My temporary recovery via clomid...

Therapeutic Efforts Pharmaceutical
#21

Hello,

I have yet to post my own member story but in short form have had anorgasmia, low libido, and adrenal fatigue since quiting fin several years ago (was on propecia for several months). I also have secondary hypogonadism in which fin may have played (may continue to be playing) a role.

After exhausting local docs, I visited one of the docs on the forum list here, and he had started me on clomiphene citrate 25 mg every other day. Here are some items he mentioned:

1.) He prefers clomiphene citrate (Clomid) over tamoxifin because for the former , for secondary hypogonadism sufferers there have been extensive, peer reviewed studies of the drug by the Lahey Clinic in Boston. Here is a link to one of their papers:
nature.com/ijir/journal/v15/ … 00981a.pdf

While tamoxifen and clomid are both used to treat infertility in women, tamoxifen has not had the detailed studies that clomid had had for males thus his preference. (my impression is it helps ward off any malpractice issues).

2.) Dosage is important. Too much is no good, it will block hypothalmic receptors associated with libido/sexual stimulation response. He told me this has been seen at doses as low as 50/mg per day in males. He said T will still go up, but libido will actually drop.

My first serum test two weeks after starting this regimen showed LH and T had doubled.

I am also ramping up Vitamin D3 on his recommendation (I had been taking 500 iu EOD) . The target levels I have been asked to go to are a little controversial so I will not post them here.

I hope this info is of help to the community - kazman

#22

BTW, I am pretty sure Nolvadex = tamoxifen

#23

how long will u stay on this treatment? what about improvements? do u feel some thing good?

#24

Italy,

I will be on this 25 mg EOD for the next 7 weeks, with blood testing for total T and estrodial after week 3 and week 6. Not sure about total length of time, but the treating doctor noted that Lahey Clinic’s trials have gone on as long as 6 months with no observed ill effects.

Keeping my fingers crossed - kazman

#25

kazman, I am very curious about the D3 amounts he reccommended. Could you change your mind or else pm me? I have seen 20,000 IU sometimes prescribed per day. I take 8000/day. Doesn’t have the same effect on me as sunlight, though. Days in the sun always make me feel way better.

#26

Qunit,

I think the concern is hypercalcimia, where the D3 at high levels (> 5,0000 iu/day) act to catalyze the removal of calcium from your bones, and into your bloodstream.

I am currently up to 2000 iu/day via liquid drops, supposed to increase to 5,000 iu/day, which seems like allot. My 20(OH) levels have been in the 15 to 25 range (target is 50 to 60) prior to any supplmentation other than trying to get some sun when avilable.

kazman.

#27

Kazman, who are you seeing? And what is the ultimate plan for the Clomid? Does he talk about personal success with his patients regarding the use of Clomid?

Anyway, so he must believe in the Propecia story then…

Thanx

#28

Hi Kazman

Thanks for this report.

You mention that so far on Clomid you’ve seen T double: has this brought any improvement in symptoms? Are you feeling any better on the Clomid?

Best wishes.

#29

The first time I took it I took 25 mg every evening for 10 days in a row by breaking 50 mg tablets from a major pharmacy in half. I was tested (morning after the tenth dose) for total T, which doubled from historical levels to the mid 500s, and my LH went from 0.7-1.3 to 2.9. My FSH did not budge at 2.5. After the fifth or sixth day I had complete restorration of function (flet like I was 16 again, much to my wife’s delight) but little improvement in the anorgasmia department.

A couple of months later I started this enw approach, as noted above the doctor felt that taking it very day was contraindicated due to suppression of hypothalmic receptors needed for sexual response. I had total T and estrodial tested right before I started this new round, and I get tested in another week or so (end of week 3). So far the response in some areas (clarity of thinking, appearance) have been noticeable, but not so much in the sex department (have noted some testicular volume increase). From reading the various studies I know I need to give it more time - I’ll have another T & estrodial test after week 5 or 6.

I did have a breief bout of a floater or something in one eye, happened after I opened a curtain and got a blast of direct sunlight. Don’t do this if you’re on clomid . . . went away after one week.

Will keep you posed - kazman

#30

Promised an update so here it is. Three weeks on clomiphene citrate every other day, 25 mg and I got blood drawn the morning after a just before bedtime dose (e.g. peak value).

Before, my T was consistently in the low 300s after fin, with the exception of the year I tried topical T.

Three weeks into an initial 6 week trial, and I’m up to 570. Morning wood is back somewhat, and have some function now. Progesterone was holding steady at 0.8 ng/mL, is this high by anyone’s standards?

Been getting the sweats in the 1 to 3 AM time period, consitantly worse whenver I jumped the vitamin D3 dose up to 2000 iu’s. I thought it was the vitamin D3 being too high so I got that checked at the same time as T - it was only 15 (target 50) and even considered deficient by the blood lab.

I am going to try increasing D very slowly. Maybe when I get a big dose of it my body responds by making lots of hormones and this is causing the sweats . . . .

kazman

#31

Quick update, total T taken 8 hours after clomiphene citrate 25 mg dose is 730! This should be a peak, not a trough, value. Quite a change from the 250-300 I had tested at several times after stopping topical testosterone.

Estrodial results not back yet I have a suspicion that its crept up.

