Hi all, many of you are aware of me, I have been on HRT before, during and after the crash, I have extensive knowledge in hormones and a good deal of medical knowledge as I was an executive of a medical anti-aging company.
I believe I now have a good idea of what PFS is based on my research and personal experiences, and the reports on this site. It is enzymic, it is an injury to the production of the 5 alpha reductase enzyme, I know this because when this receptor overload hits (which you guys call a relapse), my oily skin shuts down. My skin is super oily when I am responding to hormones normally. It has been 11 weeks since my crash and I am doing much better than most I believe because of hormones.
I have more knowledge than most here, so I have a better understanding of what is going on. It takes about 5 days to create these enzymes, here is why PFS victims respond differently to hormones. Let’s say your body has created enough of these enzymes to reduce testosterone to DHT, you inject testosterone and your body uses up its minimal limited supply (which in a regular guy is not limited) and then your receptors overload and shut off.
Now, Testosterone isn’t useless with this condition, it works intermittently, the key is to get on the lowest dose that your body has enough enzymes to handle. Please also note all of the symptoms of PFS are the same as symptoms of people who have these enzymes blocked. So the reason this condition hits sometimes and sometimes we are fine, has to do with the production of these enzymes.
Here is what I have noticed, even during a crash when Testosterone is not working correctly, it maintains muscle mass, so it is still extremely hard to build new muscle during a crash, but, while on test you don’t lose muscle. There are other benefits too, your hormone levels may be low anyway, keeping them optimal makes the condition more tolerable and easier to deal with. In 11 weeks I am 50-60% better than I was after my crash, went up to 90% and then back to 50-50%.
I am convinced it is because of these enzymes, why else would my oily skin stop when this overload happens? I also want to mention that while we are not correctly responding to our own testosterone, at higher more consistent levels it definitely makes things better over time, HCG is a precursor to 5 alpha reductase enzymes, and I have had progress with HCG on my HRT therapy. I do wonder if HCG alone with nothing else would help a lot.
I just cannot quit testosterone as I will lose all the muscle I have, it is keeping me at least where I was, when I recovered for a few weeks, I was able to build up more muscle. I am going to experiment now for the first time with a lower dose to see how I react to it. The reason many here have had bad reactions to hormones is because this condition makes it so our bodies cannot process testosterone normally because we aren’t making enough of these enzymes. The problem isn’t directly DHT, it is the enzymes, these enzymes do other things along with reducing testosterone to DHT. The 5 alpha reductase III enzyme is responsible for the neurological and visual problems guys here are having with severe cases.
Let me also add that DHT regulates Estrogen, so when the enzymes are not breaking testosterone down to DHT which then regulates Estrogen, that causes high estrogen and other side effects like a bloated face. I no longer believe external DHT will help, the key is getting those enzymes back up and producing consistently, I believe HCG is the way to do that, the only way I know of currently.
I can see how someone with PFS could get frustrated with HRT quickly, had I not been on it before, during and after, I would too, as it is unpredictable. However, it has kept my muscles, they don’t consistently look pumped up as when my body has produced enough of these enzymes, but they are there. The reason that many of you have lost hair despite this condition is because it is not consistent, sometimes your body is producing lower testosterone levels and does not exhaust your damaged 5 alpha reductase enzyme supply, at that time you feel more normal, then your testosterone goes up and the enzyme supply is exhausted and you crash.
This all fucking sucks, I do believe that recovery will occur in 1 to 4 years based on studies done with Avodart and side effects from it, seems that the severe cases recovered in 1 to 4 years. If you read recovery stories on here, its about that time frame. So there are times when you are processing test correctly and then you will lose hair etc…
I will say that because of the hormones I am on, during a crash, I do not feel as many of you do, I feel like I did before I was on testosterone, so the hormones prevent me from feeling like total garbage. My sex drive goes from a 10 to a 2 or 3, but my point is that I don’t completely shut down like when I had my first crash. I get better every month, but it is a slow recovery, hormones just make it more tolerable, whether or not they help recovery, I don’t know, I am 11 weeks out and a lot better than when I first crashed.
