My Long PFS Journey

Member Stories
#227

Yes brother sudden change in e2 made me extremely tired in my first week of ai trial.

I was taking 40 mg methylphenidate plus modafinil plus coffee and i was still deadly tired and lethargic… if other guys did not warned me about it before i might scared to death and run in emergency.

I have started this because @JustQuitDut protocol seemed sound. I also made some research and check human trials for old age androgen restoration therapies.
Two of the urologists i have visited told me that finasteride caused my androgenic system aged more than normal and there is no cure except prosthetics… i was devastated. i felt nothing to loose it by trying and some how it worked on me.

Until jaundice :frowning:

May be other supplements were protected me from going too bad.

I was taking regular doses of fish oil niacin statin methylphenidate methylfolate.

Two of them really extremely helpful on joint pains and flu like symptoms
i just doubled the dose and pain dissipated largely. Niacin increased 500g 1-1.5g and high epa fishoil increased to 1.5 g epa 0.5g dha per day.

I thought, I couldn’t live without coffee but, after methylphenidate I am able to switch to decaf, today i just mistakenly drink coffee after forskolin.

I will not want to yield anxiety i will try to push it until bottle empties.
I also suspected that expectation anxiety “ anticipatory anxiety” and nocebo effect have some role in this syndrome and makes it treatment resistant.

#228

This all is interesting to hear. So I was on Letrozol for about 4-5 weeks @ 2.5mg ED.
That was over a year ago.

Before Letrozol my labs looked something like this:
Total Testosterone 12-13 nmol/l [range 10-38]
Free Testosterone 180-190 pmol/l [range 230-585]
SHBG 35-45 nmol/L [range 14-71]
Estradiol(E2) 0.07 nmol/l [range <0.15]
LH 3.7 U/l [range 1-9]

On Letrozol labs looked like this (3-4 weeks on it):
Total Testosterone 30.8 nmol/l [range 10-38]
Free Testosterone 461 pmol/l [range 230-585]
SHBG 37 nmol/L [range 14-71]
Estradiol(E2) 0.08 nmol/l [range <0.15]
LH 8.6 U/l [range 1-9]

After Letrozol labs looked like this (1-2 weeks after cessation):
Total Testosterone 15.3 nmol/l [range 10-38]
Free Testosterone 231 pmol/l [range 230-585]
SHBG 36 nmol/L [range 14-71]
Estradiol(E2) 0.13 nmol/l [range <0.15]
Estradiol(E2)sensitive 0.11 nmol/l [range <0.15]

After cessation of Letrozol I had 1 day (about 4 days after stopping Letro) when my genital sensitivity, visual lust, sex-drive, etc returned to near normal. So testosterone was decreasing, E2 did a rebound and in some point there was this optimal situation and all worked. But after that came the ultimate-horror times. Genitals lost all sensitivity, sleep problems started, gut problems started, whole body skin went numb, etc, etc… Before Letrozol my genitals were bad but not that bad. Before it was more like numbness. But right after starting Letrozol the numbness turned into this unsensitivity, different than before. And has been so for over a year. Before the sensitivity was around 4-5/10 and now it has been like 0,5-1/10 many months and apparently decreasing to 0 on time.

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#229

This is really interesting i got the opposite reaction my sensitivity restored immediately.
I was crying out of joy, it was like a second adolescences most importantly i got my visual lust back while on it regularly. I mean same porn that i watched since adolescent years and i thought I desensitized to it, made me arouse again.
Also when i was out and see a woman i was arousing immediately.
Then I understand what i have lost over the years.

I am really more curious about our opposite reactions to same treatment methods.

Are we all became mentally unstable so we easily influenced by placebo response or our brains rewired randomly and nothing has reliable consistent effect or some of different supplements works in synergy and changes outcome?
Do we have some kind of Nero-inflammation Or altered nerosteroids has unexpected responses according to genetic background of pfs patients?

Lab results are almost same yet outcome completely opposite…

#230

Yes indeed this is interesting. I still think that the main reason for you to have success on it, is that your sweet spot is different to mine. So basicly it´s the thing @doomed80 has told as all this time. My sweet spot was reached when I stopped the drug and when hormones started to adjust to the opposite way and reached my sweet spot for one day. So my sweet spot might have been approx: testosterone 20, free testo 250-300, E2 10-11 + (many other hormones affect also on top of that). Your sweet spot is maybe on higher testosterone level or another words your baseline have been higher to mine before all this HPTA shock, which have bring us to the world of imbalances. Also T:E2 ratio can be a little different with different individuals.

