JN's story -- former 2001 Yahoo Group Member

Yep, I can make the following observations with my recent trials and tribulations with copper, zinc and copper:zinc ratio.

  1. Copper and zinc are the most potent variables I have messed around with throughout the duration of my suffering. I’m pleased I placed these parameters in blue.

  2. The copper:zinc ratio is extremely important

  3. The dose of each is vital, as is the time of day of administration. If one is to read the internet, one will read many statements such as ’ 220mg of zinc will give you a great night sleep’. This is not always true, because these people aren’t messing around with copper as well, or may be not talking about zinc replacement long term. (IMO, they should be considering their copper levels, and should be replacing zinc long term!).

Roughly, I have been taking 8mg copper in the morning and 90mg zinc before bed. Importantly, my sleep has worsened. After much experimentation (and I tell you, some very dark moments where I have doses and times horribly wrong, and consequently felt AWFUL), I theorise that my copper is peaking too late in the day and at night, and that it is the high copper causing disturbed sleep.

From today my copper/zinc protocol is:

8mg copper in the morning at 7am
90mg zinc at 4pm.

I think this will serve me better, allow me improved sleep, and improve all symptoms.

As it stands, I’m doing very very well and believe that I could be very very close to the full cure by the end of the year, probably a touch after.

Laters, enjoy

JN

PS, I’ll formulate a thorough management plan related to the 18 points, in the near future, when I have time. Laters

Thanks JN I am very open minded and read your posts with great interest, I look forward to reading the management plan. Cheers

So, do you expect to be messing around with copper and zinc intake for life now?

Haha, actually I was wondering this myself! I don’t, no! I don’t think the balance is that fine, to be honest. In truth, I think it takes me more copper than the average person to get to an optimal level.

Every time I take a copper tablet, I feel better. My actions are somewhat limited by Dr Emerson’s statement to me that it would take between 4mg and 8mg copper per day as maintenance. Well, I can safely say I feel like death on 4mg per day. 8mg per day; I feel pretty good. I’m now moving up to 10mg per day. I’m in control.

Please be patient with me (I often get impatient with myself).

Laters chaps, hope you’ve all done your parasite and yeast testing!! haha

JN

Per JN’s advice to pursue the underlying causes of adrenal and thyroid issues, I thought this description of adrenal fatigue fit very well with range of PFS symptoms. The idea that we’re in a perpetual “fight or flight” stressed mode where immunity is strained and sexual function is sacrificed is one expressed by another doc I have seen. The propensity for infection and malaise is very congruent with a lot of peoples’ experience, and the concept that JN and IHP and myself have advocated, which is that we’re in a compromised immunological state, induced/triggered largely by the burden of finasteride, a steroid medication. Thus, all the things that JN refers to are very plausible (pathogens wreaking havoc, causing inflammation, etc.)

Adrenal Fatigue
Fatigue, depression, low blood sugar, bone loss, muscle loss, irritability, anxiety, intense stress response, dizziness when standing up, mineral imbalance, frequent infections, long infection recovery, reproductive issues, hormone imbalance, skin problems, and sexual dysfunction, infertility and severe peri-menopause can all be due adrenal fatigue.

The adrenal glands sit on top of each kidney. The goal of the adrenal gland is to moderate the “fight or flight” system, which includes the stress response, sugar balance and mineral balance.

The adrenal gland’s main goal is to stimulate your body to be able to “fight or flight” from danger. This “fight or flight” response (sympathetic nervous response) speeds up heart rate, dumps sugar into the blood stream, mobilizes energy stores and slows digestion. This response is necessary so you have enough energy to run away from danger.

The adrenal function works in two phases. First adrenaline is released from the adrenal gland. We all know the feeling of adrenaline, that “speedy” feeling that happens when we are suddenly stressed, such as the sudden awareness that happens during a car accident or the shortness of breath that happens when we think we are in danger.

In about one minute, adrenaline is replaced by the hormone cortisol. Cortisol lasts for a considerably longer time in the system (hours instead of minutes). Cortisol helps convert protein into sugars to feed the brain, slow digestion, increase heart rate, sharpen senses and inhibit thyroid function, thereby changing most of our body systems. By the way, when we diet, we tend to trigger a stress response and break down muscle before fat, for this very reason!
The 'fight or flight" nervous response is supposed to be activated when we are in danger. The system overrides all of our body’s processes. This override isn’t meant to last long. In our present state of society, we are always busy and stressed. We are over worked, under-nourished, constantly bombarded with chemicals in our food and environment and worrying about ourselves, others and money of course!
This constant stress wears away the adrenal’s ability to manage an appropriate stress response!