Let me also add that when I first inject test I feel good for the first day till my supply is exhausted of the enzymes and then I start feeling bad. When I take less test for a week I produce more of those enzymes and then can respond to test normally at a higher dose till I overwhelm the supply. This is my current working theory, I cannot see that it could be anything else, I believe at least that this is the path.
This seems very logic.
How can we test 5ar enzymes? Even if indirectly?
Can you work a few more side effects into this? Many men like myself, has developed high cortisol and we have lost (not muscle) but collagen in our lower arms and lower legs, face etc.
Search 5 alpha reductase deficiency. None of symptoms match with our syndrome, except sexual sides.
So my fingers are so boney, and theyre hurting, also my legs are hurting a lot when im tired. i think it may muscle or bone loss not collagen…
Not true depressedguy, look at the function of the 5 alpha reductase enzymes, there are 3, the third one is responsible for neurological and visual stuff, the second and first all deal with everything else, oily skin, muscle, sex drive. Not to mention that it is impossible to test for this, I went and got my levels tested and at the time I was doing good (that day) because I had injected HCG (which is a precursor to 5 alpha reductase enzymes now I find out).
So my levels came back ok, but I am sure when I go through these crashes things are different because my normally oily skin shuts down. That is a direct result of the 5 alpha reductase enzyme I not working, now I have recovered somewhat since I quit Avodart, my body is producing more than it was 11 weeks ago. The hormones are not properly working, but they definitely are better than nothing because they have allowed me to keep my muscle and when my hormone levels fluctuate they kick in and help.
I know it is the enzymes, it makes sense, nothing else does, when I lowered my testosterone injection I felt better and after a couple weeks I had built up extra of these enzymes. So I went and injected a full dose, was fine, healed for a couple weeks, then crash, why? The enzymes were exhausted, and we really don't know what happens when we don't make enough of these enzymes.
There is only 1 condition that is a lack of that enzyme and I believe it is the II enzyme, I may have them mixed up, it doesn't really matter. The point is that if you look at what these enzymes do, you will see how they are responsible for this. I know this is the disorder, I know for a fact because of my severe oily skin shutting down as soon as one of these crashes takes effect. They are not random crashes, I thought they were, but now it makes sense.
I plan to lower my testosterone to a lower dose to see what my body can process, also, when these enzymes reduce testosterone to DHT, that’s where we get all the feelings we are missing or lacking. I know this because I have been going through a hormonal roller coaster for 11 weeks now. Just when I think I am healed, I up my dose, I am fine, but not like before, but 80-90%, that is because my body isn’t processing the test like it should be. So DHT regulates estrogen, when these crashes hit I get water retention in my face like I used to get from fucking Finasteride.
It makes sense when you think about it, there may be other aspects to this, but I am pretty sure this is the problem. Someone like me who has super oily skin can see immediate physical effects that show me this is not in my mind, and that it is not something else. Oily skin is directly caused by that enzyme, that is why I took Avodart to begin with and now here I am. I do believe HCG will help, used alone, I am just not willing to quit testosterone, it has some effects without these enzymes properly working.
Finatruth, the problem is, Finasteride has probably wrecked your hormones to begin with, so not only are you unfortunate enough to be suffering from this condition, but your hormones are probably low as well. So I am remodulating my theory to HRT not to cure this condition, but to ease the suffering of the condition. You may be suffering from secondary conditions, who knows what the lack of these enzymes do, they are responsible for so much.
When I was reading about the 5 alpha reductase III enzyme I saw how it explained all the neurological sides here. On the other hand, after 11 weeks I have recovered a lot better than most here, not to where I was, but what many here would consider normal and good. I attribute that to the HRT, I agree, HRT doesn't work right for people with this condition, but I am going to do what I have never done, lower my dose of test. I was always afraid that things would get worse, but now I see the pattern and the cause.