More and more I´m thinking the more severe multiple approach to this condition. Even tough the gut is one of the biggest issue to be sorted out, there are still so many different ways to push the body towards homeostasis. Gut, adrenals, thyroid, brain, detox, diet, exercise, list goes on… And the recovery protocol would need to be very very strict. All of these component would need to pushed towards balance for quite a long time, maybe years. When we think that we have done all we can and we have been on a very strict protocol, we are nowhere near what we suppose to do.

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#231

Doomed80: My testosterone is currently hovering around 800-1000 (measured in at 895). My dht is quite low for that at 45 and my E2 is 42-48 (2 measurements)

I have mainly the sexual and physical symptoms of PFS including ED, low libido, etc, and dry skin, thinned skin, muscle mass decrease, and fatigue. No issues with rash, or itchiness, or anything.

Should I get on DHT treatment?

#233

Sorry you’re going through this. I need more details so I could try and help.

•What is your age, height and current weight and body fat%?
•How long did you use finesteride? What is the dose? and when did you quit it?
•What are the measuring units and lab ranges for DHT & E2?
•Do you have any other tests for Thyroid (TSH,FT4,FT3) and Adrenals (Cortisol, DHEA-s)?
•Do you have any gastrointestinal problems?
•Are you on any medications and/or supplements?

#234

I did not measured dht but it looks like our profile looks very similar.
I am also a high T high E guy.

#235

I think you might be right on this one. I was a high T guy as far as i know even before pfs. After pfs my T skyrocketed for 2 years then it reduced and stayed upper end of the range 700-900 mg/dl. E2 was on the upper end range too.

Weird thing is most noticeable recovery was in my first week and in time i loosen it except refractory period sensitivity and libido (thank god i am not an asexual person anymore). Even libido goes down if i do not cycle it.

Also for example, i do not feel any difference from tribulus but when i use it with ai i can feel the difference.

#236

I’m 18 and used Minoxidil for 6 months.

Minoxidil also inhibits DHT, I had the crash and everything.

Dht was ng/dl, E2 was pg/ml

I never had any signs of high estrogen before minox. I had narrow hips and a very flat firm chest. Now I have wide hips and some slight man boobs. I took this shit during developmental years and I haven’t had an urge to masturbate in weeks. My doctor legit thought this was all an issue with my cortisol, got that tested via saliva test and low and behold it was normal. Still refuses to get me on DHT treatment but she also said she wanted to wait 6 weeks before considering anything.

Haven’t gotten anything measured in thyroid or adrenals but I really don’t believe this is a thyroid or adrenal issue. This is an issue with androgen sensitivity and t-dht conversion 100%. Especially considering I didn’t take Finasteride itself.

#237

You didn’t specify reference ranges, when did you quit finesteride, whether or not you have any GI issues, and if you are currently on any medications/supplements.

That said, DHT reference range is usually 14 - 77 ng/dL. Your DHT is 45, which is mid range and you “may” benefit from higher DHT level. Also your T/E2 ratio is ~18 which by definition is good, but there is that delicate “sweet spot” that restores sexuality. Based on your symptoms (fat distribution) I’d surmise that you’d benefit from higher T/E2 ratio with E2 being in the 22-30 range.

If it has not been long since you quit finesteride and minoxidil, then I simply advise you to give it sometime so things can balance out and reach homeostasis. 4-6 months is normal in case of hormone imbalances.

Otherwise, you may try “natural” anti-estrogen lifestyle, diet and supplements:

Lose weight and fat
Cruciferous vegetables
Increase fiber in diet
ZMA
Fish oil
Green tea extract
Olive oil
B-Vitamins
Boron (3mg/d)

Also, check Vitamin D level and if “low” then supplement it. It will help lower E2 level.

#238

My vit d isn’t low. Dht is 45 with a reference range of 33-133. Testosterone is 895 with a reference range of 270-1300. E2 is 48 with a reference range of 15-50.

I quit minoxidil June 28th 2019.

I’ve tried fasting and many supplements including some of the ones you listed. Nothing improves my low libido, dry skin, inability to gain muscle, and chronic fatigue.

There is more to PFS than just messed up hormones. It is 100% a hormonal issue though but there is also androgen sensitivity to consider, in which mine is probably quite low. All my sides line up with low DHT.

#240

It’s quite sad to get this disease at your youthful age but like I said the key solution is to wait it out first and try not to tinker with other hormones for at least 6 months. That alone may help you recover. They may be other factors at play in PFS and that’s why I always advise a “global approach” if waiting alone doesn’t resolve the issue.

You have high E2 & low DHT (according to reference ranges provided), which is a common hormonal profile with many finesteride users and as mentioned earlier there’s a “sweet spot” for T/E2 & E2/DHT ratios that should restore your sexuality. Some may be tempted to take anti-estrogen drugs but that’s as dangerous as finesteride.

