My temporary recovery via clomid...

Therapeutic Efforts Pharmaceutical
#1

Took propecia for a week back in early october but quit because of sagging libido and it seemed to be making me break out. Upon quitting, I was struck with all of the symptoms described on the site(brain fog, ed, anxiety etc.) Got my blood tested a month after my last pill and the T level was 331(range 247-850). That is crazy low for someone my age(21 years old) After much research, I ordered clomid off the internet and took it for 10 days, starting at 100 mgs a day for the first few days then going down to 50 mg for the remainder. The effects of the raised T on libido dont take effect until treatment is complete because clomid inhibits libido while you are on it, but after quitting, the effects were night and day. I got my lab results back today, which i got drawn on my last day on clomid, and my total testosterone was in the high 700s. my lh was out of range on the high end(due to being on clomid at the time, it had been at the very bottom of the range before clomid)…

the only thing i am worried about is if the rise in T from the clomid will be sustained or if i will drift back into hell…ill keep you posted but i urge you guys to try this method as well, as it beats the hell out of what you all are going through…

I’m also scheduled to see shippen next month, and am keeping the appointment to ensure that i wont have a relapse and to maybe fine tune it a bit to get me from 90% of my old self to 100%

#2

glad to hear you’re recovreing and all. yea i hear ya on the T issues as my free T has usually been anywhere in the high 300s-500 on my tests which I feel too is very low than what it should be for a 22 yearold and who has been athlete all of his life etc. My main question for you is did you have any physical weight gain issues in the hips, chest, etc and have they started to clear up via the clomid treatment.

#3

Yeah I gained some weight in the chest but that seems to have gone away. Like you, I have been involved in sports all through life, was always in great shape, and this whole thing was devastating. I just hope it is completely behind me…

#4

yea thats good to hear. yea i’ve gained weight in the chest and hip area and lost a ton of muscle my whole body type has changed. i just hope i can get my body and face back too.

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#5

yeah the softening of facial features happened to me too. no more acne or blemishes either, whereas I would always break out a little bit if i didn’t wash my face before propecia. As the testosterone returns, your skin and facial appearance seem to return…

does anyone know if I am likely to maintain the level of testosterone reached from the clomid, or am I going to slip back to where I was now that I stopped taking it?

#6

Try Clomid stimulation. I am going to. Just pay attention to your eyes.
Start at a low dose. ScaredToDeath, I cant believe you started with 100mg. I have heard it best to start with 25 to be cautious, or 50 at most.
Good luck. I cant wait to take it. How long did you take it for?

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#7

Thanks for sharing your update with us. If you don’t mind, what were the symptoms you had before trying the clomid and how have they changed since?

Please keep us posted as to your progress, further bloodwork and visit with Dr. Shippen.

#8

yea im also interested to know if you had any sleep and fatigue issues as well.

#9

ScaredtoDeath, how was your appointment with Shippen?

Have you had recent bloodwork?

Is your T still in the 700s after discontinuing the clomid or has it dropped down again? How are you feeling lately?

Curious to know how you are doing.

#10

I once over a year back used a pct with toremifene to see if i could get my nipps too normalize, my nuts grew 2 times the size i ever had, also strong libido this seemed to fade away after a few months.
This is why i,am not going for this protocol, i think fina messed up my pituary or i,ve had a fucked up pituary al along.

#11

no my T levels drifted backdown after quitting the clomid and were actually lower than they had been originally at my last blood test(taken a month after the one with the 700 score)

been too depressed to be reading this board…only check in to see if anyone has had any luck with any supplements

#12

can please someone translate for me what scareddeath means with this last post?..
what i want to understand is : does scared have had a fall down of T after clomid or he still has high T after clomid?..
just to understand if clomid could work.
thanks

#13

scared’s T dropped again after Clomid. That could be for a few reasons. Many people like myself are stuck in a state of low T and raised E2. The problem is I don’t know if this state was brought about by:

A) a build up of T while on Fin (due to Fin stopping T to DHT conversion). This excess T gives a short surge in libido before it gets converted to E2. High E2 then suppresses T.
This senario is just like a bodybuilder who takes T without doing an anti-E2 PCT protocol after the T. Scared took a classic PCT medication to drop his E2 and hopefully hit his T:E2 ‘sweetspot’ of his natural pre-fin self.
OR

B) T could’ve just dropped making E2 the dominant hormone (which I believe further supresses T)

A problem here is that fin shrinks prostates, and prostates ‘feed on T’. Boston hit on something when he talks about ‘‘pumping up the prostate’’ with T. The problem is taking T is sort of the opposite of taking an anti-E2 because much of T becomes E2. It’s catch 22. To get round this, theoretically that is, one answer might be to pump up the prostate with T while running an anti-E2 along side it. Or, use T, then do quite an agressive anti-E2 cycle.

What a bloody mess though eh??

#14

thanks jUK!
i want to try it before going on ghb…
i’ll buy clomid from internet,does anyone know a good site to buy it and could anyone tell me what to try like anti E2.
thanks!

