.
Well, unfortunately the Tamoxifen experiment appears to have been a failure for me, as I’ve just posted my worst T levels yet from six weeks after finishing the treatment – 10.7 (4.56 - 30). I know that T levels aren’t the whole issue to be obsessed over, and I expected the possibility of ‘more harm that good’ because I was already satisfied with my T numbers, but Christ, that’s kind of gutting.
My previous results from the same lab were 13.1 and 21.4. A different lab showed my results in the 20s before the Tamox as well, so at least I have every reason to believe that my body’s capable of producing comfortable amounts testosterone on its own, although now it looks like I have to deal with another setback. Fucksakes this shit never ends.
Haven’t spoken to Crisler yet, but either way I want to leave things as is for now and have a set of labs after another six weeks or so (three or four weeks from now) to see if things are settling back on their own. I’m trying to arrange a phone consultation in the next week or so.
I should say that, on the plus side, for the last few months or so my anxiety and brain fog issues are much more manageable. Just figured I’d post that not all news is bad.
Despite the lower T levels since discontinuing treatment, have sexual improvements remained? Morning woods, genital shrinkage recovery, numbness, increased libido etc?
No, most of the benefits I experienced while on the meds have since vanished, unfortunately. But the Tamox was intended to be an “HTPA restart” – in other words designed to ramp up T levels by stimulating LH and FSH – but since my T levels were already perfectly fine and yet I felt no better, I was not really confident in the first place that a SERM would sort me out.
I have always believed that excess Estrogen (Estradiol) has been the problem for me (and possibly to a lesser extent my always-high levels of DHT), so I’m not surprised that I felt good while on an estrogen blocker, but worse after finishing it. But now I’m going to have to wait around to (hopefully) see my T levels rise. The problem now is that I really don’t see what treatment would benefit me in the immediate scenario – I watched my testosterone go up to nearly 700 with no medication, and so I will NOT be considering TRT or HCG. So I basically am going to wait and see what the next tests tell me and then maybe (finally) focus on the estrogen if it is still a problem, as long as testosterone appears to be normalizing again.
What about you, Mew? Any improvements, and are you trying anything new?
Update for me:
After waiting a while since the post-Tamoxifen blood tests which showed lower levels of T, I am now on a treatment of Arimidex by way of Dr Crisler. Been on the arim for 3.5 weeks, at .5mg every other day. That’s actually double or triple what I usually hear people taking, and so I was surprised he scripted that much. E2 levels have always been high, although I’ve never had an ultrasensitive test done. But anyway, all of the symptoms are there, incl. some gyno (from before fin, though). Basically morning/nighttime wood is there, though definitely not full quality. But I generally feel more vibrant and horny overall, and just happier and focused, so that’s good. It’s not been a steady ride, though – for about ten days after the first week I felt like total shit. But anyway, encouraging signs at least. Wait and see, I guess.
Crisler asked me to get new labs at five weeks, so I’ll follow up then.
When i tested my hormones 15 months ago, my DHT came over the range too. My results on 08/13/07:
Total T: 551 range: 132 - 812 ng/dl
Estradiol: 35.32 range: 11 - 44 pg/ml
DHT: 1770 range: 250 -990 pg/ml
Prolactin: 21.58 range: 2.58 - 18.12 pg/ml
TSH: 2.00 range: 0.3500 - 5.5000 uUI/mL
FSH : 1.66 range: 1.37 - 13.58 mUI/mL
[b]LH : 2.79 range: 1.14 - 8.75 mUI/mL
Back then the endo said “everything seems normal”. Can you believe this? Now, that i’ve been reading and understanding more about prolactin, FSH and LH, how can a doctor say these numbers are normal?
About DHT over the range, i think the body “realizes” the cause of the imbalance in the body is lack of DHT, so it overproduces it. Maybe it is a DHT receptor problem and the body keeps producing extra DHT in an effort to achieve homeostasis. Or it could be a problem in the loop system to limit DHT production. I am getting my hormones tested again on Thursday 11/06. I ll post the results when i get it.
The latest here is as follows:
I stopped the arimidex just days after my last post when I noticed that I had developed more floaters (I had some last year from 6-oxo). I have no clue what the connection between aromatase or estrogen and eyesight is, but apparently there is one. Had one of the worst weeks ever a few days after I stopped the medication. Probably wasn’t a good idea to stop cold, but anyway. The following week I talked to Crisler, at which point I was feeling pretty good actually – morning wwods, good mood, energetic and improved libido. Just had bloods this week, 3 weeks after stopping the meds.
