Good post Mew. However i would like to ask, why do so many PFS sufferers have complete resolution of symptoms for short periods of time if something has been ‘switched off’? surely if that were the case there would be no good or bad periods.
By “switched off” it’s likely Traish is talking about the period shortly after quitting the drug, whereby DHT returns within 2 weeks, the AR probably gets saturated over a few days, and then something happens (“the switch” – AR downregulation? AR desensitization? This crucial point in time is what needs to be investigated) – the effects of DHT start to quickly wane and the “androgen high” (feeling the effects of DHT) ebbs away over coming weeks, when Testosterone/LH/FSH drop to near/actual hypogonadal levels (possibly due to feedback loop of high DHT influencing the HTPA to drop Testosterone output).
That is, and always has been, the million dollar question – what causes the loss of androgenc action when DHT comes back, what causes the acquired hypogonadism, and why from that point forward are many of us unable to feel the effects of androgen. As with many things in nature, the body, receptors and hormones are dynamic and constantly adapting to their environment/stimuli – if brief improvements are noted by some over time, I would expect there has been a temporary shift in function in one of these key areas (hormonal ratios, hormone levels, receptor sensitivity).
Unfortunately the body is extremely complex and we are only in the beginning stages of understanding how it all works on a molecular level. There are innumerous feedback loops and metabolic processes taking place that we simply do not have visibility into, which makes trying to pinpoint the reason for loss of androgenic action post-Finasteride a challenging research initiative – however, one which thankfully is starting to be undertaken: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5282
There are many unknowns , but one thing is for sure – this is not a simple problem easily fixable by just taking some vitamins and minerals. If it were that easy, none of us would be here and we’d all be cured. If that IS the case for some, in my opinion it points to other health issues vs. post-Finasteride syndrome/acquired hypogonadism.
imao is the million dollar answer
based only on a mere self experience it’s like a “recharge time” for me
if at beginning i fluctuate erratically at a bad level of symtoms, by time i fluctuate weekly than monthly at a decent level of symtoms
no scientific expl to offer
i taken i wide range of antibiotic (at beginning) and integrators, but i beleive the main help was from my body and by time
Any particular reason you think that M?
Also, you say you took Saw Palemto starting in feb 2002, but how old would that make you, 14 or 15?!? I know you have said you didnt take it for hairloss but that age cannot be right can it?
Emerson is a little extreme (from his facebook page)
“If anyone thinks that me doing my 6 point radiation protection plan is worrying excessively, then watch the simulation at the bottom of this page showing the radioactive caesium spreading over the Northern Hemisphere.”
cerea.enpc.fr/en/fukushima.html (stimulation)
JN:
All of your claims are exactly what I am thinking.
I know for a fact, without a doubt that when I eat certain foods, bad things happen to my penis. Explanation for it? I have no idea. My doctor currently suspects bacteria imbalance and I’m going back to her in the next week for further testing on this.
I know that I got a food allergy test and it turns out I’m allergic to everything except fruits and vegetables (edit forgot to add meat, i can eat meat). I know that when I drink tap water, I get a swollen epididymis. I know that when I eat gluten, I have extreme panic problems. I know that when I take tylenol, I wake up after 4 or 5 hours of sleep and am wide awake for a few days.
To everyone claiming that JN doesn’t know what he’s talking about should actually take the effort to change their lifestyle and see how the changes effect them instead of sitting behind the computer and dismissing people’s improvement based on “quackwatch” (which is run by western med doctors who as everyone knows have no idea what is wrong with us).
My DOCTOR felt my stomach and said she could feel massive inflammation in my digestive tract. I know that people will probably claim that I have some other unrelated issues. But the fact of the matter is that JN is actually identifying triggers that are going on and I have found the exact same thing. If you people ACTUALLY TRIED IT, then we might have more luck here. Instead, we are going to the wrong doctors who telling us the wrong information because it isn’t even in their field.
Anyway, I have been silent on this forum for the past few months for the exactly the reason that I am seeing here. That random people are bashing JN and just throwing the morale out the window.
If you people want to truly get better, then you better change your lifestyle. Exercise intensely, get food allergy test, eat healthy, sleep well, etc. The choice is in your hands.
/endrant 
I assume you are getting a lot better now then Bryce? you certainly better be if you are going to come on this forum and say this: “If you people want to truly get better, then you better change your lifestyle. Exercise intensely, get food allergy test, eat healthy, sleep well, etc. The choice is in your hands.”
I am a believer in alternative therapies, diet and exercise as methods to combat PFS and i do have suspicions that our issues could be stemming from inflammation and/ or problems with the immune system in which they target, especially in the gut and prostate. However, JN’s natural approach deserves extra critique - even as someone who is generally against mainstream medicine and believes in natural healing, i still believe that most naturopaths are ‘quacks’ and there methods both in testing and treatment are very often nothing but scams. Constantly seeing sources such as ‘quackwatch’ to provide evidence against natural and alternative methods though is cringeworthy and quite irritating.
There isn’t anyone even close to Emerson’s standard as a a naturopath and MD in the UK so i am going to stick to my own regime/ lifestyle changes that i have come up with through my own research.
