M T F Tansgernder on T

General Discussion
#1

youtube.com/watch?v=2b4k5VFGRQI

Body hair growth.
Massive increase in Libido
Increase in muscle
Constantly fantisizing
Major decrease in anxiety

And what happens when I take testosterone? I have a great first week followed by feeling sick and like shit after that - At that point my siliva estrogen is over range while free T is just mid range.

I get almost no muscle gains on T at high doses 200MG a week. I only get muscle gains when I take lots of arimidex. And in the first WEEK I get muscle gains.

waiting for someone to tell me that its my neurosteroids that are stopping T from building muscle

#2

Oily face
SHaving more often too
And growth down stairs.

#3

From taking arimidex?

#4

I was referring to her.

For me when taking lots of T i get DHT effects and HIGH estrogen symptoms of cystic acne but only T effects for first week. Strngth mood, muscle.

I need to take arimidex to get the benefits of TRT back but that is a roller coaster. Some days feeling worse than ever. I think free E fluxuates a lot.

#5

Vincentv- I won’t tell you how neurosteroids are responsible if you can tell me how low testosterone/perhaps high estrogen have GREATLY depletedd levels of important neurosteroids in concert with 3 patients from the Italian studies.

#6

But that simply reaffirms Testosterone -> Low Neurosteroids. I’d be interested to know how transgender men to female transformations cope with depleted test, some of the problems would be an advantage for them, but surely they must also suffer cognitive dysfunction as well?

The auto-immune/resistance to DHT theory sounds the most likely to me. Would explain normal endocrinological results yet persisting hypogonadism symptoms in some people.

#7

OMG you are the dumbest fuck on this forum. How many times have you been told low neurosteroids is just a symptom of PFS not the cause.
You are the dumbest pal.

#8

Really Tim1911, is that why I have been asked to fund a study aimed soley at neurosteroids/neurological root cause? Enjoy being miserable, you may just be suffering from depression and not PFS

#9

And when the fMRI studies show a change in brain metabolism and excitability in the prefrontal cortex we can still say it’s not neurological. Print it

#10

Obviously hormones DO control neurosteroids levels. There is PLENTY of info on this out there.

And hormones DO control THE brain and will make changes to how the brain functions.

“OMG you are the dumbest fuck on this forum. How many times have you been told low neurosteroids is just a symptom of PFS not the cause.
You are the dumbest pal.” I have not been told this. Most people tell me its all neurosteroids

"But that simply reaffirms Testosterone -> Low Neurosteroids. I’d be interested to know how transgender men to female transformations cope with depleted test, some of the problems would be an advantage for them, but surely they must also suffer cognitive dysfunction as well? " There are plenty of studies of this. I have posted before. They lose ALL spontaneous erections and lose libido and feel like their brains have been disconected from their genitals. You will find that many have depression and you will find studies regarding a high suicide rate in this population. I have spoken to some and they are taking anti depressants etc. And as for what happens when your testosterone goes low? Take a look at what steroid users experience when they do not do their cycle properly and are very suppressed. There are many suicide stories. FTMS defiantly do not do well compared to MTFs that is for sure. There is also another factor in the equation here. I think these people have already been partially feminized or masculanized during their life hence their abnormalities in self image and attraction to the opposite sex. So they may possibly respond to hormones in a slightly different way than regular individuals. But we KNOW what test should do in BOTH men and WOMEN when it is injected.

“The auto-immune/resistance to DHT theory sounds the most likely to me. Would explain normal endocrinological results yet persisting hypogonadism symptoms in some people.” This makes no sense and I do not even think it is worth addressing. I can create high DHT action in my body on TRT, I will grow body hair like a gorilla. DHT is working in me.

When we take T we should get all the symptoms that are associated with T in both MEN and WOMEN.

Muscle growth
Oily skin
Change in fat distribution - Increase in fat free body mas
Increased well being
Decreased anxiety - depending on if anxiety has been cause by low T
Increased LIBIDO / Fantasies
Increased bone strength
Increased appetite
And of course all the subsequent changes from DHT.

#11

One study in rats?

However, we know in CSF neurosteroids and DHT are low and T and E are higher, this is typical of 5a-R inhibition.

However, the people in this study all got worse after stopping.

However, an autoimmune attack against an enzyme caused by an enzyme inhibitor, that get worse after stopping, is the only known effect of enzyme inhibitors that even closely matches this timeline and metabolite results.

