I’m humbled by the advice!
I was unsure about the Nandrolone -I do recall hearing of deca dick, but I thought as my DHT(Adiol-G) was so high now I had some room for manouvre.
So now I don’t know whether I’m stuck on this TRT which is not doing what I hoped, or to wean myself off it.
What do I do, experiment with some deacetylase inhibitors, get some SARMS from a dodgy website, or, break the bank to see Crisler in America +repeat visits.
I am willing to try new things, and travel -its almost the hope that keeps you going.
For god sake let’s stop seeing Chrysler - he hasn’t helped anyone. Make that the last thing you try.
didn’t you mean Ford? 
I was about to post the same message as golf. Many doctors, unfortunately, think they can beat this by raising androgens. They are fundamentally misinterpreting the problem. If we would have invested the thousands of dollars per person spent on (mostly useless) medical treatment into a fund, I am sure we would have a nice sum of money by now. A few 100K in cash would have probably gotten us further in terms of scientific investigation than we are now. Anyways, that’s just a side tracked rant.
Regarding TRT, try reducing dose and see what happens. Doing so helped me somewhat. I also have wasting and have lost more hair in the last three years than in the forty before. Also have more body hair than ever. Are you still on Testogel? If so, that is definitely the first thing you want to change: Move to injectable (Testoviron for example). Testogel converts heavily into DHT and you want to avoid high androgens like the plague in your situation. Testogel also converts more into estrogen than IM does because it has to travel through the fat underneath the skin. Fat is where much of the aromatase is located. You may also want to consider quitting TRT all togehter.
I am doing IM once every two weeks and find this a much better regimen than pounding away at the system weekly. I actually feel best in the second week after injection. You may find that this change (Gel to IM) will improve your situation somewhat. In any case, try to stay below 100mg per two weeks and see how you feel. Forget about blood tests for a moment because they are pretty much useless in our situation. Rather, go by feeling - as retrograde as this may seem. After all, if our system is not doing what it is supposed to with the hormones that are in it, there is no point at looking at them.
Don’t experiment with deacetylation agents. I have been there and done that and can tell you than it doesn’t work. Interestingly, it gives me similar sides like when I increase androgens, minus the estrogenic effects. That says worlds about our problem to the molecularly inclined. If AR deacetylation doesn’t work, I can 100% guarantee you that no SARM will either.
My hopes currently are on demethylation. I will be doing a hard core session at the end of this month. If I survive it, I will let you know what happened.
1 Like
Read my recent post in the thread; Reversing silenced AR signal with demethylating agents - A promising treatment option?
Decitabine (5-aza-2’-deoxycytidine) has been used to demethylize androgen receptors successfully and repeatedly where epigenic changes have occured (but only in cancer).
Very well said. today I spent all day digging old posts and found not a single fin user who has recovered a bit from Crisler, in some case they are worse then before.
sps
Decitabine is cytotoxic (meaning it modifies your dna) and has a serious side effects profile. Procaine, by contrast, is very well tolerated and also has a strong demethylating effect. One of the many problems with demethylating is that the body recognizes that something is missing and will remethylate. Just imagine that…
At last you realise. He improved ‘razorxtr’ a lot but he wasn’t a very severe case.
I stopped Testogel 2 months ago and have been on Testo Enanthate since. I’ve got 250mg capsules injected every 2 weeks, maybe I can get half the capsule injected each time and then the rest is thrown away.
But if the full dose has done me no good, what will a reduced dose achieve. I’m turning into a skinny werewolf with a bald head, so I’m not that enthusiastic!
I await news of your demethylating experiment awor. cheers
I am sorry but there was no need for you to go on TRT. your numbers were not that bad and alot of users agree just T is not solution for us.
sps
to.robin
it’s nice to hear GH has helped you immensely with erections!
i read this same report from postfinsufferer
what dose were you on and what time did you inject? how fast did this effect kick in (in days/weeks)?
did your sleep quality improve?
you say your erections went from outstanding to very good, which for me is a really good sign… you had no trouble at all getting it up?
hope you will recover your mass! perhaps a couple cycles of 500 mg with a hrt dose of 250 mg weekly will do you good but im not sure, stick with your docs advice first… stay away from deca!!
So its down to the GH is it! (Anyway erections were not the reason I went to see doctors, I could have lived with the way I was - 80% quality and less frecuent).
It was quickly after changing from Testogel to injections and HGH that I got these tremendous erections. I think it reduced my sleeping hours because of waking up too early with erections! - I think this has stabilised now, my working day allows me a nap in the afternoon to make up.
My dilemma is that the penis and my hair are certainly not androgen resistant but the muscles are (also brain fog, dry skin)
Yes i really think so. The other member mentioned it and i also have a report of a guy on t nation who had major success (brentf13) with HGH for erections.
This it he link:
tnation.t-nation.com/free_online … 8&pageNo=0
It is said by Hertoghe that the use of GH can shorten your sleep, in essence you sleep way deeper.
If you have the possibility, please stop the use of GH for a week and then retry, then you have confirmed it is your holy grail!
