My Blood Results (Quint) -- DHT/E2

Member Stories Lab Tests
#1

These are my blood test results. Can anyone offer their opinions, please?

Total Testosterone 13 (4.56-28.20)
Free Testost. 55.8 (31-94)
DHT 4787 (860-3406)
Estradiol (E2) 273 (73-283)

SHBG is pending but my last test of it two months ago was low, which is not a concern, really.

I’m quite shocked that my DHT is so high, but I doubt that’s the source of my hypogonadal symptoms as much as my near-ceiling levels of Estradiol and below-range T. Any thoughts appreciated!

5AR Promoters DHT
#2

How long have you been off propecia before taking this test? It looks like your still on something that is still possibly altering your hormones. It is important you stay clear off any supplement or even lotion/shampoos for at least 3/4 weeks.Just saying this because the only of a shampoo altered mine.

#3

Yes, your Total T seems lowish, your DHT is out of range HIGH (!) and you’re near the top of the range for Estradiol… I would think getting the Estradiol down may help bring up your T.

Did you have Prolactin or TSH tested?

#4

Nacle,
I’ve been off propecia for nearly a year, and have gone several months at a time, more than once, with zero supplements. The rest of the time I have been taking naturals like Acetyl L-Carnitine and R Lipoic acid because they seem to improve my mood, and Omega 3, etc., so nothing too suspicious, or anything that anyone here would recommend against.

More recently, though, since my first blood test in October that showed lower-than-mean T, I’ve been using the topical Dermacrine Sustain after reading about positive experiences by Big Softie and members of other boards (steroid users, though). It’s been 7-8 weeks on that with some brief flashes here and there but no major improvement yet. My test 2.5 months ago showed T at 15, and now it’s actually at 13, BUT no reference range was provided for the first (strange) and for the second, the range of 4.6-28 is lower than ranges seen elsewhere (normally around 10-30 or so), so I’m not inclined to think my T dropped. I think it probably went up slightly (the 2nd was also taken at least an hour later). Oh, and the first test was taken in the UK and the second one in Canada, if that means anything at all.

My thoughts are maybe that I have very active conversion agents transfering newly generated T into E2 and DHT…? I don’t know. Anyway, I certainly want to lower the Estradiol, and as for DHT I don’t know what to say since it should have taken a beating on Fin but has obviously rebounded insanely. Other than hair loss and prostate complication-risk, though, potential side-effects of high DHT don’t fit my profile (I mean it wouldn’t explain libido/sexual issues if its levels were high, would it?). I’m looking at natural possibilities for an AI to combat the E2, but I’ll be seeing my doc again hopefully in the next 2 weeks.

Mew,
I don’t have the results handy right now, but the prolactin and TSH levels were mid-range so I didn’t post them. I’ll post them later on when I’m home. Question, though: will lowering estradiol drive up levels of total T, or only free T, or both?

Otherwise, again, any recommendations are deeply appreciated.

#5

Eat lots of cruciferous vegetables, do lots of cardio, and shed bodyfat. Also consider a DIM supplement.

If you can, please post ALL your results.

I’m no expert, my guess is it would drive up Total T. However, if that T is being bound up by a high SHBG or Albumin, it doesn’t make any difference… it’s the Free/Bioavailable Testosterone that is perhaps more crucially important, since it is what is actively available to your body (only 2% is unbound at any given time). Supposedly supplements like Avena Sativa (“Green Oat extract”) and Stinging Nettle extract are supposed to help unbind Free T. Stinging Nettle may also lower DHT.

Where are you from in Canada? Keep us posted on the Dermacrine Sustain, or what your doc has to say about things.

#6

The DHT is ridiculously high, I think it may be keeping you from making gains on T levels by affecting the negative feedback loop. I think it’s logical that as you withdrew finasteride your body bounced back and overshot in producing 5-AR. So I believe that an attempt at naturally and gradually reducing 5-AR would be beneficial to your overall well-being.

You may want to look into taking saw palmetto along with diesel test (contains DIM along with other testosterone-boosting, estrogen-reducing, and DHT reducing ingredients). I believe that it addresses things that sustain doesn’t such as prolactin and cortisol levels.