Do you have other symptoms other than the ones you specified?

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#241

Hello Doomed

I would like to know what is converting DA to A I don’t understand this what does DA and A mean?
If you have link on where did you get this information I would like to read more on it.

Thank you in advance.

#242

Hello brother. It’s funny how years of suffering made me speak with research jargons :slight_smile:

There you go:
DA: Dopamine
NE: Norepinephrine
A: Adrenaline

Caffeine acts on Adenosine Receptors (AR) leading to spikes in DA levels in addition to Cortisol. That’s why many get addicted to the feeling of being stimulated/motivated and higher alertness on caffeine. That being said, the chemical pathway goes like this: Dopamine 》Norepinephrine 》Adrenaline

The rate in which this conversion occurs differs between different individuals. In my case, I’m a quick converter so drinking caffeinated coffee (or any other caffeinated drink for that matter) quickly results in symptoms of anxiety (high Adrenaline). This feeling is exacerbated when Serotonin (5-HT) is low (my case because my Estradiol E2 is low & E2 governs 5-HT production). Dopamine and Serotonin balance each other out.

I tried Mucuna Prieriens before and it also provides me with stimulation (high DA) at first but that quickly translates to a feeling of anxiety/restlessness (high A). Mucuna contains L-Dopa (DA precursor).

There is so much research about caffeine and anxiety in predisposed individuals.

Hope that helps

#243

Hello brother. It’s funny how years of suffering made me speak with research jargons :slight_smile:

There you go:
DA: Dopamine
NE: Norepinephrine
A: Adrenaline

Caffeine acts on Adenosine Receptors (AR) leading to spikes in DA levels in addition to Cortisol. That’s why many get addicted to the feeling of being stimulated/motivated and higher alertness on caffeine. That being said, the chemical pathway goes like this: Dopamine 》Norepinephrine 》Adrenaline

The rate in which this conversion occurs differs between different individuals. In my case, I’m a quick converter so drinking caffeinated coffee (or any other caffeinated drink for that matter) quickly results in symptoms of anxiety (high Adrenaline). This feeling is exacerbated when Serotonin (5-HT) is low (my case because my Estradiol E2 is low & E2 governs 5-HT production). Dopamine and Serotonin balance each other out.

I tried Mucuna Prieriens before and it also provides me with stimulation (high DA) at first but that quickly translates to a feeling of anxiety/restlessness (high A). Mucuna contains L-Dopa (DA precursor).

There is so much research about caffeine and anxiety in predisposed individuals.

Hope that helps

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#244

You can read my member introduction post.

And I’ve already been off the drug for 8 months with no improvement. I’m not continuing like this, the only people I see recovering are the people that treat their hormones and androgen receptors.

#245

Can confirm. That’s what gave me “PFS” along with others here.

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#246

I really feel your frustration. Been there, done that. It’s just that there isn’t much (if anything) that can be done about androgen receptors. I’ve friends who were on finesteride and experienced sexual problems and yet they bounced back to being normal literally taking NOTHING. So there’s hope for you and others in the same boat. 8 months in the realm of hormones isn’t too long. It certainly can take that long and even longer. Ask anyone who has been on bodybuilding steroids.

You’re lucky to have high Testosterone level to begin with. As I said, it’s most likely a matter of imbalanced ratios (T:E2 & E2:DHT) than androgen receptors downregulation/upregulation/insensitivity/… etc.

In the meantime, exhaust all “natural” solutions possible before resorting to “more hormones” to feel better.

Try:
4X resistance workout per week.
Moderate Cardio sessions.
Lose weight & body fat if you are overweight &/or with high fat%. Fat increases estrogen.
Get enough quality sleep.
Get enough fats & protein through diet.
ZMA supplement (zinc helps balance E2).
Try “Tongkat Ali” from Source Naturals. It helps lower estrogen and increase free Testosterone.

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#247

No offense to your advice, I welcome it, but I have tried all of that and more and it has only made me feel worse as it increases my testosterone and estrogen even more

Literally everything you have listed I have done.

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#248

None taken. Funnily though, I’ve literally been on dozens upon dozens of drugs/supplements that worth thousands of dollars to fix my problems over the years. You name it: anti-estrogens, DHT creams, Testosterone shots, pills, hormone replacement, amino acids, numerous supplements and herbs and yet my situation and symptoms kept fluctuating over and over with new symptoms arising and I couldn’t feel normal, ever. More than 10 years later I’m taking very, very a few things and I’m feeling my best ever!

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