Also diseases of the nervous system are typically autoimmune. And can cause problems beyond simple enzyme inhibition. And can cause neuropathy (unlike low testosterone). And the area of the brain with the highest concentration of 5a-R is responsible for libido and emotions. And this may be the reason for the strange reaction to TRT, it effect 5a-R.

However, even if you do think androgens are no longer working, things that can block the receptor like other hormones and antibodies (which can even cause hypogonadism) are worth checking before doing any more advanced and expensive studies.

#12

Hopefully paying for it is the only involvement you have in it.

#13

Oscar.

No not only in rats.

No one can even explain to me why we generally have low T and Low / mid range LH.

I have spoke to countless people who are on or who took fin for many years and kept / grew hair. They DID not have PFS! Despite serverly inhibiting their 5ar. In fact I was fine for weeks on fin so this lack of 5ar is a load of crap. My reeeding hairline came back on fin because my DHT was so low. I still had libido at that time. Since I crashed my hair IS not growing back like it was in FIN.

I am in contact with one guy who was on fin for 5 years with no side effects. Then he crashed. Now he feels shit if he is on fin or off.

If there was antibodies blocking anything surely LH would increase to make up for that.

I have injected testosterone many times. And it does wonderful things for a short period of time then eveything can get worse. And this seems to be likely to do with something the T gets converted into over time.

It is quite simple what T does in both men and females. If it is not doing things things like building muscle, making face oily, increasing libido, increasing bone strength. This is not a neurosteroid issue! It is an issue that T is not working properly and you have to ask WHY. I think you will find that by explaining the reason for why our LH is not over range despite LOW T / FREE T.

#14

Source?

Low LH is normal, high LH is abnormal. I had low T before even starting Fin. So I don’t see how that can mean much.

That’s right a lack of 5aR cant cause the worst symptoms… but in the nervous system 5aR IS effected, we know this due to the test results.

Only 3 types of illness effect enzymes, too much, too little, autoimmune. So therefore the third one on this list is worth checking out.

OK maybe. But since there are advanced studies looking at post-receptor epigenetics everything pre-receptor that is known to effect the receptor should to be checked out first. I actually think its an autoimmune reaction against the 5aR2 enzyme, and to a lesser extent the 5aR1 enzyme.

Like what? Estrogen? Take some arimidex & Serms to rule that out. I would say its because T increases 5aR.

Most people here only have sexual dysfunction or ‘brain fog’ and none of the other problems of hypogonadism. The problem is usually localised and includes numbness and orgasm problems - only found in neuropathy. Therefore hypogonadism is a red herring.

#15

I have read plenty over the years regarding how hormones influence neurosteroids. Of course when people have hormonal problems they can have severe neurological type symptoms.

Low LH with LOW T is NOT normal.

Yes I do take anti estrogens and can recover my muscle, libido, improve digestion, fix mood, morning wood. Problem is it is very unstable.

Most people here only have sexual dysfunction or ‘brain fog’ and none of the other problems of hypogonadism. - Totally wrong!

#16

Source?

I had this before using finasteride. I’m not sure how relevant it is. But I would guess its due to a pre-existing overactivity of 5aR leading to more negative feedback.

When did you start suffering from muscle wasting? And aren’t you just refer to one incident from years ago?

Well, firstly, symptoms of hypogonadism are non-specific.

But if someone has sexual dysfunction and no other symptoms of low test - that’s not hypogonadism.

Others have extreme symptoms, even with hairloss and body hair growth - that’s not hypogonadism.

Numbness and orgasm problems (neuropathy) are common - this is not a symptom hypogonadism.

And We now know [Size=4]in CSF, Neurosteroids and DHT are low and T and E are higher, [/size]this is typical of 5a-R inhibition- that’s not hypogonadism.

Therefore its something else.

#17

People on this board have fatigue, penile shrinkage, loss of morning wood, gyno, loss of bone, gum problems changes in fat distribution, dry facial skin, slow growth of facial hair, loss of body hair, loss of muscle. I do not care what you say. If you are injecting T your muscles should grow regardless of what your neurosteroid levels are. You lean body mass should increase just as it does in regular people. This applies to both men and women.

Before I took fin I could gain muscle very easy. Now it slowly disappears and is very very hard to gain anything despite perfect diet and training.

Loss of connection to penis - Loss of spontaneous erections, loss of libido happens in MTF transgenders taking estradiol. They are basically like us when it comes to libido. Well many of them.

Hypogonadism = High LH and LOW T and LOW E = We DO not have this and that is VERY clear.