I would definitely agree with you on looking at natural ways to fix hormonal imbalances. They are definitely much safer and less risky than using the meds.

#7

Actually I was mistaken – they were not mid range but lower-normal range:

TSH 0.950 (0.490 - 4.670)
Prolactin 7.06 (3.28 - 19.68)
Vitamin B12 337 (153 - 711)

That’s all of what’s listed under endocrinology, still awaiting SHBG, though my last test of it was 8 (13 - 71) – below range but not a worry I’m told.

From Montreal.

Oh, and I’m giving this Rebound XT stuff a try as a natural AI.

discountanabolics.com/p/AN11

People have posted good results with it. I’ve come across that Diesel Test before, though, and will look into giving it a shot next, possibly.

#8

Oh, and I also forgot to mention that I tried DIM, as well as the brocolli treatment a couple of time over the last two months with mild improvements but nothing major. I didn’t really stick with it too long since at the time I had no knowledge that I actually had high E2. I’ll get back on DIM when I get back to my supply next week. In the meantime I received two bottles of Chrysin, but I didn’t learn of its absorption issues without peperine/pepper extract until the last few days. Tried it any way, though, at four times the bottle’s rec. dose of 500mg and I noticed an good improvement in mood a few hours later and woke up with a morning wood. It could very well be just a coincidence in timing (since I wouldn’t think it would take immediate effect), but that’s the report, nonetheless.

Unfortunately, an earlier version of Dermacrine Sustain contained Chrysin, but it was removed because the designer thought it was the least necessary of its ingredients and I think upped the amounts of some other contents. I probably would have responded even better to that one. I am, though, a real believer in the product and will continue to use it for at least the remainder of the 2 of 4 bottles I have left. Of the 8 or so weeks I have used it, I’d say for probably two of them I’ve felt 65-80% normal – definite reason for some optimism. I just think that it’s something that might have to be accented with some other supplements depending on one’s specific profile. In my case, as I say above, I’m convinced that my high E2 and stellar DHT are partly on account of boosted T levels that Sustain probably provided. I’m going to try the Nettle Root (which I actually used, incidentally, for a short term post-fin to offset any ‘withdrawal’, so I have four bottles lying around – funny world), and the natural aromatase inhibitor supp I mentioned (it’s ATD-based).

And also, to Mew or anyone else: I have read that aromatase inhibitors can take longer to take effect than meds that block its detection at the androgen receptors, since it takes the liver a while to metabolize the remaining levels of estradiol already present in the blood, but I haven’t seen any info on how long the liver takes to perform this function. Are we talking days, weeks, months? I’d like to know how to monitor its possible effects…

#9

Yeah Chrysin isn’t in the sustain alpha product, I personally asked for the reasoning behind it on the anabolic minds forum you can find my post at the following link:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/primordial-performance/82565-no-more-chrysin.html

Primordial Performance’s response was the following:

Yes, we removed the chrysin and increased the dose of resveratrol and benzoflavone (since they are more effective anyway). We feel the chyrsin was limiting the formulas effectiveness. Plus, there is some research showing that it can inhibit the enzyme that converts Adione > Testosterone, so we had to remove it.

-Eric

I’ve always been a firm believer that DIM is more effective than Chrysin anyways, and the new aromatic oils ingredient that is supposed to go directly to your hypothalamus through your nose sounds like a nice addition. It’s great to see a company improving an already effective formulation The aromatic oils have their roots in south american magical rituals where one would breathe in the oils for repairing libido and fertility. You should also definitely continue using the product, since for me I started getting libido boosts here and there just like you did before I started feeling normal all the time. I can’t wait to order some of the toco-8 stuff they just came out with as well, they claim that it works synergistically with sustain to increase testosterone while at the same time having cardiovascular and hair loss benefits and I honestly believe them.

As for DIM and nettle and whatnot, I would once again suggest Diesel Test since the product contains all of what you are talking about, and the product is claimed to control prolactin, cortisol, and DHT levels as well so there should be some benefit to it. The downside is that you would probably need to take 6 pills a day of the stuff at 3 different times of the day. I can’t wait for nutraplanet to have diesel test hardcore back in stock, I will definitely have to order the stuff.