There is a variety of factors devastate a healthy adrenal response. Examples are coffee or other foods with caffeine, a diet high in high carbohydrate with and low in protein and fats diets, yo-yo dieting, hormone treatments (including steroids, the pill and estrogens), lack of sleep, stressful jobs, a demanding family, taking care of our ill loved ones, digestive problems, over-exercise, illness, chronic infections, emotional issues, toxic environments or toxic exposures, processed foods and lack of specific nutrients such as B vitamins.

When we were stressed occasionally, the stress response would be useful. When we are stress frequently (more than 2X/day), then our stress response fatigues and your body functions suffer.

The long-term consequences of constant stress on our system are the constant release of cortisol and eventually the destruction of our health and loss of our recovery ability. Eventually we can’t even mount a stress response and have a full adrenal crash. Total adrenal failure is a medical emergency, but there are several measurable degrees of adrenal fatigue before adrenal failure.

Examples of the destruction from adrenal fatigue include:
Muscles don’t regenerate and are lost to provide sugar to the brain.
Higher blood sugar leading to sugar crashes and eventually Diabetes type II.
Changes of mental awareness leading to fatigue, depression, anxiety and memory loss.
High cholesterol and lipids. This is the body’s attempt to help the adrenal gland make more cortisol and the hormone precursor DHEA.
Decrease in speed and ability to heal.
Lower immune function leading to more infections, shingles and slower recovery.
Loss of the steroid hormone precursors DHEA leading to low testosterone or imbalanced estrogen and progesterone levels. These hormone changes are often seen in women as significant peri-menopausal symptoms (hot flashes, insomnia, seating) or PMS symptoms (bloating, sugar cravings, emotional changes).
Poor digestion from the constant decrease of metabolism. This tends to be seen as weight gain or severe weight loss.
Uncontrolled stress response with exaggerated symptoms. People will often experience anxiety, depression or physical shaking for a period of time after a stressful situation or sugar crashes. People will also start to perceive situations are more stressful than they need to be, due to the exaggerated responses.
Fibromyalgia which can be pain in the body due to stress, mineral imbalance and poor immune function
Hypothyroidism due to the inhibition of thyroid hormone activation and also suppression of pituitary controlled release of hormone from the thyroid.
Chronic fatigue from the constant stress stimulation and insomnia. You wouldn’t want to sleep if you needed to run away from a tiger, but you also wouldn’t want to be awake for years.
Arthritis from the unregulated inflammatory pathways.
Peri-menopausal symptoms from the imbalance in hormone production.
Acne from imbalance in hormones and poor immune response.
Hair loss from imbalance in hormones and damaged immune response.
Immune imbalances and decreased immune function. Note: cortisone and hydrocortisone therapy stop inflammation or stop asthma as an immediate and dangerous treatment. The body uses the same hormone (cortisol instead of hydrocortisone or prednisone) that will shut down immune function long-term. The body needs to stop infections with inflammation and immune response.
Osteoporosis due to the adrenals glands role in mineral balance (through hormones called mineral corticoids).

Adrenal fatigue is a widespread and rampant problem in society. Unfortunately conventional medicine disregards this problem until it’s a severe medical emergency. The reason for this is that conventional medicine focuses on disease states. The “disease state” of the adrenal gland is adrenal failure, an emergency situation. The slow degradation of adrenal function is entirely overlooked. Lab tests available to most conventional doctors do not account for variable adrenal function. Conventional medical lab tests only measure if the adrenal gland is extremely high functioning or not function. The test also don’t account for the natural changes of adrenal function throughout the day.

The best way to determine adrenal function is to test cortisol at a variety of points through the day and use this information correlated to DHEA levels, intestinal antibody levels, progesterone and insulin. This lab test doesn’t exist in most conventional medicine mindsets. Fortunately endocrinologists are starting to look at adrenal function in relation to thyroid and sexual issues. Naturopaths have been treating this problem for years, with great success.

Fortunately there is a test that comprehensively shows adrenal function. The lab test is a salivary test and is available though Steve Clark, ND. Phone appointments or written descriptions for treatment options are also available, depending on test results.