Was feeling pretty good until a couple of weeks back when some insomnia set in. Shifting the citrate dose to first thing in the morning seems to help this, I was taking it before bed so keep a more natural biorhythm but no more.

More later - kazman

#32

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#33

-snip-

I was diagnosed and treated for adrenal fatigue about 2 years ago in combination with topical TRT (search my user name I’ve posted about it in detail). Had a brief (` 1 month) subsistence of all symptoms, but did not raise my long term abnormal low LH and bottom of the range FSH, despite that dr.'s theory that resting the adrenals would also help the pituitary generally. In that dr.'s defense neither he nor I realized during that time that the propecia was the turning point for my symptoms (8 months on, 6 years ago).

Prolactin right before I started this long low dose clomid treatment was 4.6 ng/ml, have not had issues with high prolactin. My ACTH right before clomid treatment was around 9 (scale 6-46, some feel the scale should be 40-60 based on well people). AM Cortisol has been elevated (27) and normal (15) in the two tests I had in the prior two months before to starting this latest treatment.

Two ultrasensitive estrodial tests have come back at <2 pg/mL, one before long term clomid one after, current doc doesn’t believe the number (normal range < 29)

Physical stamina is much improved, and libido is up noticeably (suppose anything would be an improvement over zero though). I get LH/FSH and several other tests in a few weeks, trying to decide whether to spring for 24 hour urine panel.

#34

:question: which doc is treating you?

#35

Overdue for an update.

I have had T readings every four weeks or so, these are intended to be peak readings not “trough” readings such that I get blood drawn 8 to 10 hours after a 25 mg slow release clomiphene citrate capsule, which I’ve been taking monday-wednesday-friday.

After the 730 test. reading I had a 510 (too low), then back up to 710 ng/mL. Estrodial has crept up from a couple/few < 2 readings to 8 then 12.

Just checked LH/FSH/SHBG, the 710 T reading corresponded to an LH of 2.5, still higher than most post fin readings, and a depressingly low FSH of 2.2 (lowest reading I’ve had in the last few years). Doc muttered something about post fin patients showing this low FSH. I wanted to ask about hMG but ran out of time.

SHBG has actually dropped from 39 before treatment to 30 now, which reduces my free T requirement.

The morning after a clomiphene I took a all day urine hormone test, test showed excessive high androstenediol and below normal range T. Doc said T in this case is free T. Will post some discussion on this separately when I get a chance, might be a common denominator for us.

Based on all this I am adding a dose on Thursdays. If that helps doc may up my next order of clomiphene to 35 mg M-W-F.

How do I currently feel? About 50% of the way there in terms of increased function/increased peak sensation and all that., 12 weeks into this low dose therapy. Nice to sort of notice the ladies after what seems like a long time.
:slight_smile:

#36

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#37

solnjk, this quote is from Thisucks hromone thread:

Solonjk interesting summary on sufferer’s commonalities, I certainly fall into the abnormally low LH/very low FSH category… I found this thread by searching on “ACTH”, because I just got a blood test back (taken the day before I started clomid/clomiphene citrate) which showed my ACTH to be about 10 (scale 6 to 46, I understand though that the range used to be 10 to 60 recently, but of course the blood labs are only testing sick people . . . and using that data to select ranges), and am trying to find its significance. AM cortisol can sometimes be above range, and sometimes be in the middle of the range. Unfortunatly I took the last cortisol reading on a different day than the ACTH (which was not a challenge test).

Thoughts? Has hypo-is-here been around? kazman

#38

I hope my doctor will suggest me something like that, if my blood test shows low testosterone.

#39

Another update. For some time on this therapy my FSH had not budged, stil in the 2 to 2.5ish range that it had been for some time.

Saw the doc and he had me run a three week long experiment - instead of 75 mg /week of clomiphene citrate I upped the dose to 100 mg in four divided doses per week. This seemed to make a difference in energy level, libido, performance etc (ok especially the latter two)…

After three weeks I got my blood checked and total T had reached 900 . . . and FSH got to 4 !. SHBG has crept up a bit, was in the 30’s historicaly, now the low 40’s, does anyone think this is too high?

#40

Wow, that’s great news Kazman. So those levels look promising, no??

Are you in Boston btw?
Who are you seeing? What doctor?

Do you have any ED still?

I have a regular girlfriend now, and CAN fuck every night, but its definitely still slower to rise. I have to play around a little first before it gets up there, and still not always 100% hard.
I must say, and I was going to make a post about this sometime when I get a chance, but Yohimbe really works. I almost take it like viagra now. Just don’t take too much because it can give you headaches, but boy does it really work. I still need to try it a few more times to see if it works consistently “on demand”, but so far,after 4 times already, and I have only taken it occasionally, it works considerably well everytime. I only take one though now, because when I took two, I couldn’t sleep very well, and was waking up all night with a huge rock hard erection all night. Thought I had priapism! :smiley: Lol… serious, no joke

Anyway,
I satisfy her like there’s no tomorrow though :smiley: and give her multiple orgasms every nite, so she doesn’t care it takes a while to rise!! ;D
I do though. It still just doesn’t pop right up when I lie down to bed her! I still don’t like having ED.
I miss also being on the dancefloor in a club, a girl rubbin up on you, and your dick gets hard and pokin her, she feels it up against her body gettin her real excited :smiley:
I miss that shit. The power of the dick!

Thanks for the update Kazman. Keep us posted!

~boston