Joint pain

Also, the blood test all depends…

if you are testing kidney function problems, I think the blood tests should pick up any major kidney issues (kidney disease), even better than the liver function tests do.

However, if you are testing uric acid levels, those are constantly changing. You could suffer from hyperuricemia and yet have completely different pH / acid readings depending on when you do the blood test and what you have consumed.

I’ve noticed that after I sleep and wake up in the morning, I usually feel okay. But by the end of the day I feel awful, and I often wake up in the middle of the night dehydrated, needing to urinate, and/or with shooting pain in my foot. Other than gout, I really don’t know what would cause these symptoms… (I’m going to the doctor tomorrow morning)

My joint pain has gotten considerably worse over the past year. I first started having pain in my left hip joint a year ago, which was 1.5 years after I had gotten PFS. Now, a year later, I have pain in most joints of the body - hips, knees, shoulders, fingers, feet, heels, elbows… My mobility is compromised and not only can’t I do any exercise but also I have to limit my daily activities. Sitting on hard surfaces is painful too.

Is anyone aware of the mechanisms through which PFS may cause joint pain? Alternatively, what are some possible causes of joint pain that may be consistent with PFS? Also, how is joint pain explained in other chronic conditions such as post-menopause or low testosterone and is the effect established scientifically?

I can think of two possible reasons. One is that a change in androgen levels or androgen sensitivity leads to atrophic changes in ligaments in the bursae that hold joints together. Another is through kidney damage from finasteride, about which there was a paper recently, and subsequent accumulation of uric acid crystals in joints.

Has anyone recovered from extensive, late-onset, PFS-related joint pain?

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Hey Sibelio,

I actually recovered from joint and muscle pains that began after starting Accutane in 1998, but the recovery didn’t begin to occur until 2013-2014. Just saying it is possible.

Can’t offer my “treatment protocol” because it was more or less a spontaneous recovery.

All I can think of is improving my diet to include more vegetables beginning in 2010 and regular exercise from 2013-present somehow helped. Who knows.

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“That said, scientific studies conducted in recent years seem to indicate a much more significant and direct correlation between testosterone and joint pain. These examinations revealed critical findings, such as the fact that testosterone stimulates the production of substances known as chondrocytes (which are said to play an important role in cartilage repair); could, in some cases, completely reverse degenerative cartilage problems and reduce chronic back pain when injected in therapeutic dosages.”

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"In this study, Swedish researchers analyzed blood samples collected from 104 men who were later diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis and 174 men of the same age who did not develop the disease. The average time between collection of the blood sample and a diagnosis of rheumatoid arthritis was just less than 13 years, but ranged from 1 to 28 years.

After taking into account known rheumatoid arthritis risk factors such as smoking and weight, the researchers found that men with lower testosterone levels were more likely to develop rheumatoid arthritis. They did not, however, prove a cause-and-effect link between the two.

These men also had significantly higher levels of follicle stimulating hormone – a chemical involved in sexual maturity and reproduction – before they were diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis, according to the study, which was published online April 3 in the journal Annals of the Rheumatic Diseases .

The findings suggest that hormonal changes occur before rheumatoid arthritis develops and could influence disease severity, the researchers said in a journal news release.

Rheumatoid arthritis results from the immune system attacking the body’s own tissues. Previous research suggests that testosterone may dampen the immune system, the researchers said."

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Does anyone else have extreme joint pain? Right now I can barely leave the couch, let alone the house. My hip joints seem to be severely inflamed as I feel sharp pain with every movement. How much worse is this going to get?!

Has anyone with severe and persistent joint pain seen any doctors for it or run any tests such as MRI or x-ray or blood tests?

I recently had a rheumatoid arthritis panel done and had my rheumatoid factor IgG elevated. It might have been a temporary thing because I had been sick recently. Might have to repeat it. I haven’t been to a doctor yet.

Rheumatoid factor IgA – <0.1 U/ml (Up to 20.0)
Rheumatoid factor IgM – <0.1 U/ml (Up to 20.0)
Rheumatoid factor IgG – 29.8 U/ml (Up to 20.0) ELEVATED
anti CCP – 11.9 U/ml (Up to 20.0)
anti MCV – 4.5 U/ml (Up to 20.0)

My hips make me scream in pain. Can’t even use the stationary bike anymore. The pain is easily made worse by even going for a walk.

I should have gone for Medical school because I have a sea of knowledge regarding joint pain :stuck_out_tongue: ok so there are several possibilities, among which:

  • Low E2. Check your T and E2 levels because low estrogen can cause this issue.

  • High Uric acid. Check renal function via SMAC-20 test.

  • Immune system disorder. This usually causes inflammation in form of rheumatoid arthritis or allergic reactions resulting in joint pain. You may have Th1 / Th2 shift.

  • Low Cortisol. It leads to further inflammation. Check your Cortisol & DHEA levels.

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I’m pretty sure I’ve problems on Estrogen Receptors. My joints are clicky and weak. I feel pain every time I try to move. My skin and my eyes are very dry.
But worst symptom, for me, is brainfog. I could live with all my symptoms (no libido, no erection, joint pain, muscolar pain, dry skin, penile shrikage), but I can’t live without my cognitive abilities. I can’t remember how I’m dressed or shaped. It’s the hell.

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You should try transdermal DHT or Proviron. This is what keeps me joint pain free. I also posted a paper which explains the putative mechanism behind this:

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How could I even get these things tested during the covid outbreak and the impending breakdown of the healthcare system? My doctor wasn’t even willing to help me get a basic hormone panel done before. Now all doctors visits will be done over the phone. Soon they’ll all be marshalled to work in hospitals.

I did read your highlights of some of these studies but without the ability to test my hormone levels, I am wary what could go wrong. Especially after reading that you crashed from stopping DHT cream. Have you recovered from your abrupt discontinuation of transdermal DHT?

Question, though. I have pretty severe shifted circadian rhythm/delayed sleep phase disorder and I regularly dont get any sunlight for months despite still supplementing with D3. I am pretty sure that would be a large contributing factor for me, right?

Tell me about it. I too was scheduled for a surgery to have titanium screws removed but it got cancelled. Thanks to Covid-19! We’re at the bottom of the list on normal days let alone during these times.

I have not recovered at all but such a crash is unlikely to happen with smart systemic administration for two reasons.

First you will increase serum concentration only slightly with the transdermal formulation. My DHT rose from 175 pg/ml to 600 max (Ref: 300-850) and currently it is most likely 450 max. You don’t need to use too much to get an effect on joint pain.

On the other hand, local tissue concentration is supposed to be ten times higher than in serum so most likely my values rose from close to zero to many thousands of pg/ml equivalents when I used it locally.

Second, you are not going to stop abruptly like I discontinued the cream…

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You could try with AndnroHard. The main component is Androsterone, which is a 5a-reduced DHEA, which will convert to DHT.

You can also get Androsterone from here:
http://www.idealabsdc.com/lab/

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I have the same but this is not a disorder. It can be fixed.

Before you take anything, check your hormones! You wouldn’t want to take DHT cream if you DHT is out of range high, also check really good how the other meds, you are being offered to try, are affecting the body as you might have really low E2 which results in join issues and the medicine you tend to take lowers the E2 further, which can fuck you up further, but you wouldn’t know it if you don’t run the tests for that…

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Thank you. I was just about to ask about needing prior bloodwork to messing with exogenous hormones. Androsterone is also a potent aromatase inhibitor so wouldn’t that potentially cause serious worsening of joint pain?

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