Every time I inject HCG I feel better for about a day or two or 4, it depends how much testosterone is in my system. Now I realize the more testosterone, the more it will exhaust these enzymes, so the path is to get testosterone within the range that we have enough enzymes to process. HCG will do that because it will cause more 5 alpha reductase enzyme creation.
There is a possibility that hormones may help kick start the body back, because these hormones do induce 5 alpha reductase creation, for all we know, that is why I am doing better than everyone else. Had I not been on hormones BEFORE this happened, I would definitely have quit them, but I am aware of what they are doing that would not happen if I were off them. I built up a lot of muscle before the crash, and when I recovered for a couple weeks, the test is allowing me to at least keep what I have.It would absolutelly amaze me that even such a banal hypothesis (low 5ar is cause of pfs) hasn’t been ruled out by now… Can anyone give me some confirmation… I know there is thread about 3 adiol g (which is indicator of 5 ar activity) with test results… Does all people who have measured it have low results ?
Johnny5ar, I am almost certain this is the problem because in my rare case I have extremely over active sebaceous glands. I took Avodart to shut down my oily skin, it worked! The only problem is I failed to factor in that that oily skin goes hand in hand with my ability to gain muscle quickly and everything else bla bla bla…
So when my crashes occur, my oily skin stops, also my body acts like the enzymes are being blocked as I suffer water retention issues which tell me these enzymes are not breaking down testosterone to DHT which then regulates estrogen. Why would there be any tests for these enzymes? Everyone is only interested in blocking them for hair loss, prostate issues etc…
I only found one study where HCG was able to induce the release in rats which explains why I feel better after HCG injection. I believe that many here not only are suffering from PFS, but older low hormones, I know personally that going on the standard dose of testosterone will have a reverse reaction. However, a lower unconventional dose is different.
I have an appointment with my HRT doctor monday, if I were you guys, I would be ordering injectable HCG online and injecting it. It is healthy, harmless, boosts natural test and the 5 alpha reductase enzyme as well as burns fat. You can buy a 1 month supply for $150 online in europe and different places, not hard to find.
If this condition isn’t the body unable to produce enough 5 alpha reductase enzymes, then someone come up with a better explanation, because I am certain this is the case. You block them, and in some people, the whole system shuts down, but not completely. I am producing some, just not enough to reduce the amount of testosterone I am taking to DHT, I will report back when my dose is lowered. Tomorrow I am supposed to inject, I may skip and wait till next week, that was how I felt recovered the last time.
CONCLUSION, I believe I am onto a conclusion here, I believe at this point that PFS is an injury to the 5 alpha reductase enzyme creation. Once these enzymes are either blocked or not being manufactured enough, we crash. It takes 5 days to create them, we store up a supply, a surge of testosterone hits and we feel good at first till the enzymes are used up to reduce testosterone to DHT. The DHT regulates estrogen, when we run out of these 5 alpha reductase enzymes, our body is no longer converting testosterone to DHT, the result is low DHT and high testosterone which is then being aromatized by the body causing high estrogen levels.
When I inject testosterone, I could not understand why at first I felt good and then at the peak I crashed, then felt good as the testosterone was low on the 5th day. I know now, testosterone injections hit you hard with a high dose that then levels out, in normal men they produce lots of 5 alpha reductase enzymes which reduce the testosterone to DHT. There are 3 enzymes, 1, 2, and 3, 3 is responsible for visual and nuerological stuff, 1 and 2 for muscle and libido and sebum production, probably collagen is affected, we don’t really know what happens when all these enzymes are blocked or they are not being produced enough or normally.
