Really sorry again, but this is a not a recovery, and I think it should be moved to the members section
Donât be sorry. I see where youâre coming from. Mew if youâre reading move this to members stories. Thanks
âRecoveryâ post has been merged into 19âs main story, to reflect his current state.
Mew, have you ever had 5α-reductase checked? I know this is your favourite theory. As far as I can tell noone has yet had 5α-reductase type II checked. Prehaps you should look into that to finally determine if this is the problemâŠ!
Let me ask a question⊠If there is no 5ar2 activity in the muscles why would a deficiency cause muscle loss?
Would the muscle loss be caused soley by the âcrashâ after stopping and a subsequent drop in T, HGH and god knows what else⊠or prehaps there is an unknown mechanism by which a destruction of 5ar2 in otherwise normally developed men causes muscle atrophy? (prehaps a destruction of 5ar2 in only one part of the brain?) I know your not an MD but you have more experience of this issue than most.
As this is your favourite theory, have you considered attempting the Anonymous Doctorâs DHT treatment to increase 5AR2 expression? http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2262 How long are you willing to wait? 
Iâve been thinking of the whole issue. Everyone on this forum has a slightly different problem. What we know is propecia the type 2 5 alpha reductase inhibitor is the cause. We are in the minority of men who suffer from these persistent side effects so we must have some reason for why it affected us. Some of us it affected after a long period of use whilst others like myself it affected pretty immediately. Some still lose their hair whilst others donât. I think this is very important as the ones who do must have some DHT activity whilst the ones that donât wonât. Thyroid issues cause more diffuse loss.
Now all the recoveries that were not spontaneous happened when people messed with hormones or neurotransmitters:
- Ithappens - Xyrem
- ScaredinMd - Hdrol and reboot
- Mitch - thyroid and adrenal support
- Cytochrome (first time) - dexamethasone, stacker T, creatinine monohydrate
- Hopingformore - high dose tribulus
- Dury(nearly recovery) - Clomid and synthyroid. Maybe klonipine, oxycodone
- Canât remember who - tyrosine and phenylalanine
Some people like JN responded also to testosterone and thyroid meds. I noticed in myself stronger erections with T3 but felt unwell with it. Also when i took stacker T erections and libido were high for the period i took it (2 weeks). Brainfog however and general wellbeing did not improve. I got acne, good quality erections but i did not feel right. Some people i think just need that boost, that kickstart.
So 5 alpha reductase type 2 is located in the prostate, brain, genital, liver, hair follicle. Where are my issues located - brain, genitals and prostate for sure. This is glaringly obvious. Now my total testosterone is normal and although not tested i imagine my free testosterone is too. In fact all my tests have been very normal except a twice the range DHT at the beginning. I need to get this tested again. With Adiol-3G.
The current theories of why this is happening include:
- Induced androgen insensitivity and abnormal gene expression
- 5 alpha 2 receptor deficiency
- Hypothalamic/Pituitary dysfunction
- Concurrent issues such as liver problems (as 5 alpha type 2 is in the liver)
- Neurosteroid and neurotransmitter problems - whether dopamine or allopregnanolone
Symptoms correlate in most of us with androgen deficiency. In me they included:
- loss of spontaneous and MORNING erections.
- decreased libido
- decrease in ejaculation vol
- decreased sensation
- fatigue (really bad)
- proximal muscle weakness
- poor quality sleep
- loss of energy and zest for things
-brain fog - irritability
- visual issues
- deep headaches
- prostatic discomfort
- just to note - i havenât experienced muscle wasting although some have.
Strangely enough for me doxy improved the sexual problems by about 30 percentâŠincrease in size and semen volâŠbut i have to stay on it to maintain it. It also helped the sleep. Why? Maybe because of its anti inflammatory effects or its ability to modulate amino acid neurotransmitters.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16919849
For me the things that worsen things:
- Poor diet
- Stress
- Lack of sleep
- Alcohol
- Stressful video games
- Zinc - high dose
- Spironalactone (topical) - made things worse similar to finasteride
Now is the problem to do with the action of testosterone or DHT with the androgen receptor whether it be by a lack of receptors or a lack of hormone? Or is it more of top down issue with the brain as the primary problem leading to a pituitary issue and knock on effect? Its not clear.
Now I believe that although our bodies may not naturally reverse this condition this condition is not irreversible! People who had the same symptoms as me naturally (like the drug companies poster boy) got better. Sure they were the lucky ones as they did not persist. But Oscar made a post saying there was permanent brain damage and i disagree fully with this. Why? The way i would describe it would be the problem with us is like a room full of light bulbs. When we are well all the light bulbs are on when we got fucked by propecia some of them went off. When you have a stroke and cause permanent damage those light bulbs shatter for good. Our problems are not like that. The light bulbs are still there. We need to learn how to turn them back on. The problem is learning which switch it is. Coz there are a lot of light bulbs and a lot of switches and we donât want to turn the wrong ones off.
My plan:
-
Phone consult with Dr Jacobs
-
See andrologist here
-
Try Clomid - I feel TRT is not for me
-
Maybe give ball zinger a go
-
Bloods - DHT, Adiol 3g, Free Testosterone, check thyroid ok now after messing
-
Continue Vitamins, healthy diet, trying to get on with life, weight lifting (which does help a little) - can gain muscle
-
Consider supplements looking at neurosteroids and neurotransmitters
-
Consider opiods
-
consider modafanil to help me get through the days.