Testosterone 15.8 (4.56-28.2)
Estradiol 207 (73-283)
I’m surprised, though not sure why I am, that E2 jumped up so quickly. T is dead mid-range. I feel worse this week than last, but so-so overall. Not terrible. I decided I might maybe try .25mg every third day now of the arimidex. I think that if I can reduce E2 by 20%, and in this way hopfully boost T by about that much, I might have a chance. As it is it seems apparent that my T/E ratio continues to be a problem. I don’t know. I also bought some Saw Palmetto and have considered taking it in low- moderate amounts to bring down DHT a bit. I can’t believe that having massive amounts of DHT is necessarily a good thing.
Question for Mew or anyone else who might be able to provide insight or has otherwise had experience with these tests. I have had, over the last year, a good chunk of the reccommended tests listed at the top of this forum. Each time I go for follow-up tests I sort of ask for a couple more (It’s sort of a tricky situation because I get them done privately, but for free, so I don’t want to rock the boat with massive bills.) Which would be reccommended more urgently next? (Keeping in mind that I don’t think I’m too concerned about 5-AR activity since my DHT is always over the top.) The ones in bold I have not yet done:
Total Testosterone
Free Testosterone
Bioavailable Testosterone
Androstenedione
Androstenediol
DHT (not accurate compared to Adiol-G)
3alpha-diol G (Androstanediol glucuronide-- “Adiol-G” for short): metabolite of DHT, measures 5AR-II activity
Androsterone glucuronide (another metabolite of DHT that measures 5AR activity)
Estradiol (E2)
Estrone (E1)
Total Estrogens
LH
FSH
DHEA-s
Cortisol
Cortisone
Corticosterone
Aldosterone
Deoxycorticosterone
SHBG
Prolactin
Progesterone
Pregnenolone
Albumin
ACTH
PSA
TSH
Free T3
Free T4
IGF-1
CBC or FBC (Complete Blood Count/Full Blood Count)
LFT (Liver Function Tests - AST, ALT, GGT, Bilirubin, etc.)
Androgen/Estrogen ratio
Testosterone/DHT ratio
17-ketosteroids (24-hr urine sample) – labcorp.com/datasets/labcorp … 014100.htm
I should add that DHEA was just tested for the first time but I am waiting for the result.
Appreciate any input.
Bioavailable Testosterone
Androstenedione
3alpha-diol G (Androstanediol glucuronide-- “Adiol-G” for short)
Estrone (E1)
Total Estrogens
Aldosterone
Corticosterone
Deoxycorticosterone
Progesterone
Pregnenolone
17-ketosteroids (24-hr urine sample)
If they can test for this, then great:
Androgen/Estrogen ratio
Testosterone/DHT ratio
Hey thanks. As far as Adiol-G: Wouldn’t you assume that 5-AR activity is way healthy though since my DHT is always above or at the top of the range?
I’ve actually decided to start taking Saw Palmetto in a lowish dose for this. Taking 2 caps a day for a few days now. I know messing with DHT is not a popular idea, but the last time I felt normal for more than a couple of weeks was when I quit fin and, presumably, my 5-AR kicked back into action. I’m concerned that DHT at the levels I have has an influence on the HPTA and LH levels. Here’s an example of someone theorizing this:
t-nation.com/free_online_for … dback_loop
Hard to figure out how informed this is, but there’s obviouslyu some logic to it. I can’t seem to find any information in this regard not derived from animal studies. Problem is DHT – as we well know – is so little understood as a hormone. But one constant in my labs has been below-range, sometimes bottom-range, levels of LH and FSH, even while on tamoxifen. Anyway. Giving it a (careful) shot for now. I’m also taking arimidex at 1/3 the prescribed dose per Crisler (.25mg every three days) because it seems more like a common dose among people I’ve spoken with who have experience with high E2 and arimidex. The plan is maybe to take these two for three or four weeks, and if I feel any improvements, try and taper off.
Theoretical – your DHT could be from 5AR1 if 5AR2 has been “inactivated” by Fin (see screenshots):
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … =5838#5838
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1421
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1863
Also more food for thought…
So then it looks like DHT does have potential involvement in the HPTA feedback cycle. I feel weird dicking around with Saw Palmetto, but it seems like a logical option at this point. Crisler says he harldy ever tests for DHT anymore with his patients, and doesn’t think there’s much reason to be worried about it. I know it’s essentially a good hormone, but in combination with high E2 levels it might be why my testosterone has trouble stabilizing, and why I have trouble feeling its positive effects at reasonable levels.
