Good to hear. I’ve also tried the lifestyle route, stopped all my supplements and just ate whatever the hell I wanted. Can’t really say it did anything.
Did you feel worse after dht cream?
That was a long time ago. It’s called andractim and came in a form of gel that I applied over my chest. I also had high E2 at the time. Not sure if it was helping since I also was on anti-estrogen. I did have spikes in libido but those horny feelings would always come to an end and I’d feel bad again.
I took gene test not just 23andMe i did long reads full exome and full genome
I have reduced dbh (Dopamine beta hydroxylase) activity so my convertion is low speed.
Btw there are guys who benefited from long term low dose cialis.
One guy took it for 9 months and recovered.
Yet it makes me super depressed additional to head aches and extremely expensive therapy.
Cialis also makes me depressed even though I only take 1-2mg at a time. Interestingly, it also lowers E2 and there’s a study on that.
I can’t help but wonder how low Dopamine conversion makes you feel? I’ve tried 15% Mucuna Prieriens and it usually makes me feel like a Superman at first with extreme motivation and sexuality and I could get boners just thinking of sex, but (and there’s always a BUT) that awesome feeling is later replaced with feeling of being over-stimulated, anxiety, jitters, restlessness, edginess… etc.
This is caused by high conversion of Dopamine to Adrenaline. Couple that with low Serotonin due to low E2 and BAM!!!
So I stopped Mucuna. I can barely tolerate caffeine in small doses (~50mg) at the moment. Btw, I started DHEA again at 10mg/day because my level has been consistently borderline low. I think it’s helping because I’m feeling noticeably better, but that could also be due to other factors.
I dropped everything else except a low dose histamine degrading Probiotic and a general multivitamin.
I am on prescription stimulant at highest dose. It normalizes my libido and kills my anhedonia. I thought i do not needed it and tried to drop it slowly last summer before i joined this forum… 4th day after last dose one day with my girl i lost all libido and desire i cannot explain how bad it was but i prayed god i did not have a gun in my house for an hour i really considered the worst. I immediately restarted and be normalized in a week.
I wasn’t like this before.
At first i only have mild ed from pfs then i begin to lost libido in my 3rd or 4th year i tried some libido pills and crashed on them so hard then my mental sides started I developed anxiety disorder not because pfs but the pill containing yohimbine.
To fix it they prescribed me a SSRI it totally killed my bed ridden libido but at that time mental side was the worst thing i have ever lived to that point so i did not cared about it that much.
In time SSRI also caused extreme attention deficiency so they add stimulant and with it miraculously my all off my mental sides mostly disappeared i even quit from SSRI without any problems.
About increasing dopamine, I am also afraid of placebo nocebo effect because, if you boost dopamine then, you’ll make your self prone to placebo effect.
It is like a double edge sword it either fixes your sexual sides or depend on your thoughts it can make you believe that you will never be able to fix your problem. It is like self hypnosis… if your dopamine and serotonin are already low you will not be easily effected by placebo and suggestions.
If your dopa is high and deep down you believe that you will not be successful then your brain makes sure that you will not be successful or the opposite depends in your beliefs.
It is like when you boost dopamine your range of feeling emotions, bad or good will be increased. I mean bad will be worst and good will be spectacular. In this situation there must be enough serotonin to counteract obsessive thoughts and bad feelings.
Neurotransmitter balance is really delicate since we already damaged by finasteride more susceptible to alterations.
Btw low e2 did not kills serotonin but rather it effects serotonin bindings of its receptors especially 5htr2a binding directly enhanced by e2.
If you have low e2 you will get lower activity in those receptors but may be higher on others there’s lots of study on this matter, which one is best for us that, i do not know but, I highly suspected that my short but almost total recovery in my first days of aromatase inhibition caused from this.
On the other hand some people reacted worst and became suicidal…
Everything that we try is like a double edged sword.
