Yes fellas, these visits seem to generate more questions than answers.
All I can add is that he did mention the thyroid, but I can’t remember what he said.
We’ll have to wait till he gets the results of the blood and urine tests before I have any more answers.
The clinic does appear to be very busy now - they said the 2nd appt s/be in 1 months time but there is no available slot for 2 months.
I managed to get my 2nd appt with Herthoge brought forward to 22nd December, and apparently it will be just him for the whole 45 min/ 1 hr (whatever it is). If anyone has any questions to put to him I will try to fit them in.
One thing that I’m questioning is the 25 pages he gave me on the diet to follow. It stated that a diet similar to that of Paleolithic man before the advent of agriculture should be followed;
Eat plenty of protein, vegetables, fruit etc. and sprouted grains- nuts, beans soaked in water for 24 hrs, amongst other things.
Avoid unsprouted grains (bread, cereals, pasta) dairy products and high sugar foods in general including fruit juice.
I will find out the test results and what treatment I am to follow. I have attached the list of what the urine tests cover.
Urine 17.11.09.pdf (142 KB)
To.robin, What is this drs expertise? Does he have a track record of improving guys with low testosterone or sexual disfunctions like ED? Or is he knowlegable about the specific damages that propecia cause and how to treat it?
I guess doctors in UK are very different from the US. They never give patients detailed information as to what foods to eat and what to avoid. At this point I’m willing to try anything and I’m curious about his diet.
That is the paleo diet and it is what I follow now. Plenty of energy and it keeps your mood at a very even keel. No ups and downs from complex carbs and relatively easier on the digestion. Check out this video
youtube.com/watch?v=uCFZoqmKf5M
This is the diet I recommend after fasting and being raw for an extended period of time.
To.robin
What’s your position in relation to 3 Adiol G - have you had it tested?
I’m back from my 2nd visit to Herthoge in Brussels to get the test results and a prescribed treatment; this time it was with Dr L’Hermitte (female) his senior colleague. Again I’ll recount what I can remember from what she said about my results (which I have attached);
My thyroid function maybe slightly low.
I have a low white blood cell count and low sodium (I think).
My Adiol-G is low and Estrogen is too high.
Somatomedine and IGF s/be in a ratio of 100/1 and mine is not high enough and that ratios are the important factor in all hormone results.
I also had low Cortisol at the time of the test.
In general L’Hermitte explained they aim to get all these values in the upper third or quarter of the reference range for optimum function.
She mentioned they had experience of patients losing muslce after finasteride and that they normally prescribed finasteride with testosterone.
I wast told we needed to raise my DHT -going on my Adiol G levels, so, I have been prescribed:
Testogel 10% - 2.5 gram/day
DHEA 20mg - 1 a day
Arimidex - 1/4 tablet - 3 a week, to stop conversion to Estrogen
Nutri A 25,000IU (Vit A) - 4 a day, for eyesight -night blindness
Mixed E (Vit E) 1000mg - 1 a day
Dedrogyl (Vit D) 15mg/100ml - 7 drops a day
Carnitine 750mg - 5 a day, for musculature
The Testogel is to b applied to the upper torso where there isn’t any hair -that’s going to be difficult now! It will have to go on the forehead, side of torso and a little on the neck.
They’re very careful to prescribe pills according to the filler or shell they use. I’ve had to order the Testogel from Germany, which I am now waiting for. The vitamins have just arrived from another supplier in Belgium, and the rest I got at the local pharmacy near the clinic.
I go back to the clinic in 4 months to see if I have progressed - time will tell.
Herthoge tests 5.pdf (510 KB)
Herthoge tests 4.pdf (734 KB)
Herthoge tests 3.pdf (310 KB)
Herthoge tests 2.pdf (360 KB)
Herthoge tests 1.pdf (301 KB)
good luck
sounds good and all but where is the cortisol and thyroid?
cortisol is definitely too low, thyroid seems somewhat okay albeit a little bit lower than optimum
what did they say about this?
cumkwakka - I can’t really remember anything else to what I wrote above, cheers.
BTW its the 2nd day I’ve been applying Testogel and I’m getting some white powder appearing on the forehead after the gel has dried - is this a sign that it’s not absorbing properly? thanks
okay no problem
it sounds like it is not absorbing yes… i put my gel on my shoulders and it disappears rapidly without ever leaving white powder
i would try some on your back / shoulders / biceps
edit: consult your doc immediately if this is bad absorption, you might be smearing that stuff on and it may not work
to.robin, I have had luck with the Paleo diet, wil be typing about it in a separate thread as I’m studying how to modify it to increase 5AR2. We could really use your actual Adiol-G level for comparison to all of ours, please post it if you have it thanks - kazman
to.robin, I saw it, you are at 424, well below the average of 1300 (or the balding men average of around 1600). See the Adiol-G sticky for ranges.
