So, after over a decade and a half of battling with this damn thing we can say absolutely nothing about it! It’s so fucking frustrating and really unbelievable… We need to start taking some conclusions from our nightmare situations or we’ll never wake up from it.
I think where we are failing is that we are trying tontie all the conditions together as one but probably they are multiple and have multiple causes.
OK so the jist of what you’re saying is that due to a lack of 5AR enzymes, testosterone isn’t being reduced to DHT efficiently and is causing problems.
I can believe that, however I disagree that it’s strictly due to excessive aromatisation. Aromatase Inhibitors have been around for a long time and are clinically proven, yet they fail to provide any relief for the majority of PFS patients.
To me this suggests another metabolism malfunction. Testosterone being reduced to another anti-androgen that is not via aromatisation.
Perhaps when 5AR was inhibited, other enzymes were inducted to stem off the excess testosterone.
Some of us have explored the HSD enzymes, which can reduce DHT to metabolites that are estrogen agonists.
While stimulating 5-AR activity may help, I don’t think it’s the root cause. I think the origin of the problem was a reaction to 5-AR inhibition, which did not return to baseline after ceasing inhibition. Our bodies are metabolising testosterone into a form that renders androgens inactive, where and how this happens is still unknown. All I know is that any amount of exogenous androgens and aromatase inhibition will not induce my hairloss.
Im losing my hair like crazy, even worse than before pfs. However i have all typical pfs symptoms for 8 months. At this moment i am even struglling to make some theories, so complex.
Maybe methylation on androgen tissue, (but according to this theory my hair shouldnt have fallen )
maybe brain damage,
and maybe chemical changes.
I have visual snow on my vision, thats a quote about visual snow:
So i can definitely say some neurological problems are playin big part.
I am going to argue that whatever mechanisms are at work happened to everyone, even non sufferers upon the first pill.
The moment that pill is ingested it has an effect. I would ask guys on finasteride if they have lost their am erections even though they feel fine (ps that was me)
Dannyfc, I know this stuff is complicated for the layman, so you aren't yet following what I am saying, no Arimidex would not help, the problem is NOT estrogen. Estrogen is a result of the lack of 5AR enzymes reducing testosterone to DHT. The problems are from the lack of the 3 5AR enzymes!!! Each enzyme has a multitude of functions, coincidentally all of those functions coincide with the symptoms of PFS! The 5 alpha reductase 3 enzyme when inhibited causes ocular and neurological problems, the 1 and 2 enzymes all revolve around muscle, bone, libido etc..
You need enough 5AR enzymes to reduce testosterone to DHT, if your testosterone is higher than your 5AR enzymes, you will then suffer this weird crash. A condition where someone doesn't produce enough 5AR enzymes does not exist, there are conditions where people don't produce any 5AR 1 or 2 enzymes (I forget which of the 2), but not intermittently. The reason you guys are still losing your hair is because you are still production 5AR enzymes, but not enough, sometimes you produce a good amount and you get a surge in testosterone and you feel good for a day or a few days or a week, during that time your hair takes a hit.
You may be producing some 5AR enzymes, not enough to reduce test to DHT, but enough to kill off your hair, or your hair loss could be caused by secondary disorders caused by the lack of these enzymes. For example, the sebaceous glands being shut off due to lack of these enzymes could cause excessive drying which could cause hair loss.
No one will bloody listen to me, and I have managed to get this thing under control, or manage it rather, with hormones, the key is low doses of everything, very low, and igniting 5ar enzymes with low doses of HCG. Estrogen is NOT the problem, I only mentioned it as it is a byproduct of this disorder, you should have water retention from excess estrogen, anyway, everyone here seems to have high estrogen.
Also, you guys have a problem of grouping everyone together, many here may not even be suffering from PFS, or may have mild PFS, or may have simply low hormones. Others may be suffering from other conditions, or some may have PFS and other hidden conditions that are causing their problems, so grouping people is a bad idea. For example, from what I have read, many here would be ecstatic to be in my condition, but for my my condition is very much declined from what I was before all this shit went down. I have managed to maintain myself with hormones, but low doses of everything.Resistance training also does the trick I think with regards to getting these enzymes being expressed properly again:
Resistance training restores muscle sex steroid hormone steroidogenesis in older men.