I play this gamble because i was in deep and nothing left to loose. Luckily i was lucky and i am much better now.
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Well said bro. I know what you mean when you say that Dopamine can either make it or break it. Likewise, it either makes me Superman or KILLS me totally. There’s no middle ground and I second that Serotonin may help balance it out. I admit that I think twice now before I reach out for L-Dopa pill because I know it could leave me feeling like an obsessive maniac with racing thoughts that I can’t control. On the other end of the spectrum, there were times when I experienced extreme state of euphoria that I can best describe as Manna from Heaven.
Indeed, we have a very delicate neurotransmitters balance. I’m now more focused on balancing my gut since it mostly correlates with my mood. I’m trying to achieve a better bacterial diversity through diet and supplementation and use Digestion, BMs, Mood, & Inflammation as my indicators.
Having balanced gut will affects many hormones and neurotransmitters such as Testosterone, E2 & DHT.
Hi bro,
Dealing with pfs for years. Only time I recovered was one week when I took arimidex. Tried it once more but didn’t have the same effects.
How long, how many cycles did you take arimidex to recover?
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I Give two week breaks then start with every day or every other day dose for 1-2 weeks if it loose effectiveness i slowly increase 2 times per week then total 15 day break. If you add tribulus to this they usually boost each other.
But be careful brother ai is effective but if back fires consequences will be hard.
One of worst things is when i do not take it my visual lust goes down dramatically and that really stresses me so much. In pfs you lose libido slowly and you don’t understand what you have lost. Aromasin or arimidex brings immediate relief instantly restores your visual lust and libido. I think with cycling i disrupted brain’s adaptation to new hormone balance or i might bring hormones to normal balance at each cycle. I do not know why or how yet it provides me a relief at least it is really good to have urge to sex.
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Food for thought:
I came across this study explaining low E2 effects on Men sexuality:
Menopause for men: estrogen affects middle-aged males
Written by Honor Whiteman on September 13, 2013
Researchers have discovered that, just as women go through menopause due to a dramatic decrease in estrogen production, middle-aged men undergo estrogen-related changes in body composition and sexual function.
The study, published in The New England Journal of Medicine , was conducted by researchers at Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH).
The researchers say that traditionally, when a diagnosis of male hypogonadism has been made - a drop in reproductive hormone levels that are high enough to cause physical symptoms - it has only been based on blood testosterone levels.
However, they say there has been little understanding of the levels of testosterone needed to support certain functions.
According to the study authors, a small proportion of the testosterone made by men is usually converted into estrogen by aromatase - a type of enzyme. The higher the testosterone level in a man, the more testosterone is converted into estrogen.
Researchers have found that low estrogen levels in men can trigger weight gain and adverse changes to their sexual functions.
They add that since men with low testosterone levels also have low estrogen levels, this makes it unclear as to which hormones support certain functions.
Therefore, the researchers wanted to determine the levels of hormone deficiency at which changes occur in men, and whether these are due to low levels of testosterone, estrogen or both.
For this study, the research team enrolled two groups of approximately 150 men aged between 20 and 50 who had normal reproductive functions.
The researchers assigned one group of men to receive daily doses of testosterone gel at one of four dosage levels, or a placebo gel for a period of 16 weeks.
Men in the second group were required to have the same testosterone doses but alongside an aromatase inhibitor, which was responsible for suppressing the conversion of testosterone into estrogen.
All men had their body composition and leg strength assessed at the beginning of the study and were required to complete monthly questionnaires and blood tests throughout the study period.
Aspects of testosterone deficiency determined by estrogen
Results of the study revealed that men who did not have estrogen production blocked showed increases in body fat similar to what would be seen at a mild level of testosterone deficiency.
When testosterone levels became low, this triggered decreases in lean body mass, the size of the thigh muscle and leg strength.
The sexual desire of the men decreased in line with each drop in testosterone levels, while erectile dysfunction did not occur until testosterone levels were very low.