I am looking for my holy grail for ED the past 9 years, hopefully now GH will be it as i start within a couple weeks at a low dose, come on!!
Perhaps you can restore libido/ED as well to 100% instead of 80% with low dose GH.
i think the real point here is that each person has something which is not predefined wrong which may need corrected. I for example have stunningly good growth hormone levels (320+), good dht, good t, but poor adiol-g and high rt3. someone else may have poor growth hormone levels. someone may have poor blood level c and d. It is simply finding a doctor to competently test every blood level possible (at the same time) and come up with a comprehensive, intelligent treatment which will fix that weakness instead of simply guessing at what is wrong.
1 Like
What about if the answer isn’t in the blood? Doctors have probably examined a truckload full of our collective blood and didn’t find the answer yet. If our problem rather has to do with the way our body is responding to what is in the blood, you won’t find the problem there no matter how hard you look.
1 Like
Two key things about this statement are “what if” and “probably have” of which neither statement is definitive. Another is that doctors simply don’t talk to each other - so our “collective” blood means nothing. Mine has consulted no one else even though I urged him to greatly. He wants the pride of solving this situation alone, I assume. We all realize it is a safety mechanism to prepare oneself for the worse case scenario (Awor’s theory, alternative epigenetic issue, mystery issue x, etc.) but we cannot deny that there are very few users here which have had truly comprehensive (20 plus vials) of blood work all from the same doctor all at the same time (I know of only one person, and he is actually doing better.)
As much as I am intrigued by Awor’s theory, and I am genuinely hoping and looking forward to procaine working, I’m think people should still seek generalized treatment as long as it is from a doctor who can provide total, comprehensive evaluation. The logistics of saving money for genetic-level (or epigenetic level, AR signal) testing via the internet are near impossible, unfortunately - though i believe it is useful the only way to find a solution if the problem is actually genetic is to sue Merck.
Depending on the country you live in, these tests cost lots of money. I am simply questioning if we are utilizing our (scarce) financial resources in the best way possible by investing time and time again into strategies which have mostly failed in the past. If you find that I have the wrong impression about what’s being posted around here, I will be glad to learn about cases which have permanently recovered after correcting something found by standard testing. Otherwise, perhaps we should start thinking about alternative strategies, like pooling resources to get something done at a scientific level. There, of course, testing will certainly also be involved. But it will likely be more methodical than the “shot gun” testing often being practiced by clueless doctors treating guys on this board.
More importantly, a scientist will have access to assays which are not available to doctors on a commercial basis. Maybe what we need to look at is not amongst the “tick the form” tests that your average doc has access to. Also, it probably takes more than the typical 30 minute attention span you get from your doc to think about our problem and interpret the results correctly. I find this idea worthwhile discussing, albeit not in this thread. And yes, I maintain that it ain’t that easy. Our oldest cases go back 10 years. The oldest Accutane cases go back almost 20 years. We must assume that many smart doctors have looked at these people. Still, not one has figured this out yet. That doesn’t sound like easy to me. So much the more, this calls for a new approach. Don’t get me wrong, we all want to get to the same place. Some of us just have different ideas on how to get there. The point of this forum is to voice these and share experiences.
1 Like
Please fellas, I don’t want to sound ungrateful but can we keep this as my thread. As awor has suggested this discussion can be moved to another/new thread maybe in the General section.
many thanks
Hi Robin,
How are you doing? Any updates? I too am losing/have lost a large amount of muscle. Much more than i had realised.
I found some of Mew’s posts in this thread interesting; http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1593
He mentions some studies on AR mutations and partial androgen resistance.
See; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1684524/ and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC425458/
Essentially the jist of Mew’s post and the studies is that T/DHT didnt work but Metribolone aka methyltrienolone did.
Therefore an androgen resistance to one type of androgen may not mean a ‘pan-resistance’ to all androgens, some synthetic steroids may work.
If you are still losing muscle etc prehaps giving Nandrolone a go as suggested by Hertogue’s assistant isnt a completely useless idea (as long as it is taken properly like bb’s do). Or prehaps another similar steroid that is less dangerous? What are your opinions on this idea?
I e.mailed some questions to Herthoge’s clinic and got these replies:
They don’t know much about hypermethylation and AR insensitivity and have no experience of demethylating agents.
My doctor was interested to see how good my digestion and absorption of proteins is.
The lab they use can’t measure RT3 and they don’t ask for it.
She said (as we know) if you have more reverse T3,you will have more T3 receptors occupied by reverse T3 and so not available anymore for T 3.
She has a patient from Finland doing the reverse T3 testing with Genova Diagnotics in the US.
I’m not sure what the studies you post re. methyltrienolone show concerning our problem, unless its just to illustrate how different AS work in different ways.
I haven’t had an injection now for 6/7 weeks and have been feeling a bit slower lately. I was due to have blood tests now befor I return to the doctor in 3 weeks but I suppose the results will be distorted now.
Did you do this, if so do you have results? thanks