Naturopaths focus on helping the body heal itself. We focus on finding the cause of your pathology instead of dealing with the diseases. It’s far more effective to find and treat an adrenal problem instead of treating each of the symptoms. hormone problems, osteoporosis, fatigue, stress, slow recovery, and infections.
The adrenal glands fatigued in a predictable pattern. First there will by an overproduction of cortisol creating insomnia and high stress levels. Eventually the cortisol levels will either crash or be high erratic.

You should consider adrenal testing and/or treatment if you have energy crashes during the day, feel emotionally imbalanced, sleep poorly, maintain excess weight, have a history of yo-yo dieting, experience sugar crashes, experience dizziness when you stand or change position or you need caffeine or sugary things to get you going.Yup sugar-addicts are often have adrenal fatigue.

You can heal adrenal function. You don’t have to live with the symptoms you have, or wait until you get worse. You can restore adrenal health with the appropriate diet and supplemental regime. You have the option to do a salivary test, and have a personalized protocol to address your adrenal glands. You can also try the recommended products and judge your recovery from the reduction in your symptoms.

Copyright © 2006 Steve Clark, ND
webmaster@steveclarknd.com

4x a day saliva cortisol testing is what we all need to investigate adrenal fatigue first of all. Surely we have got a thread where people have compiled there results for this test?

Those descriptions of adrenal fatigue are all the same on every website. It all makes very good sense but at the same time, if this type of stuff causes severe adrenal fatigue then why is everyone around me that does almost all of them humping like a rabbit?

“There is a variety of factors devastate a healthy adrenal response. Examples are coffee or other foods with caffeine, a diet high in high carbohydrate with and low in protein and fats diets, yo-yo dieting, hormone treatments (including steroids, the pill and estrogens), lack of sleep, stressful jobs, a demanding family, taking care of our ill loved ones, digestive problems, over-exercise, illness, chronic infections, emotional issues, toxic environments or toxic exposures, processed foods and lack of specific nutrients such as B vitamins.”

I have always suspected a huge adrenal crash in my case. Building from September 2009 to April 2011 (when my symptoms began) I probably owe it to myself to at least get a 4x saliva cortisol test once i have the finances to pay for it.

If anyone in the UK is still interested in investigating adrenal fatigue there are actually two very good doctors here

drmyhill.co.uk/

I have mentioned her before. Check out her website, it’s effectively one huge health guide, very impressive indeed.

Dr Peatfield - now a nutritionist

thyroiduk.org.uk/tuk/pages/advisors/peatfield.html

Because we took finasteride and are the worst manifestation of this list of symptoms.

A guy that i spoke to who is a cell biologist told me in no uncertain terms that finasteride destroys your prostate and causes adrenal fatigue

Thing is, i have been over this again and again in my head. Why have i experienced recoveries when i have done things that should of literally crippled me if i had adrenal fatigue i.e ate terrible food (5 macdonalds cheesburgers) drank alcohol and re started propecia? If you can help me make sense of that then please do because i sure as hell can’t.

At one point last year i was saving some money to visit Peatfield. I have symptoms of very severe adrenal fatigue - i sometimes start crashing out and feeling terrible just from the adrenaline of playing a video game or getting into an argument/ fight with somebody.

I guess there is no point in even thinking about it unless you can see the right doctor to guide you through diagnosis and treatment so i am going to stop thinking about it right now

scienceblogs.com/terrasig/James%20Ray%20Crisler%20Rx%20letter%20from%20Prescott%20News.jpg
what about this?(just found at a body buiding forum)

i will start a process to attempt a recover next week after my appt. with endo. i am still suffering lower back pain…

the alcohol i’m not sure about, other than its affects on the liver, which play a part in our condition, what action it is taking i am not sure of.

regarding the mcdonalds, many hormones, including testosterone, have a precursor of cholesterol… it could be part of why you may feel better, so cholesterol goes in your body and your body turns it into hormones, maybe a surge of testosterone?

i read someone’s post here recently that they didn’t have side effects, but when they got off propecia they began to… so i’m not sure what it’s doing to stabilize the condition, maybe body adapts to propecia and when you get off it, ur sides get worse?

I am fairly sure that the reason i felt better being back on finasteride was because it raises testosterone. That is certainly the best explanation. However, that leads to even more questions that i cannot answer.

It is the only temporary recovery that i have consciously induced, which is why it is important to me.

PLEASE KEEP JN’S THREAD ON TOPIC! It should be about his Protocols and status.