Men who had their estrogen production blocked showed increases in fat at all testosterone dosage levels, as well as adverse changes in their in sexual function.
Joel Finklestein, of the Endocrine Unit at MGH and associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School, says:
“This study establishes testosterone levels at which various physiological functions start to become impaired, which may help provide a rationale for determining which men should be treated with testosterone supplements.”
“But the biggest surprise was that some of the symptoms routinely attributed to testosterone deficiency are actually partially or almost exclusively caused by the decline in estrogens that is an inseparable result of lower testosterone levels.”
Potential testosterone replacement therapy
The researchers note that in this present study, they have artificially induced a type of hormone deficiency commonly seen in aging men in order to provide a controlled model. They plan to conduct a follow-up study in older men to confirm the accuracy of this model.
They note that the findings of this study showing the effect of estrogen suggests that forms of testosterone used for therapy “should be capable of being aromatized into estrogen.”**
"We also need to look into how testosterone replacement therapy would affect prostate health - both prostate cancer and the prostate enlargement that causes unpleasant symptoms in many older men - and heart disease " says Finklestein.
“In light of what the Women’s Health Initiative discovered about the unexpected effects of estrogen replacement therapy in women, we need a Men’s Health Initiative to investigate those questions before large-scale testosterone replacement can be recommended.”
"
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The study above goes perfectly in line with what I’ve been saying over and over. Sadly, it took me many years of suffering to realize. Moral of the day: BEWARE of shooting down your E2!
What the study didn’t explain though is “Why do some Men (like myself) have very low E2 level despite normal Testosterone level?!”
There’re ZERO studies out there about this to this day. It’s for us to find out! My theory lies in the guts! I elucidated in my previous posts on how E2 is produced in Men. Let’s recap:
- Produced directly from Testicles
- Conversion from T via Aromatase enzyme
- Produced from Adrenals
- Recovered from the guts
So improving 1, 2, 3 & 4 can therefore increase E2. In my case:
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I’m not sure but I guess my testicles are ok.
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I’ve abused AIs for years (stupid me) and it could have fuc**** my Aromatase for good. There’re others who had the same issue with AIs on this forum. To my knowledge, there’s no test for aromatase activity. I’ll dig further into this
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My DHEA came out borderline low consistently via bloodwork. I started supplementing it a week ago and I’m looking to increase the dose.
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I’ve issues with my gut (dysbiosis). I’m currently on Probiotics but balancing histamine is quite challenging.
& -
My Vitamin D level is too high. Very high Vitamin D also lowers E2. In fact, all fat soluble vitamins tend to lower E2 in high doses.
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I just increased my DHEA to 25mg/day and will continue to do so for 30 days then I’ll repeat the blood test for Testosterone, E2, DHEA-s & Cortisol. I’ve reviewed my 1000+ pages daily journal and interestingly I found that my E2 climbed up to ~19 pg/ml during periods when I was on 5-10mg DHEA and my level was ~6mcg/l (2.41 - 11.6). I also experienced higher libido in those same periods. My Testosterone was around 550 ng/dL at the time.
So that leaves me with a T/E2 of 28. My present T/E2 is 50 and I’m suffering mainly from joints pain and cold insensitivity. It makes sense since my present E2 is only 11pg/ml and DHEA is 3.9 micg/L and the reference range is 2.41 - 11.6
I can still get erections if I wanted too, but the part that I want to work on is the motivation & sex drive/desire. I don’t want to resort to take amino acids (Tyrosine, L-Dopa… etc.) to fix the problem temporarily. I want to achieve a steady state.
I think even DHEA itself isn’t the cause, but more like a symptom of another underlying issue. I did a lot of research about DHEA and its numerous functions in the body and I was impressed by the fact that around 40% of the sex hormones are created from it. However, it mainly converts to E2 in Men, but that’s a very welcomed side effect in my case and others in the same boat (i.e. low E2). The big question though is why do I have low DHEA to begin with? I found some answers:
Low Copper status: I rarely ate beef liver in my life and studies state that low Copper halves serum DHEA. I began consuming beef liver for about 5 months.
