol and aldotesterone) —> inflammation cannot be reduced —> Deficiency’s happen and low androgens because the adrenals play a roll in hormone production—> Worsening of symptoms due to loop. [/size]

#6

oh and lets not forgot [Size=4]3α-diol-G[/size] Increasing DHEA —> Increase 3α-diol-G… Where is DHEA produced? hmm adrenal glands and Gonads…If i’m not onto something it must be such a coincidence.

#7

After further research. How about this a recovery protocol?

Supplementation that can support adrenal repair:

:diamonds: Vitamin C and bioflavonoids – 1000 mg to 5000 mg daily, divided doses

:diamonds: B-5, pantothenic acid, or panethine gelcaps – 1000 – 1500 mg daily, divided

:diamonds: Vitamin E, mixed tocopherols – 400 iu’s daily, one gelcap

:diamonds: Magnesium – citrate good form, 500 mg or more daily, powdered form good

:diamonds: Natural progesterone cream – men can also benefit

Also may be beneficial:

:diamonds: B complex, 50 – 100 mg 2 x’s daily

:diamonds: Multi-vitamin/mineral – once daily

:diamonds: Antioxidants

:diamonds: DHEA – be careful with this, especially women, as only a little is needed to help

:diamonds: Natural hydrocortisone – caution here as well – prescription only

Additional suggestions:

Since most individuals with adrenal fatigue have compromised digestion, it is vital that they can digest food and supplement intake properly and have a good intestinal flora balance. You might want to include the following in your daily diet to assist in adrenal restoration:

:diamonds: Probiotics - 2 – 3 times per day
:diamonds: Digestive enzymes – with every meal
:diamonds: Eating raw fermented vegetables - daily

#8

bump

#9

Hey guys,

Not saying this is the underlying reason for PFS. I’ve been taking sodium bi-carbonate and had a major improvement in my stool and urination.

Low Sodium

Hyponatremia
This term is used to define blood sodium levels lower than 135 mEq/L. With hyponatremia, as explained by Dr. Cho, Assistant Clinical Professor of Medicine at the University of California, you will not have any symptoms with levels at 130 mEq/L. Even at 110 mEq/L, you will not have symptoms if your levels drop slowly over a period of weeks to months, because your brain will have time to adjust. Levels that drop rapidly will make you nauseous. And then, you will have headaches and become disoriented. If this is not corrected, you can have seizures and go into respiratory arrest and a coma.

Hyperkalemia
Potassium levels higher than 5 mEq/L is referred to as hyperkalemia. You may not have any symptoms, but if your levels reach higher than 6.5 mEq/L, then the signals that go from your nerves to your muscles will be impaired. This will give you paralysis, make your muscles weak and lessen your reflexes. Because nerves also stimulate your heart muscle, you can also have cardiac changes.

Hypokalemia
Potassium levels lower than 3.5 mEq/L is defined as hypokalemia. Once again, your muscles are affected. You will have cramps, muscle weakness and even constipation. If your levels drop below 2.5 mEq/L, you can have poor reflexes and paralysis.

Hypercalcemia
If your blood’s calcium levels are higher than 10.2 mg/dL, this is considered to be hypercalcemia. Medical students across the country have memorized the phrase “bones, stones, abdominal groans, psych overtones,” for these are the symptoms of hypercalcemia–bone fractures, kidney stones, the “abdominal groans” of vomiting and constipation. “Psych overtones” leave you feeling tired and weak, with a change in your mental alertness.

Hypocalcemia
Calcium levels lower than 8.5 mg/dL are considered as hypocalcemia. Dr. Cho writes that hypocalcemia makes the muscle cells and the nerve cells more excitable. Thus, the symptoms include muscle spasms, which cause cramps. You can also have abdominal pain and convulsions. You will have a facial spasm if your physician taps your facial nerve. This is called the Chvostek’s sign.

Electrolytes are electrically charged molecules that serve various functions in the body. Some common electrolytes, such as potassium, sodium and calcium, play important roles in nerve conduction, muscle contraction and heart rhythm. Electrolyte levels are also important in maintenance of the body’s fluid balance. Several conditions can cause electrolyte imbalances.