For the record, although this may be nothing new, Crisler says that in his experience, men have to be at least mid-range or above in T to feel benefit, and the consensus appears to be that optimum E2 levels are slightly below mid-range. I’m sort of just off that mark slightly with my last test, which came just after a week where I felt relatively good in all respects. I can only imagine that T and E2 were beginning to head in opposite, and wrong, directions at that point.
First thing I want to say is that if Quint (me too), has DHT above the maximum range it means that our problem is not related to DHT.
Second. before I did any test for DHT my endo said there is no way my problems might be due to DHT (whatever it was) and almost impossible due to hormons itself (due to my ranges). There were 2 other endos and one urologist who confirmed that.
Third. If there is so high DHT level (if we believe labolatory tests) it is really high.
Just my 5 cents into this.
Well, the logic presented here is that excessive DHT levels, which we both have, might not be a good thing, and might have an meddling effect in the chain which eventually results in Testosterone. Not to say for sure that it does, but it certainly seems possible. I mean, I don’t know how uros can state this or that about DHT when the research is not terribly abundant about it, or when some of the research which Mew links us to actually argues otherwise. For as long as I’ve been getting blood tests my DHT is either maxed out or more-than-maxed. According to many endos and uros I should probably feel great. Right around this point they’d probably show me the door after looking at me like I just shit myself. Anyway, I’d kind of like to see my DHT come at least into range, or as an experiment, bring it down for a short-term and watch what happens.
I come back to the idea that the problem is rather within the neural pathways. The thing that is possible that I can imagine is that not only neural pathways are somewhat mechanicaly blocked or schrinked, but the whole whole concept of this bio-mechanical cascade of reactions is slowed down, reduced… etc. I can notice how this blockage takes place is different parts of my body. I get the restlegs syndrom and numbess of the other body parts on a regular basis, my brain is very slow, nerves seem to be blocked as well, my heart runs often into palpitations whenever I get nervous, sometimes during sleep, sleep is also pretty disturbing I imagine due to the same neural blockage, blood flow difficulties. There is not the problem with sensitivity restricted for penis only, there is a general reduction in sensitivity. I can even touch something with my finger and for sure i do not get the comparible sensation that i used to have. Emotions are also pretty much flat.
Another thing is that i didn’t really had anything like this on finasteride nor dutasteride. This is something that was evolving to where it is now. i am not surprised that this whole thing does not corespond with my DHT level, as I clearly remember I was back nomal after i quit the drug.
There may be something to all of that, who knows – I’ve never really read up much on the neural pathways, but I’m sure I will eventually. I agree, though, and I know many others here have described the same, that emotions aren’t the same as they used to be, and that I generally feel numb in a physical and non-physical sense. I have no appetite most of the time, and I mean for food but also appetite for music and art etc. like I used to. In the last year I’ve had some promising signs, though, from the experiences I’ve had on anti-estrogens.
Recently while taking arimidex, not only did I have a pretty healthy libido, erections and a way more normal ejaculate volume, but I also felt more sensitive (in that very good way) in every respect I decribe above. Better mood, dreams, sleep, freshness in mind and thought processes, cravings for food, wine and even a decent cigar(!), plus just more of a connection to things like I used to. It’s disappointing that it’s so short-lived, but it does give reason for some optimism that, if these things are all connected, they may also be resloved by one pathway. I know that when I have a good week, it’s everything at once, and when I have a bad week, it’s equally so. I mean, Jesus, finasteride caused so many different problems for so many people by targeting only one hormone (or enzyme.) Maybe the connections will some day work to our advantage. For crying out loud.
Regarding testing.
I think it would be interesting to c where your progesterone is.
Im thinking maybe the body raises prog in an effort to lower the cascade of dht and the bad effects we exp are from prog and prolly not directly from high dht.
If so maybe lowering dht with saw is a good idea, perhaps lowers prog? Any1 have prog testing while on fin and after?
Ive high prog. We have no way of measuring dht here so i dont know where mine is at 
But ive take sp every once in a while when i get prostatitis or pain or whatever that crap is. We all know what i mean no matter what it actually is.
Mew?
If u measure dht and measure T like quint did, why would u also test for T/dht ratio? u basicly know what its gonna be or im i missing something?
Keep us upd about the saw p. Im very interested in how that turns out.
I must admit that this is something that makes our cases a completely diferent thing. I used steroids for my condition including anti-estrogens. It was miserable mistake that I have done those days. Endo first refused to give me anything like this but I insisted on trying this. My Gosh, I was recovering from this mess for the next 6 months. It ruined my condition completely. It was the time that I figured out with my endo the propable immune disfunction that I have. Steroids are mostly forbidden when you have immune problems (it is only approved when the underlying condition is much worse like cancer or maybe AIDS)