Perhaps you could tell me what the neurosteroid levels are in men who take estrogens?

What else is clear is that most people do not get PFS right away as soon as their DHT tanks after there first few pills. Many here were FINE for years on fine. Then bang. Some even quit then started again and BANG. After the crash they can take fin and it does not help or make anything too much worse. Lack of DHT does not cause PFS.

My body and does NOT respond to T as it should as a woman or a man should normally respond. Muscle do not increase at their rate they did pre fin. Body fat distribition does not go back to PRE fin. Libido does not, my skin does not go oily. This is not to do with neurosteroid issues and it is not to do with lack of DHT because I grew HAIR while taking fin and my libido was fine and I felt fine too. Untill I crashed and within 24 - 48 hrs I was screwed.

Autoimmune theory is a joke too. No one can even explain why LH remains low despite most of us having low T. Some have really low T levels and very low LH levels and are showing clear signs of testosterone deficiency.

#18

I don’t find engaging in these forum wars very stimulating but I really do have to say that I find it odd how individuals attempt to discredit the autoimmune theory with statements like “I can grow body hair” or “my hair is still falling out” as though these statements somehow say anything definitive about anything at all. An allergy to DHT would not lead to the halting of ALL androgen action (neither would an allergy to 5ar). It would, most likely, interfere to varying degrees with androgen action, along with causing a host of immunological processes to occur (which would cause their own interferences. People on here talk about the lack of “electricity” in their groin when sexually stimulated. That electricity is a complex reaction that is initiated in the brain and sent to the groin. It wouldn’t be shocking that a continual allergic reaction in sex dependent tissue would interfere with those processes) As well, These immunological symptoms would vary depending on the person, as symptoms are variable in other autoimmune conditions.

But beyond that, the immune theory is literally the only explanation proposed that is even remotely plausible given what we know about PFS (or really, given what we know about human biology in general). These “neurological” or “high estrogen” etiologies seem to have no basis in science or in the evidence we have right now. I don’t want to hate on anyone here but this hunt for an answer seems to have devolved into frantic grasping of straws for some of you. The neurological theory(ies) seems, frankly, made up (I can’t find any evidence that nuclear receptors become “biased” toward or against any of the proteins they bind to, ever). The idea that high estrogen or low testosterone has caused the veins in my penis to be continually dilated is absurd (related tangent - the way in which transgender people were discussed in one of the above posts was one of the more ignorant things I’ve read lately). I won’t wade much into the androgen receptor desensitization quagmire but again, I don’t really see why a lack of androgen expression in my penis would lead to a rapid onset dilation of my veins that has remained ever since. For any of these theories to hold any water at all, it seems like they would need to explain the symptoms involved with a clear method of action, which seems to be almost totally missing in all of these discussions.

Really though, the biggest reason to explore the immune theory is because it actually makes sense in relation to the components of PFS - from the strange progression of the condition after cessation of finasteride to the wide range of symptoms that people face after developing the condition - and is an established biologic process that actually can, you know, happen.

I hate to be so snarky but this has gotten out of hand. The fact that an immune mediated etiology has not been EXHAUSTIVELY ruled out before moving to things like “progesterone receptors decided that they like estrogen more than progesterone now” is just ludicrous. People are giving both finasteride and the human body powers that they just don’t have. I suppressed DHT in my body for a total of three weeks. Not totally suppressed, mind you, just suppressed a fair amount. To argue that this has changed the way that my body processes hormones or neurosteroids or causes my body to inexplicably make more estrogen than it should (with no underlying biological mechanism to cause it) is a total waste of time.

#19

Everyone and your theories. Please answer this, why is my mental acidity getting better, why is my brain/penis connection getting better, why is my skin less dry every 2-3 months, why are my nocturnals/am/spontaneous erections getting better, why do I have sexual thoughts and fantasies almost all the time when a year ago I would have one every 2-3 weeks. You have to be able to explain the recoveries in any theory you propose, not just your own condition. Cdnuts has come on and said he is 100 percent after 5 long enduring years. Countless others have said oily face, muscle, loss of veins penis, erectile frequency and strength has all returned. Now if you think it’s really anything they did or take I think your mistaken as time seems to be the only thing in common. So please explain my slow improvements In you theories. Am I suddenly becoming less sensitive to DHT?, is my autoimmune disease going away?

#20

Mehhhh- just wait until u see the results of the fMRI studies. I can almost guarantee that our brain metabolism has been altered. Your jaws will drop. I’m actually done arguing theories here.