19
Another observation:
I had a episode of gastroenteritis with diarrhoea and fever last week. I also had a headache. One thing i noticed was my vision was 80% better when i felt like shit. Strange! But it does give me hope of the reversibility of the visual symptoms. Everything looked more real.
Otherwise waiting to get blood tests done then will try clomid trial. Go from there. Iâm keeping a close eye on awors progress as I think and hope heâs onto something. Still on doxy which helps a little.
Has anyone taken pregnenolone? Thinking of trying it.
Yea awor is a little demented⊠donât buy into that crap at allâŠ
I donât think he is demented. Epigenetics could play a huge part in our problem and altered gene expression does make sense. It is certainly an avenue worth exploring. Dr Jacobs is also interested in the epigenetic element.
I plan to ask the next doctor I see specifically for this drug.
I did think that brain damage was the reason this all happened - along with damage to 5ar2 tissue in the body. I now find it difficult to reason that either of those problems may now be occuring for three reasons. 1) Everyone that has been tested has low Vitamin D, and there is a direct relation between Androgen Receptors and Vitamin D Receptors. I do not see how a lack of 5ar2 can cause a lack of Vitamin D. 2) I am experiencing severe muscle loss, so are others. 5ar2 is not involved in muscle. 3) I had no brain fog whilst using finasteride, how on earth can that symptom manifest after stopping?
Of course I might be wrong, it may even be a combination of the theories you listed, but at the moment I fully subscribe to aworâs epigenetic change/insensitivity theory. It explains all the symptoms as well as how the problem arises.
19, can you describe your visual problems? I have what I can only describe as static in front of my eyes that makes seeing fine detail very difficult, do you have something similar?
Yeah it definitely is a more convincing theory if not a little more scary. I.V. procaine is a risky bizz. Still perplexed as to why doxy helps me a bit.
Vision problem is an increased sensitivity to light and when iâm tired its gets really bad. Hurts driving at night. Also floaters, glaring and halos around lights. The extent of which does vary depending on how tired i am. When i had a fever last week i noticed everything seemed more real if that makes sense and vision became a joy again. I still had some halo issues but not as much. The problem is in the brain for sure as my eyes have been checked and my brain did react more than usual to light on a visual evoked potential. People who are hypogonadal can complain of vision issues as well as neurotransmitter issues i think.
I was reading raysahelians site on pregenenolone and he said this about it:
âA good number of individuals who have taken pregnenolone report enhancement of visual perception. Colors are brighter and clearer. Patterns are more noticeable. Looking becomes more enjoyable. However, not everyone seems to be attuned to this perceptual enhancement.â
That sounded similar to the effect i was having so was thinking of it.
I got a test back today for intestinal inflamation read 452 (0-50). Everytime ive had a test for inflamation (esr, c-reactive protein) they have been elevated.
Most of the time feels like my brain is to big for my sckull.
So i would guess is due to its anti inflam effects.
Tried peg by itself for a week and made me feel progressively worse as each day went by at 5mg/day. And I tried it again at 1mg a day and the same. It sucked major balls.
Brain fog, blurry vision, shrunken penis, cold hands and feet. Those grand ole symptoms we all know and love. Dhea did the same thing to me.
I will say that for 1 or 2 hours when I first took them I felt real good, then the symptoms started. But it could be that I might be the exception and it could possibly help others.
Did you get spontaneous erections on doxy?
Did results taper while on it or were they steady?
How long did you take it for?
Interesting that an illness improved a symptom, as soon as your body cleared the virus you lost your improved vision?
Thanks
I occasionally get weak spontaneous erections but better than nothing. Very occasionally semi strong. I have been on doxy for 2 and a half years now and the results are steady. Fluctuates a little depending on if i masturbate - can only get semi strong at best here but notice i get prostatic pain if i do. Its as if instead of feeling it in my penis i feel it in the prostate. As i said it has improved me sexually 30% and made life tolerable.
Yeah the virus thing is strange. Other people have noticed an improvement in some symptoms when they got unwell too.
My CRP has always been normal.
What is your doxy dose? You said when you halved it you got worse, have you thought about increasing it?
The fact that your results are steady and have not tapered is interestingâŠeverything tapers, that ive tried and read about.
I take 100mg twice daily.
Have thought about it but not pursued it as donât want to overdo it either. Not sure it would help much more. On quite a high dose for long period of time.
Have you thought about adding another anti biotic to the mix at the same time such asâŠazithromycin or erythromycin?
Just come back from seeing an andrologist and by god what an arrogant man! Would not even consider the possibility of finasteride causing problems. As a medical student i was horrified with his general communication skills and when i challenged him he became even more defensive. He does not want to see me again and thank god for that!
It is a real shame that this professor and doctors in general find this so hard to believe. The evidence is a clear as day yet does not fit into their preconceived ideas. Told me to go see a psychosexual counsellor and refused to even talk to Dr Jacobs.
Iâm pissed off. When I am a doctor I promise to never ever be like this fucking twerp!
Very typical response of 99% of doctors. Your only option is PFS docs or self medicate unfortunately. I used to get the smug âyouâre crazyâ smirk alot.