High Zinc intake: I was on high Zinc dose (30-50mg) for years and Zinc counteracts Copper.
High Vitamin C: I was also on high dose (4-6g) Vitamin C for it’s antioxidant properties. However, Vitamin C also reduces Copper via chelation.
High Stress: Stresses brought on by PFS, work, workout, caffeine, & past Corticosteroids usage gave me high Cortisol for years. Cortisol shares an inverse relationship with DHEA.
Take-home message, get your DHEA tested in case you have low E2. I’ll report my findings with DHEA so others can benefit.
P.S. THIS IS NOT ADVICE FOR OTHERS TO TAKE DHEA. IT MAY HARM YOU AND MAKE YOUR FEEL WORSE IF YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU’RE DOING!
I took DHEA and it did nothing.
I do agree with the above study–too low estrogen causes tons of problems. Bone and joint pain, tendons wearing away, lower ability to think and remember, less erections and lower libido, all the stuff that older people go through naturally as a result of the aging process (lower E in women due to menopause, lower E in men due to lower testosterone being produced as one gets old).
Yes but I started my experimentation with ai because of conducted trials with old mans.
I have found several studies that claims older mans sexual dysfunction are caused by increased aromatase activity.
And if you have low e2 then finasteride must make you feel better because, it boosts estrogen and decreases most potent natural anti estrogen dht.
How much did you take and for how long? Did you have your DHEA-s level measured? Was it the normal DHEA or DHEA 7-Keto you took? There’s a chance that your low E2 is from the other causes I’ve explained in my previous post (Low Testosterone level, Low Aromatase activity, Gut dysbiosis, high SHBG, very high Vitamin D level). You need investigation and most doctors have no clue, unfortunately. They all told me E2 at 11 pg/ml is absolutely normal! BLOW ME!
I’ve tried to narrow down every possible cause for my lower E2 (despite normal Testosterone level). My serum DHEA-s consistently came borderline low and I’ve taken low dose DHEA on several occasions and did several E2 tests and observed something with my E2 behavior (Turned out higher at ~19 pg/ml), but I brushed it off as a mere coincident. I then stopped DHEA for 3 months and my recent E2 turned out at only 11 pg/ml and literally experiencing all of the symptoms you listed. I restarted higher DHEA dose (25mg) and I’ll have a bloodwork done in 2-4 weeks mark and see what happens. In the meantime, I’ll keep everything else as is.
The old school theory was that old men experience symptoms @Crossroads mentioned due to high estrogen. I used this same theory for over 10 years (2007 through 2017) in which I took AIs over and over and YES I dare to say there were times when I felt completely recovered but those recoveries never last. I also had high E2 (~ 40 pg/ml) back then and, like you, I over did AIs despite flagging symptoms.
It’s a different ballgame for me now. Old men cannot have high E2 if their Testosterone is low to begin with. It is proven that Testosterone levels start to decline by the age of 30 onwards and for some the rate of this decline is faster than others so they resort to TRT and feel night and day difference. Moreover, those on TRT can also tell you how finding that sweet T/E2 spot is challenging and when ever they drive their E2 way too low they feel miserable despite having SUPER HIGH TESTOSTERONE.
Taking finesteride to lower DHT and increase E2 is not only a bad idea but also PERILOUS ONE! Both 5AR and DHT serve numerous functions in the body and 5AR is used for many other conversions other than T > DHT. I recall being on finesteride and having high E2 & lower DHT, I suffered most of the symptoms PFSers report on here including (but not limited to) loss of penile sensitivity, slurred speech, feminine fat distribution, lowered libido, water retention, slow thought processing (brain fog), decreased strength among many others. DHT balances E2 and it’s the optimal ratio between the two that matters.