So I felt cured only 1.5 weeks ago, for 2 weeks, the week before that I took half a dose of testosterone, my body was able to handle it, I had enough enzymes, they were not exhausted. The supply was able to replenish, and I felt good, then I injected a full dose the following week and felt a huge amazing DHT feeling for 2 weeks. I exhausted my supply and felt a crash, I am feeling testosterone again on the 6th and 7th day when it is low, but my body has been able to produce enough enzymes to reduce it to DHT.
If tomorrow I inject a full dose, I will feel great for a day or two till I run out of the enzyme, I do know I am much better now than I was 12 weeks ago when I crashed first. I have been progressively getting better thanks (I believe to HRT). HRT does induce the creation of these enzymes, I might also add HCG is a precursor to 5 alpha reductase (at least in rat studies), it is always after I inject HCG that I feel good again.
Reports of HCG have brought improvement in some guys on here I hear, one said it cured him, the key to getting better may be to induce the system to create more 5 alpha reductase enzymes. The only way I know of is HCG, then a low dose of testosterone, not enough to overwhelm the body’s compromised ability to produce the 5 alpha reductase enzyme. Many men here have low testosterone, but if they go to get it treated, they will get a dose too high to help, their body will reduce it with all the 5 alpha reductase enzymes they have, they will feel like shit when they run out, or feel nothing, and quit.
However, what if you guys go and get on hormone replacement therapy, if your testosterone levels are normal, just use HCG, if your test is low, go on HCG first and then when you start to feel it, you can go on a low tiny dose of test, till you find the dose your body can handle every week. It may be that HCG alone is enough for most of you, HCG boosts natural testosterone production, but it is the 5 alpha reductase enzyme that is the key here.
I believe that I can control PFS, so far I have been able to, I do believe hormones may lesson the amount of time it takes to recover. Many of you know that I am the only known case that was on HRT before, during, and after the crash. It shut off my hormones from working at first, but it was after I took a lot of Avodart, it blocked the 5 alpha reductase enzyme. I kept taking a normal dose as my HRT doctor told me, every week, getting a little better every week slowly as he said.
During that time I experimented with lots of hormones and doses, I have access to a lot of stuff and have extensive knowledge in hormones and well versed in medicine. I am the former vp of a very famous anti aging and cosmetic surgery company. Whenever I injected low doses I felt great, but then I wanted the full dose feeling, and I would always crash when I did that. My hormone doctor agrees that I should try a low dose, or skip a week, I already know that will work, I believe I found a way to manage this condition, as you recover your ability to produce these enzymes, you can handle more testosterone.
Whether HRT will help PFS recover quicker or not is speculation, but it will make you feel much better when done as I say, I can attest to that myself. Praying to Heal can as well, tell me guys, what do you think of this theory? If this isn’t it, I can’t imagine what else could be.
Minocycline (common antibiotic) stimulates 5-AR synthesis. This study shows as much as 80%, and uses finasteride to counter it’s stimulation.
libgen.org/scimag/index.php?s=10 … %2900143-0
Unfortunately I’ve taken Minocycline for two months with zero improvement.
Because pfs isnt about 5ar deficiency.
http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2763&hilit=3+adiol+g
Yes, it seems like everybody who was able to get tested had low levels.
Not true. Scaredoutofmymind had normal levels of 3 adiol g.
in Gingival fibroblasts in the mouth, not in the body, read about it, the tissues that surround and support the teeth are called the periodontium.
Minocycline does not increase 5AR activity in the body, HCG does though, and yes this condition IS a 5 AR deficiency, I have been able to control and manage this condition by increasing 5AR and using only enough test that my body has enough 5AR to reduce. It is no longer theory, I have put it to practice and it has worked, it explains a lot.
This condition isn’t inconsistent, we have a compromised system at producing these enzymes, when we built up enough we feel better, when we have a surge of testosterone, we use up all our enzymes and suffer a crash. That is why HRT therapies have worked only for short times in PFS men and then they crash, the key is increasing 5AR activity and only using enough test that your body can process, a low dose.