Yur IGF-1 seems very high, how old are you? Interesting that they were looking for a 100:1` ratio between IGF-1 and IGF Binding Protein 3. Will check my ratios.
It looks like you could go through your 24 hour urinary steriod profile and calculate 5a to 5b metabolite ratios.
kazman
Cumkwakka
Thansk for the advice I am putting the gel on the side of the torso and biceps - the only significant areas without any hair.
Kazman
So you say my Adiol G is low, well I’m 41 now and very much a balding man!
I’m struggling to stick to the paleo diet, specillay leaving out my high fibre cereal -it does’nt help the constipation. It also seems like a low card diet.
I have to take new blood tests before I return to Herthoge in May, so I think I’ll wait till then for any more tests.
cheers
to.robin, a true paleo dieter would want to substitute fruit/vegetable fiber for the cereal.
The key is to blunt the insulin response, so, if you want to have cereal first consume a hunk of leftover salmon, or a few turkey roll ups, or walnuts or what have you and then eat the cereal - the protein will blunt the body’s insulin reponse. Also check out marksdailyapple.com for the Primal Blueprint, it is a little more liberal than the Paleo diet (Primal allows yogurt, butter, more fats, etc.).
If you can blunt the insulin resposne you will decrease IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor). While on the surface it is not what we want (IGF-1 raises 5AR2, it will allow GH levels to rise and thereby increase androgen sensivity, and help muscles regenerate etc.
Maybe I’m a bit impatient but it’s been 2 months and a week now on the treatment and I don’t see any improvement. The only change I think is my testicles may be slightly smaller now.
It’s also hard to find a sizeable area on my upper body without any hair. Is it posible to shave a n area of skin and then apply Testogel ?
Thanks Kazman for the advice, I am trying to stick to the Paleo diet as closely as possible and am getting used to it. As the doctor suggested I concentrate the ‘bad’ foods on one day a week, without overdoing it.
so what you can’t call your doc or email him for another suggestion?
i was on the hertoghe protocol by another doctor but since the test cream didn’t work i asked for injections… please ask for test injections and get your own hcg to keep nuts healthy
2 months without a boner is not good, i am currently doing this same routine but somewhere next week will start injections
what r u on now? symptoms now?
To.robin
Are you still of the opinion that it was stress in your life that led to the muscle wastage on fin and after? And have you abandoned the idea it was caused by high cortisol?
Dude whats your estrogen? You may have to adjust arimidex dosage. If estrogen is low, don’t mess with it…but if it’s high, you may want to consult with your doctor.
I had my 3rd visit to Dr Herthoge’s clinic, again with his assistant Dr L’Hermitte, to check on progress -or lack of it.
All I have got from 4 months of Testogel is more body hair. Erections are fine (i’m taking arimidex), but the muscle is still wasting away.
The latest bloods are:
FSH <0.5 mIU/mL (2-15)
Oestradiol 12 pg/mL (<30)
Oestrone 33 pg/mL (10-60)
Testosterone 5233 pg/mL (3000-10000)
Testosterone libre 192 pg/mL (50-280)
Testosterone liee 96.3 %
SHBG 33 pmol/mL (20-55)
Pregnenolone 3.00 ng/mL (3.90-13.50)
Androstanediol-gluc 45.62 ng/mL (3.4-22)
DHEA sulfate 394 ug/dL (85-390)
As you can see my DHT has shot up x10 and I don’t know what the benefit is. Testo has increased slighly.
So the Dr has changed me to a Testo enanthate- Androtardyl, 1 250mg injection every 2 weeks. I will also take Growth Hormone -OMnitrope, building up to 0.15mg a day. Also:
DHEA 20 mg/day
Arimidex 1/4 3 tiimes a week
Pregnenolone 100mg for 4 months, then 50mg
Carnitine 5 x 750mg
Aninogram (amino acids) 2 a day
Creatine (seems a bit amateur to me)
Vitamin E
Please ask any questions, they may jog my memory about other details I can post.
cheers
I read injectable T might be better for muscle growth than gels, hopefully this will work. Are you feeling anything from the testogel? It looks as though your total T hasn’t risen that much, maybe converting into DHT.
hgh should help wasting but is expensive I believe.
Are they prescribing HCG to stop testes shrinking?
I am following your story/ blood tests with great interest mate, and I hope you recover from all of this in good time.
As much as you probably don’t want to be reminded, may I ask how much these appointments and treatment with Hertoghe are costing? roughly.
Also, are you suffering from any other problems apart from muscle deterioration? and have you had any interesting talks about finasteride specifically? is he treating others with the same problems from finasteride?
Thanks, Joe