Low E2 isn’t necessarily caused by Testosterone conversion. It can be caused by low Testosterone, bad gut, adrenal issue, high SHBG/liver issue, and even on very high dose of fat soluble vitamins.
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Hey bro!
I got my thyroid profile done and the doctor thinks its normal. What do you think?
T3 - 78 ng/dl 58 - 159
T4- 7.04 ug/dl 4.87 - 11.72
TSH- 3.17 uIU/ml 0.35 - 4.94
FT3- 3.14 pg/ml 1.71 - 3.71
FT4- 1 ng/dl 0.70 -1.48
I have been trying to increase my E2 which is currently around 10! Started supplementing Vitamin C 1000mg, I do suffer from eczema since 7 years on and off, read your post regarding histamine do you think i should opt for a cortisteriod like prednisolone or an anti-histamine. I am also getting a DHEA-S test done to have a clearer picture. May i know what type of probiotic you supplementing and the strains. I have come across this probiotic at 60billion cfu by piping rock containing – -Lactobacillus acidophilus (LA-14), Lactobacillus plantarum (LP-115), Lactobacillus paracasei (LPC-37), Lactobacillus rhamnosus (LR-32), Lactobacillus bulgaricus (LB-87), Bifidobacterium bifidum (BB-06), Bifidobacterium longum (BL-05), Streptococcus thermophilus (ST-21), Lactobacillus brevis (LBR-35), Lactobacillus gasseri (LG-36), Lactobacillus casei (LC-11), Lactobacillus salivarius (LS-33), Bifidobacterium breve (BB-03), Bifidobacterium lactis (BL-04).
Hello bro.
What I really care about in thyroid test is TSH, FT4, & FT3. Your TSH is on the high’ish side despite good FT3 & FT4 levels. Did you try to measure your body temperature first thing in the morning? Are you using iodized salt? Are you taking anything at the moment? Optimal TSH is usually close to 1.00. Try and get tested for Hashimoto’s antibody test since you said you’re experiencing other autoimmune disorders (eczema).
I was able to eradicate my eczema for good! It took me 3 months to figure it out. I don’t recommend you to take neither Corticosteriod nor anti-histamine. Well, if your cortisol levels proved low then yes you may be a candidate for Corticosteriods (adrenal issue). Anti-histamines will lower its level too much and cause other unwanted issues. You want to attack the cause not the symptoms. My eczema flare came after I used histamine producing probiotic (L. reuteri) for a while and combining it with DHEA intake. It appears that DHEA stimulates the immune function and combining it with the specific strains I used (L. reuteri) produced a perfect formula for autoimmunity!
Vitamin C did help, but as a short-term solution. What really CURED me though was taking antibiotic Xifixan for 7 days and then use the histamine degrading probiotic strains Lactobacillus gasseri, Bifidobacterium bifidum, Bifidobacterium longum, Lactobacillus plantarum, & Bifidobacterium breve at 5Billion CFU daily. The probiotic you suggested combines both histamine producing and degrading strains. I usually don’t recommend very high CFUs.
Your E2 is 10!! Oh I really feel for you bro. How are you feeling? I need a minimum of 19 pg/ml to start feeling good mentally and physically.
Get the following battery of tests:
DHEA-s
Cortisol
Hashimoto’s anti-bodies
LH
Testosterone
SHBG
Liver profile
Vitamin D
Stay away from anything that lowers E2:
V. High doses fat soluble vitamins D, K, E & A
V. High dose B-Vitamins.
High dose beta-Carotene
Green tea
Tongkat ali
Melatonin
High dose Zinc
Any anti-aromatase (arimidex, aromasin, letrozol, DIM…etc.)
grape seed
High consumption olive oil
High dose fish oil
SAMe
Pine pollen
High caffeine consumption
Came across this 14mins podcast on YouTube for a well-known trt doctor elucidating the perils of aromatase inhibitors (AI’s).