#10

Done. Have two bottles on the way (of the 2040 version). I was about to post that I can never find dealers that ship to Canada but bodybuilding.com does exactly that (and cheap). I appreciate your input as always – it was your posts that turned me onto the Sustain and the steroid forums, where there is a ton of info. As a non-interested, non-bodybuilder I honestly expected a bunch of meatheads rumbling and talking about their dicks in capital letters but there’s actually stacks of intelligent, massively informed and mild-mannered dialogue.

Looking forward to trying this stuff. Yeah and the Paravol was completely useless for me. And, yeah, I’ll always try the natural path first vs. meds and be patient, but if none of this works I might have to give a low-dose Arimidex a shake, although I’d prefer not to.

#11

Oh man you should’ve gotten the diesel test hardcore version, it is more directly aimed at testosterone boosting. The 2040 version has a lot of the stuff too but it doesn’t have as much (it’s missing some stuff like tribulus) and it has creatine in it so its more of a bodybuilding supplement than an overall testosterone boosting supplement. I’m sure you could see some benefit out of it but probably not as much as diesel test hardcore would give you for libido. I don’t exactly know what the return policy is, but if you have to use the 2040 version you might as well work out too and make use of that creatine. You can get diesel test hardcore at nutraplanet.com and for cheaper than 2040 too.

Good luck and I just want to say that for me recovery was a slow process. I didn’t just wake up one day and feel horny as hell, it took a long time for me to start noticing any overall difference, it was very subtle. I also think you kind of have to psychologically re-adjust as you’re going along with it, just because I bet you almost forgot how it felt to be horny after feeling dead for so long.

And yeah paravol is pretty much shit, that’s not to say about their other product Aspire36 though. Definitely a solid alternative to viagra.

#12

Well, the bad news is that I was nearly symptom-free for about two weeks in January after starting Rebound XT, but the last two weeks or so have been business as ususal. I had stopped Rebound eight or nine days ago.

The good news, though, is that I got my latest lab results today and my Testosterone has gone from 15.1 (9.9 - 27.1) to 23.9! (That’s roughly 683 of 282 - 797 American range). Obviously I’m very happy to see that, even if I am still experiencing the whole Fin Effect.

The other surprise, though, is the Estradiol, which clocked at 195 (28 - 156). I had thought that either I had dosed too high on the Rebound, or not high enough. I guess not enough. Or else: short-term suppression of aromatase led to increased levels of T, but which began to attract more aromatizing activity and therefore it drowned out the inhibitor’s power…? Anyway, certainly stopping the aromatase inhibitor has allowed the E2 to bounce higher than ever. (Although, these were both standard E2 tests, not the sensitive assays strongly suggested by those who understand this stuff well, so take it for what it’s worth.)

I’m considering what to do next about the E2 thing; I’m sketchy about starting this same AI supp again, not because of my own experience, but because I’ve read that ATD-based inhibitors (the irreversible 'suicide 'type inhibitor) can be counter-productive over a long term (possibly in similar ways to how fin made many of our lives miserable: by dicking around too much with Testosterone’s natural willingness to convert to other things).

The only other result I received was SHBG, which remains low at 10 (10-80).

Thoughts?

#13

I’d like to know what your LH and FSH levels are, if I’m not mistaken SHBG is supposed to correlate somehow with FSH.

#14

Just an update from me: I saw Dr Crisler last month, who prescribed me an eight-week cycle of Tamoxifen (40mg for two weeks, then 30mg for 2 weeks, then 20mg, 10mg, etc.). Roughly weeks 2-4 were like a recovery window – felt absolutely great overall, and I experienced major-to-full recovery in every symptom. Since then, though, it’s been about a ten day total dropoff. I’m waiting to confirm an update, virtual consultation in the next couple of weeks to see what he would like to do next.

My T levels had been slowly climbing for the past 8 months, and had already been in the high 600s by the time of the last test in January, so I was starting to think that my problems lay elsewhere. Crisler asked that I get tested during weeks three or four of the treatment. The results were similar: T levels near 700 (it was 21.4 in a range of 4.56 - 28). Estradiol is still high, though I am assuming the E2 test is not an ultrasensitive one, since they did not know when I asked.