Sato K1, Iemitsu M, Matsutani K, Kurihara T, Hamaoka T, Fujita S.
Author information
Abstract
Skeletal muscle can synthesize testosterone and 5α-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) from dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) via steroidogenic enzymes in vitro, but hormone levels and steroidogenic enzyme expression decline with aging. Resistance exercise has been shown to increase in plasma sex steroid hormone levels. However, it remains unclear whether resistance training can restore impaired steroidogenic enzyme expressions in older individuals. Six young and 13 older men were recruited, and muscle biopsies were taken from the vastus lateralis at basal state. The same group of older subjects underwent resistance training involving knee extension and flexion exercises for 12 wk, and post-training biopsies were performed 4-5 d after the last exercise session. Muscular sex steroid hormone levels and sex steroidgenesis-related enzyme expressions were significantly lower in older subjects than younger ones at baseline, but 12 wk of resistance training significantly restored hormone levels (DHEA: 432±26 at baseline, 682±31 pg/μg protein, DHT: 6.2±0.9 at baseline, 9.8±1.4 pg/μg protein). Furthermore, the steroidogenesis-related enzymes such as 3β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (HSD), 17β-HSD, and 5α-reductase expressions were significantly restored by resistance training. We conclude progressive resistance training restores age-related declines in sex steroidogenic enzyme and muscle sex steroid hormone levels in older men.-Sato, K., Iemitsu, M., Matsutani, K., Kurihara, T., Hamaoka, T., Fujita, S. Resistance training restores muscle sex steroid hormone steroidogenesis in older men.
I really hope your theory is correct regarding the enzyme problems. For myself, I have low testosterone and even lower free testosterone, but everything else appears relatively normal. My LH and FSH are relatively normal (maybe slightly on the low end). Does your theory explain why I may have low testosterone, but normal estradiol, TSH, and cortisol, as well as vitamin D?
Any information is appreciated as I am going to see a specialist next week and would like to be able to make suggestions.
Thanks,
Brad
I work out like a fiend at the gym, I have an amazing body, but since this went down I lost a lot of size, because on hormones I was much bigger, now putting my theories about the 5AR enzymes into play has resulted in my gaining back size. The key was finding a low enough dose of testosterone that my body could reduce to DHT with the 5 AR enzymes without running out.
I also should add I inject B12 every week, a few times a week, also I am on HGH precursors, sermorelin and GHRP2 and GHRP6, as well as the low dose of testosterone. Resistance training causing 5AR production, perhaps, but I have been working out ever since this happened and just as hard, it I am sure is playing a role in my recovery, working out is always healthy.
However, I am a man of science, and I am convinced this condition is cut and dry and having to do with 5AR enzymes, so far no one has been able to disprove my theory, I have countered everyone who has tried (even myself). I really wish people here who doubt me would debate me so that I can show how my theory is correct.
I believe HCG is very helpful by inducing 5AR, but it is not a cure, but it helps. I believe vitamins help too, I got IV vitamins from my hormone doctor and felt like myself again for a couple days. I believe the lack of these enzymes probably cause all sorts of problems.Brad, according to my theory we do not yet know if you have PFS, as I expected, many here on this forum simply are suffering from low testosterone and not PFS. You won't know until you go on hormone replacement therapy, if it works, you do not have PFS, if it does not work, then you have to find the lowest possible dose that works according to my theories.
HCG will help a great deal, why do you sit around with low T? Having compromised hormones will definitely NOT help you recover, having optimal hormones will help you recover, it will make the condition more tolerable (if you have it). I currently have my condition under control with hormones being used according to my theories (which I am now convinced is a reality). I do believe recovery happens in time, but with compromised hormones, probably not.
Brad. Why don’t you jump on HCG and TRT and report back. If you just have mild sexual sides it might help. If you have full blown PFS you would know. It’s not something your unsure of.
Your argument is essentially we have too much testosterone and not enough DHT due to lack of 5-AR enzymes.
Sorry but you’re oversimplifying the problem. We can inject testosterone. We can inject DHT. We can inhibit E2. Each of these three hormones can be controlled to varying levels, yet this does not solve the problem.