Kidney Disease
The kidneys are the organs most involved in the maintenance of proper fluid and electrolyte balance. According to “The Merck Manual of Medical Information,” the kidneys filter electrolytes from the blood, excreting excess levels of these molecules and reabsorbing others that are needed. The kidneys also excrete any excess fluid. Kidney damage, which can be caused by infection, inflammation or trauma, prevents these organs from maintaining the proper electrolyte concentration in the blood. This can cause serious medical problems, with either too high or too low electrolyte levels.

Dehydration
Dehydration can affect electrolyte levels. Sodium level, in particular, can be adversely affected. Gastroenteritis, or the stomach flu, can lead to dehydration and hyponatremia, or low sodium levels in the blood, when the body loses too much of this electrolyte during illness. Decreased intake of fluids can lead to dehydration and high sodium levels, as the concentration of this electrolyte increases in the absence of water. Dehydration due to heat exposure and high temperatures can decrease the levels of electrolytes, which are lost through sweat.

Adrenal Problems
The adrenals, a pair of triangle-shaped glands located atop each kidney, secrete hormones involved in the body’s stress response, sexual development and fluid balance. The main adrenal hormone involved in electrolyte balance is aldosterone. According to Lab Tests Online, aldosterone stimulates the kidneys to retain sodium and excrete potassium. High levels of aldosterone can result in elevated levels of sodium and increased loss of potassium in the urine. Conditions like Addison’s disease, which causes underproduction of aldosterone, can result in low sodium and high potassium levels.

Medicines
Certain medicines can affect electrolyte levels. Diuretics, used to control high blood pressure, work by increasing the excretion of sodium and water in the urine. According to MayoClinic.com, some diuretics can also decrease the level of potassium in the bloodstream. This can cause constipation, muscle cramps, weakness and abnormal heart rhythms, or arrhythmias. Other medicines, such as cough medicines, oral contraceptives and steroids, can affect sodium levels. Taking large amounts of certain antacids can affect chloride levels.

#10

Propeciashiz, rather than invest time and energy into theorizing online, many of which are impossible to test without lab settings or qualified scientists to do such tests, it would probably be far more productive to GENERATE MEDIA AWARENESS about the cause, to get such medical professionals and scientists interested enough to research our problem in more detail.

You have the ability to do something via TV media – not many of us do. You should make an effort to get this done as much as possible: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=6850

#11

^ I 2nd that.

#12

Hey Mew,

Yes I Understand. I do have the ability but with out anyone participating in Australia I don’t have much of a story.

Current Standing

  • Dr Irwig
    -My Endo unversity study (dont have any results yet)
    -Pecker /possibly kevin
  • I’d love to hear from Awor and the doctors/scientists doing the studies
  • Australian Sufferers.

Or else I don’t have a story.

#13

Yes, Propeciashiz has a point. I explained to him that what actually harmed me was a very small amount of beta-carotene. It is beyond outrageous that this happened to me. I did take two full courses of Isotretinoin which were uneventful. I said to some in PM that I took low dose Isotretinoin - not the case (didn’t feel it was palatable), and I apologize.

#14

Honestly can’t believe the accutane people don’t have their own forum thing going on… Or do you guys??? Seems like with all that happened with accutane and it already being removed from the market… There would be a lot more going on there.

#15

Propeciashiz, you state you are a victim of this drug. Can you not feature yourself as a victim in your own story? Have you contacted the other Australian sufferers?

#16

Yeah I have Mew. I have all the resources just no tools to work it. Accutane, Saw Palmetto sufferers could work in the story. But my plan is 2-3 sufferers --> research interview with scientist studies on PFS -->Merck interview.

#17

(you don’t have to read this I just like sharing my experiences) okay so a little thought, low aldosterone = acidic ph levels care2.com/greenliving/are-you-too-acidic-symptoms.html I’ve alkalized my blood levels with sodium bicarbonate and my muscle spasms stopped, ulcers disappeared, lips r not dry, not floaters coincidence maybe…( no this is not a Pfs theory)

#18

I was explaining why it would be ridiculous for me to appear in a story mainly targeting the pharmaceutical industry, but thank-you for the insightful comments nevertheless.

#19

Regardless you trusted a product and you got Side effects.

#20

Yes friend; and more importantly, most of the segregation specialists on this board would still be on this board notwithstanding Merck. People were willing to take a serious pharmaceutical for hair loss, so would have objected to a herb seemingly more innocuous?