Ok, so one person. How many are on the list that have low levels? Twenty?
Edit: 31, actually.
31 low and only 1 normal?
Vitamin d was also very consistently low…
Would be helpful to have this data easily accesible somewhere
I wonder does low 3 adiol g EXACTLY MEAN low 5ar activity?
You guys, trust me, it is a problem with 5 AR enzymes, just read what each enzyme does, I know it is the 5AR enzyme because of the reason I went on Avodart, and the side effects from Avodart, then later from PFS. Also, the fact that I figured out how to make HRT work, and why sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn’t. You build up 5AR enzymes, it takes about 5 days, I built them up, then I would inject testosterone, a normal pretty good dose (1cc). I would always feel good at first (except for a couple months after I crashed the first time), then a couple days after (when test was at its peak) I feel crappy as my body uses up all its 5 AR enzymes to reduce test to DHT, once these enzymes run out strange things start happening.
Along with the standard PFS symptoms, my extremely oily skin stops and becomes normal, my muscles lose their testosterone looking pump, I start to retain water as my body is not reducing testosterone to DHT, but aromotizing what’s left and I get some water retention in my face. I am familiar with all that is going on because I have such a sensitive system.
So a lower those of testosterone after a week off then works, I believe in time I will produce more and more 5AR enzymes till I am recovered. I believe this is what has been going on with people, these enzymes do other things besides just reduce test to DHT, the III enzyme has a lot of visual and neurological function. the 1 and 2 are responsible for muscles and libido and oily skin etc…
The reason you guys are still losing hair is because your body builds up some 5AR enzymes to reduce the test and then your hair gets hit, but I would venture to say the guys with SEVERE PFS and no positive symptoms, probably don’t lose a lot of hair.
When my skin gets oily and my face tightens up, it all happens when I start feeling DHT again, and that is because I have accumulated enough 5AR enzymes. So the key is to build them up for a week or 2 and then take a low dose of test, and stay on that low dose, you have to find a dose low enough for your body to be able to reduce to DHT.
It is clear to me what this is at this point, the path to getting better is causing 5AR activity to increase, HCG does that, depressed guy, why the hell don’t you order it online and try it for a month? What do you have to lose? You seem to be the most unhappiest person here, buy the damned stuff and try it, you have NOTHING to lose, things cannot get worse, and I promise they will get better.
I always felt better after HCG injections, never could quite figure out why, till I ran across the study I posted which stated that HCG was a precursor to 5AR activity in rats. I have tested my theories, the 2 weeks I was 90% better followed a week I did only a half a dose. I thought I was recovered, then right before the second shot on the second week I crashed. I couldn’t figure it out, then it hit me, I have been able to test my theories and put them into practice and they have coincided with what I am saying. HCG produces 5AR which then reduces test and you get the good feelings and all the symptoms go away.
Naturally it will boost your own testosterone as well and a nice dose of HCG should be enough, but when on testosterone it is different, depends on how much 5AR you are producing. Normal men seem to produce unlimited amounts, I do believe HRT can get the system back up and running again. I have already demonstrated that, I felt crappy more than I felt good till I figured out what was going on. I don’t know if HCG will work for everyone, or that everyone can get their 5AR back up and running, but I do believe it should and they can. I believe the guys doing the worst have compromised hormone production, some with good hormones that are doing bad will state that they have gotten better and relapsed. That is because their testosterone was low and they built up more 5AR and then it reduced their testosterone when it surged. Or perhaps something they did or took induced 5AR production.
When I am feeling better the way I check to see if it is in my mind or not is by looking at the physical symptoms, but I have found that HCG seems to be able to produce more 5AR and alleviate my symptoms and make me feel better. The key is finding the right doses of everything, but they are low, and perhaps can be increased in time perhaps as we recover more.
emedicine.medscape.com/article/924291-workup
Check the above article out, HCG is used for a 5AR deficiency in humans with the genetic deficiency disorder.