Either way, I have to conclude that I do have high E2, since it has been sky-high in all of the four tests I’ve had. This obviously could be the key. Many here have speculated Androgen receptor issues; maybe there’s something to that as well for us guys who appear to have normal levels, I don’t know. But if it were a receptor problem, it’s hard for me to believe that my body would be capable of 20+ days of recovery, even considering the receptor stimulation/desensitivity theories floating around here. And I have also had good week-or-two stints before, every couple of months, from other supps. Anyway, I guess I’ll wait and see what Crisler thinks.

#15

Thanks for the update, this is encouraging news despite the “dropoff” after treatment.

Are you saying you are now back to your original crappy Post-Fin state since discontinuing the Tamoxifen?

Can you provide a bit more detail about how you felt during the recovery window? What specifically “recovered”? Libido, spontaneous erections, morning erections, shrinkage, genital numbness…? Were you horny as a dog again?

#16

I haven’t discontinued the tamoxifen – I have about another two weeks of it, and since it was prescribed at a dose diminishing over the eight weeks, and since it ‘worked’ for a while, I figured it’s worth seeing it through.

As far as the mini-recovery, yes, pretty much every symptom I had improved drastically. My main problems have been libido/ED, brain fog, anxiety and depression. All of these pretty much vanished for three weeks or so (starting at about 4 or 5 days into treatment). There were days here and there in these good weeks that were below average/shitty, but overall it was a very legit recovery period. And yes totally horny as all hell like I haven’t been in nearly a year, and one very physical measure I can always go on is volume of semen – it’s almost non-existent post-fin, but it returns to normal levels of volume during brief spots of relief. It totally rises and falls with all of the other symptoms. Anyway, volume returned to normal for most of these few weeks. Right now its like nothing again, though. For some reason that always freaks me out more than anything because it’s totally non-vague.

I’d definitely reccommend seeing Crisler; he’s a good doc, and he listens. It was just a different experience than seeing all of the other docs until now. It even took a little time to lower my guard I found, because I just was so used to people look at you like you’re fucking nuts, at the same time that they know less than their patient.

#17

And Mew, I don’t remember where, but you mentioned in some other thread that finasteride affects the Androgen ratio in favour of Estrogen. Where did you find that information? Can you elaborate a bit on what you know about that?

#18

Read through the links in this post.

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … =7182#7182

#19

Any updates, Quint? I find our cases to be somewhat similar, and I’m interested in taking the tamoxifen.

#20

Hey sorry, yeah, I have not been to the boards in a while – kind of waiting around right now with not much new to report.

Dr. Crisler had me on eight weeks of Tamoxifen, which I concluded about a month ago, and he said he wanted to see more labs no sooner than one month after finishing up the meds, so I’m going to have them done in the next week or two, since things are kind og hectic right now otherwise.

Overall, I have felt improvement in all areas, though I am still nowhere near my old self I’d say. Maybe about halfway: libido is better, some morning woods, not experiencing depression/anxiety/fogginess, but I was as recently as last week. The first couple of weeks off the meds in fact were pretty shit, but better since. (On the meds I felt pretty great, for the record.) I have always tested at high levels of Estradiol, and I think this is the problem for me, but Crisler wanted to try the tamox first because it is a less aggressive approach than obliterating estradiol with arimidex. That is what he plans to do next, though, he has indicated (if I didn’t feel longterm improvement from the tamox).

Anyway, so now just waiting to see the next labs and where to go from there. I have a feeling that my levels have all come nearer to healthy ranges over time on their own, and that waiting it out may be enough, but I’ve been waiting long enough and am willing to go the medication route as long as it’s under the close supervision of a competent doc like Crisler. Before the tamoxifen, my T levels had already come from around 400 to 680 or so, and my labs during the cycle of medication indicated that my insanely over-the-top DHT levels had calmed down into an upper normal range. Estradiol was roughly the same, but maybe like 2% less. I think that less of those two hormones will be beneficial (I know that DHT is the last thing most people want to think about or tamper with here, but my impression that DHT works with the same androgen receptors as T, so it may be detrimental to have too much…? Somebody can correct me if they know more.)

If you haven’t filed with Crisler as a doc, you really should; he is worth it, and you can arrange over the phone as a co-consultation with your local doc, so you don’t have to go see him in person (although I did see him).