This is a quote from you in another thread. It sure seems like you’re sitting, bitching any crying here without offering any constructive feedback, hypocrite.
At least I’m trying something based on extensive research into what’s worked and what hasn’t for people on these forums. Even if it doesn’t work, at least I’m trying.
What’s not constructive about warning you that if you take that dosage for more than a few weeks then you will desensitize receptors and render further injections ineffective? Anyway, treatment for hypogonadism as a treatment for PFS has been tried here 10000x before without success if you do a search. There’s a reason why the term “PFS” exists, which is that it isn’t merely hypogonadism. Good luck to you regardless.
I’ve scoured the internet and not found a single indication of HCG desensitizing receptors of any kind, so why would you say such a thing without offering citation, especially after being called out on it? I’ve spent the last 2 months looking at HCG stories on this forum, and some have been a success, zero have had adverse effects, and I don’t think I’ve read of anybody taking HCG and Clomid in tandem to work synergistically.
Read more.
Alright, if anybody else can provide a citation to back up vkg1’s claims, then I’m receptive. Because apparently there are no citations and he’s mistaking this particular protocol with one of the many other failures that he’s read about and conflating them.
Most studies done on hcg and leydig cells are rat studies. But they are indeed there. Using low dose and subq injection lowers the potential for damage.
But there is also evidence low dose hcg could re-sensitive the leydig cells so it’s not all black and white.
I’m going to bed now, but I can post citations after I wake up.
Also hcg could have some other interesting effects, like to increase pregnenolone without affection T.
Also if using recombinant hcg, which I would assume most are it can increase T but without any raise in estrogens, atleast in rats.
So it wouldn’t be a surprise if it actually would help some PFS patients. Because even if we all used the same drug to get here, our symptoms differ a lot.
And if you want to share your LH and FSH test results I’d greatly appreciate it.
Thank you for elaborating a bit. I’ve looked into Clomiphene a bit more and see that it can raise SHBG levels. Given that I have pretty elevated SHBG levels as it is (53.1 with a reference ranged of 16.5 - 55.9 for my age group), I ultimately determined that this was not the route I wanted to take despite my doctor’s advice. I don’t think that there is anything wrong with my pituitary gland, so it’s probably not necessary to upregulate its activity.
Because I’ve decided not to use the Clomiphene, I figured I may as well run the Joekool protocol of 250 UI every other day for 3 days of the week rather than 1,000 UI every 3rd day. So while some of my HCG will go to waste (since it goes bad after 60 days of refrigeration) and I ultimately spent money on Clomiphene that I won’t use, I think it is the safer route so as not to increase my SHBG levels or desensitize my Leydig cells. I’ve been on countless websites and read parts of dozens of journals and found that high levels of HCG have been shown to desensitize leydig cell activity while low level therapies have actually shown to have the opposite effect! I should have flagged the specific studies that cite this earlier, but I can’t seem to find them now. Oh well.
So I started the protocol on 7/6/2021 and have since had two subcutaneous injections into my stomach with a 30 gauge insulin needle. Joekool said that he did subcutaneous injections but also mentioned that he injected it into his arm (???) so this is where I’m deviating from his method. It’s only been a few days but I feel night and day different and my libido is back to a place it hasn’t been since even well before the Finasteride usage. I almost cried tears of joy this morning when I woke up to morning wood and a very engorged member haha. I’ve had a couple occasions in the past couple days where I’ve been horny without the use of porn and I almost forgot what that felt like. I hope this dosage isn’t too high since it’s hitting me pretty quickly, but I’m going to try to reach out to Joekool to see what he weighs and possibly adjust my dosage accordingly.
I will keep this updated for the lurkers that are actually seeking help. For those of you that want to shit on everybody because misery loves company and you’re miserable people, go right ahead. I’m going to keep documenting this despite you.
Great to hear, mate. Keep us posted regularly so we can see how you’re going.
Welp, it looks like I’m crashing again. The first 5 days or so I felt great. Sleep improved, libido and genitals improved, mood improved, muscle mass improved, energy improved, mental clarity improved. This actually made me nervous because Joekool’s protocol indicated that it took him around 10 weeks to start seeing the benefits.
The crash started on the morning of the 11th when I found myself having a really hard time sleeping. Later that day my libido and genitals were noticeably more pathetic and I was lethargic and depressed throughout the day. On the 12th I struggled with sleep and on the 13th, I finally got a lot of it but was unbelievably fatigued throughout most of the day. Depression is back. My left testicle hurts. I’m bloating and have developed gyno and have weight accumulating around my midsection again.
I panicked a bit and took a quarter of one of my 50mg Clomiphene pills in hopes that it will somehow help the situation and maybe stop what might be an estrogen feedback loop. I don’t know. I went to sleep 2 hours ago and like every crash, I’m awake two hours later almost to the minute. I had been sleeping without sweating for a month or so and I’m in a full blown night sweat right now.
Why does this shit keep happening? Is there really nothing that works? Is death actually the only way to end this? I just want to be normal again. This has to be autoimmune.
Check out my post you replied to earlier in the thread.
HCG is not a cure, it just pushes your LH up and you start to produce estrogen, as evident by the gyno.