MORE reason to steer clear from AIs! I can literally resonate with everything he talks about.
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Wtf Man,
You took AI for almost a decade ? Did Your testicals failed because of overwhelming pressure from LH and FSH?
I am taking a break from ai but my late ejaculation problem returned it is really hard to achieve climax may be because increased serotonin binding to receptors. I also lost some libido and visual lust.
It seems i am okay for now but some damn pfs symptoms are returning unfortunately.
What do you think about estrogen modulators?
They have estrogenic on estrogen beta receptors and boosts T to the roof too.
And weird thing for me is my T levels increased after 30 years old and after finasteride when i was 36 i hit 1150 ng/dL now if i do not take any ai it hovers around 800-900 band with ai exceeds 1200
I watched it yes it is very dangerous if you are on Trt but if you are not on Trt ai will not kill e2. When i was on daily 2 mg an Anastrozole my e2 was like 35.
“ Although aromatase inhibition by anastrozole and letrozole is reported to be close to 100%, administration of these inhibitors to men will not suppress plasma estradiol levels completely. In men third-generation aromatase inhibitors will decrease the mean plasma estradiol/testosterone ratio by 77% [28,29]. This finding probably relates to the high plasma concentrations of testosterone, a major precursor for estradiol synthesis in adult men. As aromatase inhibition is dose dependent it has been suggested that aromatase is less suppressed in the testis compared to adipose and muscle tissue, explaining the incomplete efficacy of aromatase inhibition in men. Aromatase activity is high in the testes and the molar ratio of testosterone to letrozole is much higher in the testes compared with adipose and muscle tissue. When testicular testosterone and estradiol synthesis are suppressed and testosterone is administered exogenously in combination with letrozole, however, the estradiol/testosterone ratio is suppressed by 81% [30], which is only marginally different from the suppression of this ratio in intact men after treatment with letrozole. This incomplete suppression may be regarded as advantageous for it prevents excessive reduction of estrogen levels in men and the possible associated adverse effects. In postmenopausal women with breast carcinoma, long-term use of potent aromatase inhibitors reduces circulating estradiol levels by 88% [31] and is associated with adverse effects on bone [2,3]. Due to the much higher estrogen levels in treated men it remains to be determined whether this also holds true for men.“
Brother. AI’s are AI’s! It doesn’t matter whether you are on trt or not. I’d even argue that AI’s WITHOUT trt is even worse and potentiate the danger since testosterone level on trt will likely reach new heights and this leads to the body converting % of this T to its metabolites (i.e. E2 & DHT) in an attempt to achieve a state of homeostatis. E2 is the governing factor in HPTA axis negative feedback loop and inhibiting it through AI’s will trick the body that there’s not enough E2 circulating around and hence higher LH output to signal the donads (leydig cells) into producing more Testosterone for conversion via aromatase and achieve the vital E2 level. The same concept “may” be applicable for DHT (i.e. finesteride).
Yes, I’ve been on various AI’s ON and OFF for over 10 years and I, too, had high E2 (~40). My testosterone was never low, though. It was just a high E2 problem (or so I thought) and I reckoned I was doing myself a great favor controlling it with AI’s (WORST DECISION EVER!). You know what else? I was overweight with BF% around 25%. It’s quite plausible that losing that extra weight and dropping my BF% to a more healthy level would simply have solved my problem once and for all! Guess I just wanted a shortcut forcing my body into “perceived” normality.
You say you have high testosterone level and this means that high E2 shouldn’t a problem because it’s the ratio that really matters. Speaking of which, were your E2 tested using the standard or sensitive assay? The standard is known to overestimate its level meaning the actual level is far less.
I’m not here to dissuade you to do what you believe is right for you. I’m only here to share my knowledge and save lives that otherwise might fall victims to life devastating mistakes.
Wish you all the best man.