Injecting supraphysiological levels of DHT (bypassing 5-AR) does not cause me to lose any hair. That is, someone previously with aggressive male pattern baldness before finasteride no longer sheds hair in spite of colossal levels of serum DHT.
It goes beyond the basic 5-AR inhibition and it’s role in converting testosterone to DHT. If that was the case we’d have solved this years ago.
The reality is there are a multitude of lesser known enzymes and the activity of their substrates that can cause disruption in how androgens are processed.
I feel like you pretty much just said what I have been saying all along.
Dht no longer has ability to make your hair fall out because the mechanism that converts T-DHT in your scalp is “off”. In order for your body to use DHT is the same as converting it in places such as the scalp and the prostate.
Before avodart I had enlarged prostate. After taking avodart I don’t have enlarged prostate.
Why??? My DHT levels are the same before and after…
My prostate no longer uses DHT…why, because it does not make it. Why??
Because of damage to the 5 AR
In order to use it, it must make it
No no no, I keep saying that this has little to do with DHT directly, nor testosterone directly, the 5AR enzymes have functions! each of the 3 enzymes have functions, with the enzymes compromised those functions are not properly working, if 1 of the 3 enzymes produces DHT, that is fine, but the other 2 may be impaired and causing these problems. This explains why some of us have some symptoms and others other symptoms.
However, someone has posted that they have been cured with TRIBULUS, if you have been following the thread, I will post my latest research and good news about ASPARAGUS!
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The OP has proven a point consistent with my theories, that this condition is damage to the body’s ability to produce the 5AR enzymes. I have ordered the TRIBULUS, but I had my assistant pickup asparagus for me, as someone here said it helped them greatly. I investigated, and asparagus is high in Protodioscin, it all made sense now, the 2 weeks I was 90% better, responding to my hormones 90%, that previous week I had eaten a lot of asparagus! So I ate raw asparagus and I started responding to my testosterone injections as I should, this is not something that is in my mind. My muscle size increased immensely, my skin oily, water retention gone, I got hit on all night tonight, several girls hit on me, and I was asked what was different about me. Clearly, my testosterone started working consistently all night after I ate this asparagus.
So I researched further only to find that Protodioscin is a precursor of 5AR enzymes! I am posting the article below. This is not a cure, that is why it has not cured him consistently, we will need this regularly to continue to release 5AR enzymes, also those that do not have good hormone levels will need to get them optimal with HRT. So if this did not work for any of you, do you have low testosterone? I am amazed at the recovery I experienced in a matter of hours after eating Asparagus raw, a lot of them.
libilov.com/en/clinical_stud … d_1996.htm
[i]Mechanism of Protodioscin
Protodioscin acts by stimulating the enzyme 5-alpha-reductase, which plays a role in the conversion of testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (Viktorof et al. 1994). In addition, protodioscin also stimulates the hypothalamus secretion of luteinizing hormone (LH), [/i]
I have had an undoubtedly massive difference since taking asparagus. I am now on my longest upswing since this condition has started which is about 10 days. Strong Prefin erections, oily, more sexual thoughts etc. the most fascinating change has been that my penis isn’t cold or shrunken.
gotta try this,asparagus will be on my shopping list this week,how much do you eat per day???
I take a ton of it. Basically 1 to 2 full plates at night. I cook it in the microwave. I actually love the taste and I spray light butter on it as well. The difference has been incredible, if this continues we might have at least a treatment and might point to what is wrong. I can actually feel again, interest in life, pursue chicks etc.
Btw- asparagus is used to treat metabolic disorders…speeds up metabolism…sound familiar? I think our metabolism/thyroid not functioning properly is a huge problem.
I’m going to buy some later today. How much would you say you’ve been eating per day, half a pound, one pound?
Could you say which variety of asparagus is it? Because there’s green, white…
And roughly how many ? If you had a scale where you could neasure would be even better
The TRIBULUS may be an easier treatment, I am trying it, just got it today, but if you buy asparagus raw and eat it raw you get more benefits, doesn’t taste as good though, Finatruth, how long do you cook it in the microwave? I wouldn’t mind having it cooked with butter, but can’t figure out how to do that easily, I am getting tired of it raw, though I know cooked will cook out a lot of the benefits, but it should still work.
It is Protodioscin which is doing this for us, it is causing the release of 5 alpha reductase enzymes which substantiates my theories.