You def dont want gyno so, you were probably smart to start the clomid but it’ll make you feel worse now because it blocks estrogen in the brain. You’ll just have to tough it out.
Yes, autoimmune or neurosteroid related. Look up naltrexone. I’ve been researching it non stop for the last 2 weeks.
So I started taking 1/4 of my 50 mg clomiphene pills every 24 hours which wasn’t originally a part of the plan since I wanted to follow Joekool’s protocol to the ‘t’. I’ve also reduce my HCG injections to 200 mg from 250 mg. Basically I’m taking about 1/4 dose of what the doctor prescribed. So instead of taking 2000 mg of the HCG each week and 350 mg of Clomiphene each week, I’m averaging about 500 mg of HCG and 87.5 mg of Clomiphene.
My mood has gotten back to normal and I’m no longer, anxious, depressed, or manic. The one major difference I’ve noticed is in my sleep. I’m getting over 8 hours, which is absolutely unheard of. My libido is still low, but at least I’m not experiencing pain anymore.
Nice to hear your getting some good results.
Do you plan to get blood done now when you’re feeling better to see where you at?
Also I see you got issues with gyno. It was wise to start Clomid, just be wary because Clomid will only “hide” the problem when you use it.
It is a SERM and will block the estrogen receptor (ER) in your breast tissue. But it will at the same time block the negative feedback so your body will crank your LH even further.
Basically it will prevent gyno, but it will also raise T and E2 making you more susceptible for gyno if you go off it without addressing those issues.
New update: the Clomiphene helped ease some of the effects of the HCG, but made me unbelievably depressed and suicidal. I stopped taking it, and now after a couple of weeks I feel back to about my usual post-PFS baseline. I’m going to try a lower dose of the HCG (150 mg 3x weekly) so as not to waste the expensive ass vial that I got. I’m pretty confident that if it sets me back, I can discontinue usage, take Clomiphene once or twice and then just grit my teeth through a week or two of depression and/or anxiety. The crashes never seem to last too long so long as I cut off whatever substance I’m using pretty quickly.
I take a probiotic pretty regularly that keeps my cognition in tip-top shape and helps me stay productive at work at the very least. I might try to incorporate Apigenin to help with the sleep that’s pretty sporadic these days.
Clomid is awful, there’s a reason why it isn’t used for TRT etc. It’s basically has the psychological effect of being overdosed on female hormones, like having PMS or something 24/7. There’s a reason why it is dreaded even just for PCT by bodybuilders. Made me feel like I was about to cry constantly. It’s deeply sad how these same chemicals keep coming up on here as if they are a new idea that hasn’t failed a million times before.
News??
Hey brother, any updates?
Hey all sorry for the lack of updates. I went off everything with a plan to start another cycle of HCG at a lower dose (150 ml 3x/week) two weeks after cessation of the first cycle. After the first dose, I experienced a pain in my left testicle and my semen turned completely clear again. I stopped and threw that batch away since it was a few weeks from going bad anyway and I don’t plan to try a cycle any time soon. I have two more batches of HCG to try later but I don’t have high hopes for it. Next time I’ll try 100ml. It’s supposed to stimulate your leydig cells at low doses which I feel contribute greatly to a lot of the sexual issues regarding this condition.
I tried forskolin for a day and got the same pain in my left testicle with watery ejaculate. I stopped immediately. Over the past couple weeks I’ve had pretty regular nocturnal erections which is weird, but I don’t know if it’s related at all to this protocol. I’m completely out of ideas so I’ll probably try this shit again in a couple months or something and will update then.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. I’m not sure how these random people cured themselves with HCG/forskolin/proviron.
As an aside, VKG is a narcissistic douchebag who contributes nothing here and only disparages people that he views as not being as enlightened as he is. Dude doesn’t even follow up on his protocols when they don’t work so as not to damage his pristine view of himself. And if you look at his history, he’s as hypocritical as they come as well. Guy is a textbook narcissist who thinks more highly of himself than anybody else ever will.
Hey man sorry you don’t like what I say it’s just HCG has been tried and failed with here for 15 years. Why would we think that synthetic LH would be the cure for PFS? It doesn’t make any sense at all. It’s like popping supposed libido herbs and thinking that will cure PFS. Not sure what referring to as far as protocols from me. I think all I’ve introduced here in terms of ideas for therapy would be sharing that libido enhancement strategy that I guess no one here has tried. I will probably try it if I can find GHB but might not report result if no one else trying as doing so seems to discourage others from trying and N=1 isn’t enough to indicate virtually anything. The big tragedy here is that people are losing years barking up tree thinking home remedies might somehow cure PFS when we could’ve easily gotten research started and even a cure available by now otherwise. Even if some pill we could pop now would somehow be useful, it’d probably have a negative overall affect if it perpetuates the home-pill-popping as cure illusion that has cost us 15 years of our lives.
Thanks for the update brother. Sorry to hear the trials weren’t successful. I can’t judge anyone for desperately searching for relief from this hell. I just hope you guys don’t get hurt. The way some protocols work for some and not others without much explanation makes this so tough. Thanks for keeping us updated!
FYI Apigenin seems to have set me back a bit. It helped get me tired at night but I noticed that I started to get more and more depressed. Now I’ve stopped taking it and my sleep is miserable every night and I’m extremely anxious and depressed.