#15

Seems like a VERY good idea Jay!! I want to do such a thing!

#16

Italy…wait up a minute…I just want you to know I’m not a doctor and am certainly not personally recommending you take any of these approaches myself. But look here, you may want to read this:

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=356

Also, Clomid IS AN ANTI-ESTROGEN (but only a weak one).
muscletalk.co.uk/clomid-hcg.aspx

As I understand it, weaker anti-estrogens are used first, because if the E2 reduction is slow it is theoretically easier to establish/identify a person correct ratio. (Similar to ‘titration’ - In medicine, titration is the process of gradually adjusting the dose of a medication until the desired effect is achieved).

Note: I believe Dr Chrisler now prefers to start on Nolvadex than Clomid though.
Also, what about the fact the scared’s T dropped again afterwards?? Why did this happen?? The only reasons I can think of are:

A) Not taken for long enough.
B) Overactive aromatase.
C) He got initial improvements because he got somewhere close to his pre-fin T:E2 proportionality, but his T didnt actually rise in the process. (i.e. good ratio but with lower/unsustainable quantites of T & E2).
D) The competing/binding properties of clomid at receptor sites was/is not as good as the other anti-E2 alternatives eg: Nolva.
E) Precursers to T,aromatase, E2 etc. are not being taken into account.
F)The use of HCG may have had a positive influence.

I’m trying to get Xyrem first. I like the idea of the body being put into a state where it can possibly rectify/reset/default ‘itself’.

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#17

I’ve tried Nolvadex/Tamoxifen about a year ago for about a month.
-During that month, my body as well as beard hair grew very fast and got extremly thick. I took about 6 months for that hair growth to disappear. It should also be metioned, that I was using minoxidil 5% (regaine) and that since I’ve stoped taking finasteride (propecia) the minoxidil induced body-hair-growth (hypertricosis) became quite a problem and was definitely responsible for some of the hair growth. I can’t say how much of the hypertricosis was caused by the Nolvadex since I’ve been having simular symptoms on minoxidil 2%, but I’d say some of it definitely was caused by the Nolvadex.
-I also lost some of the hard tissue (not the fat) in my breasts (had as slight case of gynocomastia), which was the only reason I started using it. It should also be said that after stoping, some of the hard tissue returned (due to the extreme estrogen E2 level in my body, which was no longer being held in check by the Nolvadex/Tamoxifen, which is what a estrogen-blocker does along with the unwanted side-effects).
-I also experienced a few psychological disturbances (felling strange and a bit fearfull) during that month.

As to the long-term effects, after a short period of time, I started to have the same low T problems as almost all of you have and I can’t be sure if using the Nolvadex didn’t worsen the problem in the long run.

Once you stop using the Nolvadex (it’s not a drug one should use continuously), then the same old problems will show up again, at least thats how it was in my case.

I’ll post my whole story someday, but for now:

-Zinc Gluconate (you can use other Zinc types like chelated Zinc, but make sure it in a form which the body can use efficiantly) 20 - 30 mg a day made the symptoms I’ve had, due to rather low T (4,2 - 4,6) become less prominent.

-I’ve stopped the other Zinc because I’ve started ZMA. Its a Zinc, Magnisium a vitamin B6 mixture. The advised daily dose is 3 capsules, but I have found that 1 - 2 seem suficiant for my body. One could probably mix the ingedients at home and save some money, but I haven’t tried that yet. I’ve had the best reaction so far and and haven’t been having any of the problems I used to have (sporadic aching in the testicals, as if they were not being stimuated enough and some leydig cells were dying (a theorie of mine), feeling tired and have puffed up nipples as well as my dick being shrunk during non-erect phases due to a low T/E2 ratio or something simular. There is a downside though. Some say they sleep very well after taking ZMA. I’m not quite sure why, but if I take too much before bed, I often find it hard to fall asleep and when I do, my dreams are rather intense.

I am, by the way, not a native english speaker so bare with my spelling errors.
Hope this can help someone

:slight_smile:

#18

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#19

Last i heard saliva tests are not accurate for sex hormones. Good for cortisol tho.

Why that is, i have no idea.

Werent u saying u had really high T and DHT, and you and your doctor were sure this was not hormonal or am i confusing you with some1else?

#20

ScaredtoDeath7,

i think your PCT was ok but could be improved. You took clomid for 10 days and saw a rise in T which is good because it shows that you boys are still working. It sounds like you started your clomid program 1 month after quiting FIN, so there must of been inhibited 5AR left in your system. Even tho the drug leaves your blood stream, but the remaining inhibited 5AR will take a while for it to replenish itself.

Anyhow, clomid desensitizes the pituitary to GnRH and nolvadex would been a better choice in this respect. I think your balls are working, so u don’t need HCG to revive your balls, but it wouldn’t hurt to use very little to revive the leydig cells.

People on steroid forums seem to respond to Nolvadex 20mg for 6-16 weeks with a taper off phase. They mentioned that they are able to sustain the above mid range T after stopping nolvadex.

Just let us know how you are doing and don’t just drop off. Thanks man. oneday