And spam, dont forget spam.

JN, I am very worried about how you are experimenting with the dosages of copper and zinc like this. I have done a lot of research on mineral levels and health (it is the basis for the program I am following), and the relationships between the minerals are a lot more complex than we could ever imagine. For example just because you are low in copper does not mean you should necesarily supplement copper. I have been following a nutritional balancing program for 1 year now and granted I am still quite a way from recovery, with my depression and reduced libido, but one thing I can tell you is that I sleep like a baby these days, where this was not the case 12 months ago. I think you would be better placed to get a full hair mineral analysis done with Analytical Research labs in the US. The late founder Dr Paul Eck pioneered the work on hair mineral analysis and now his protoge, Dr Larry Wilson is now carrying on in his footsteps. You can read up on a host of articles on his website: www.drlwilson.com Please go into it with an open mind. I am sorry to just jump in on your post like this but I saw you were experimenting with mineral levels and felt it was my duty to inform you that there are people who have researched these relationships extensively and may be better placed to help you. I am aware that I am going to take some abuse from this post (from the quackwatch gang) but hay, if I can possibly help you then it is worth it.

This au natural route…

Would it be possible for us to compile a list of supplements that are readily available so that we could all give it a shot? for example zinc, magnesium and b6 are always cropping up. Spirulina is another one.

Or is this just pointless because the whole point of these types of treatments is that they are based on the results of hair/ live blood analysis?

I am really surprised that Spirulina and Cholorella have not been discussed

Have you got any news JN?

I’m a month on taking 70mg per day with some other stuff and no improvements…

I really think it is because DHT is pro inflammatory exactly as in your scalp. (DHT makes scalp cells produce more IL6 pro inflammatory interleukin)
So when you take finasteride DHT drops and inflammation goes down. The nerve signal is better and you feel better.
When DHT goes back inflammation flared up as it was before starting fin.
the same thing when we had the crash, the return of DHT makes the inflammation even worse.

Hey chaps,

Not posted here for a bit. I need to be quick.
Yep, getting better and honing in on a very good life. A couple of points:

  1. Putting magnesium oil on transdermally every morning. Diluted with water. Wait a few minutes and I always feel better; a bit of sweating (good sign) and improvement in mood. Plus all the other benefits of magnesium

  2. Yes, I take chlorella daily.

  3. Taking 90mg zinc and 12mg copper per day, split up EACH in 4 divided doses. I have wrestling with doses and TIMING (VERY important) and had some hairy emotional moments over the last 2 months or so. I will settle on doses in the coming weeks. Erections, mood, energy all improving to a point of relaxing happiness, and soon perfection (still not there yet). Morning erections frequent, strength of erections are 100%, need to be more spontaneous. Libido improving. As I have previously stated, copper and zinc is the MOST powerful thing I have taken in 10 years. J89, as previously stated, taking 70mg zinc alone will do nothing. This is ALL about zinc and copper ratios.

  4. I’m top of the tennis league and loving it.

  5. Will update soon when I have more time.

JN

Have you tested your hormones since coming off of TRT?

Yep, have tested hormones. Essentially very low in T.
Getting a full retest in the next few days.
Update is as follows:

Saw Dr Emerson as something wasn’t quite right. He told me to stop pissing around with the times of doses of zinc and copper.
Now taking copper 10mg morning, zinc 90mg at night.
I’m getting better and better. Looks like copper should be taken in the morning, and zinc at night.
Interestingly, if I was to take 12mg of copper on one day, and say 9mg of copper the next day, I’d feel a bit messed up. Copper is seriously strong stuff and variations can dramatically affect mood, sexual functioning etc.

Currently I feel slightly wonky in the morning for an hour or two and struggle to eat a big breakfast. The copper then kicks in and I’m feeling really good all day. Nocturnal erections improving very slowly, morning erections present, spontaneous erections present but not great, ejaculate much better, balls bigger. Have had sex with a couple of sexy women since splitting with ex and all been ok. Not jumping off the walls yet, but very passable and they noticed nothing, and I said nothing! Hehe.

I will get my bloods done in next couple of days and will take the following to increase my T levels:

  • he shou wu
  • tongkat ali
  • deer antler velvet
  • tribulus
  • pine pollen

Already taking magnesium oil transdermally and high dose zinc and getting Vitamin D from the sun, all of which increase T levels.

Will get back to you with my blood results soonish.
Laters

JN