. Diet high in veggies and clean meat, low carbohydrates, minimal grains/ sugar - i have started juicing
. Regular exercise - focusing on strength training in the AM to boost cortisol, only LIGHT cardio
. FERMENTED cod liver oil (encouraged by Emerson) as an anti inflammatory, digestive aid and antioxidant - if your going to stab in the dark with a supplement, high quality fish oil is the one
. Digestive enzymes to increase absorption of nutrients amongst other supposed benefits - my dodgy stools clearly indicate a problem with my digestive system
. Reducing/ controlling anxiety and stress as best possible - more important than any supplement you can buy
. More small meals rather than a few large meals that put a strain on the digestive system to digest
Unless you are under the supervision of a doctor or are paying for mineral/ nutrient testing yourself it really is quite pointless to take lots of supplements, because you are simply stabbing in the dark. I have made this mistake myself and i looked in my cupboard tonight and only just realized how much money i have wasted. From now on i will only take two well known supplements that i KNOW serve a purpose for me i.e cod liver oil. There is a good chance that i probably didn’t even absorb half of the stuff i have been putting into my body over the last 17 months.
It is also very important to remember that generally you are supposed to give it at least 4 months before you see any benefits of a supplement that you are taking. Especially nutrients and minerals - many herbs can have rapid effects
Last but not least, this natural approach will not always work. You are an example of someone who is likely to benefit greatly from this sort of stuff Bryce - you say you react almost instantly to grains and other foods. For many, this is not an issue, and not everyone has allergies capable of causing serious problems. I am sort of stuck half way between the natural approach because on one hand, i believe it and i feel there is no two ways about whether treating your body better and creating optimum conditions for the bodily system to function properly is of benefit. However, on the other hand - i have often felt better when i have eaten what i like, drank what i like, done 0 exercise and so on.
There is absolutely NO doubt that it was finasteride and finasteride ONLY that got us all in this mess, but that doesn’t mean the 18 points that JN set out are not of value to a potential recovery.
I am going to leave a few website URL’s here for anyone interested in optimizing there health in combatting PFS (bookmark these):
drgregemerson.com/fact-file/acidalkaline-balance
drmyhill.co.uk/
longecity.org/forum/forum/6-supplements/
peoplespharmacy.com/
ergo-log.com/
coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/
whatiscpps.blogspot.com/
Is this a legitamate medical doctor? It sounds like a quack. You need to have a CRP (C-Rreative Protein) blood test done to confirm inflammation in the body. You can’t tell if someone has inflammation by feeling their stomach.
This is fucking bullshit. I have been living like a health freak for more than two years now. I exercise constantly with high intensity workout, lift weights and eat only the healthiest of foods. It’s not doing anyhing.
As a matter of a fact I think your statment is so ignorant and based on “0” facts that I hope one of the moderators deletes or edits it. All your comments do is discredit all of the members of this forum. This has nothing to do with lifestyle.
I was going to say; there are numerous members on this board that practice an insanely healthy lifestyle and it has made no difference at all.
Come back and make big statements like that when you are cured Bryce.
Sure, I’m happy to be labelled a quack, or ‘unconventional’. I bothered to read Mew’s snide, bigotted, overly conventional, authoritarian, narrow minded, corrupt post. Feel free to question my mental state. I’ve had assessments by 6 independent psychiatrists when assessing my fitness to practice, and no psychiatric problems were identified.
Mew, Oscar/scaredmale, awor and other cronies…laugh, mock and jibe away. Be as patronising as you want. It feeds the narcissist in me!! I’m having the first and last laugh, however. You’ll still be looking under your conventional electron microscopes in 10 or 15 years’ time with your soft cocks and lonely, fatigue ridden bodies, trying to find out which segment of DNA underwent an epigenetic change to induce direct androgen receptor insensitivity. You won’t find one, nor an answer to your million dollar question, (which it certainly isn’t). I don’t know what your definition of ‘conventional medicine’ is, but if you limit yourself to working with scientists and ’ conventional top doctors’, you won’t get better. I promise you won’t.
Mew- I highly suggest you broaden your mind and get stool parasitology analysis done. Let me what it shows and I’ll help you. Or would you rather parasites feast and proliferate in your body due to your lowered body temperature? Get your serum copper tested, your reverse t3, your serum food allergies screen done, your red blood cell magnesium, your serum zinc, your Vitamin D level. Please get your urinary pyroles tested too, if it won’t upset you too much. Have you tried the compounded zinc B6 Vit E Vit C formula? I have, and it’s flipping awesome. Or is it all too Quackish for you? Have you tried earthing yourself? Or are you just going to mock the suggestion? Have you read the small body of evidence, even from ‘top doctors’ which advocates earthing? Not in favour of swinging the balance slowly in your favour to regain full health? Clearly not. Too arrogant to get your red blood cells analysed under live microscopy? Doesn’t bother me. Not listening to me when I say I’ve made a remarkable recovery and am powered by organic vegetable juice and take nothing resembling a medication? Fine. Not interested in the healing properties of medicinal mushrooms (Reishi and Chaga) which are clinically proven to reduce oxidative stress? No worries. Want to try regulating your sleep patterns to a 9pm to 6am structure, using an ‘earthing blanket’? I have, and I feel awesome! Do you want me to apologise for this?
The only million dollar question is ‘what is the cause of our persistent suffering’?? And it won’t take a million dollars to find that out.
If I could stop wasting time on petty arguments I’d have time to write how to find the cause, and then how to treat the cause. I just need a hour spare for each. Laters,
JN
BostonUSA- you may think you’re living healthily, but you probably aren’t. Additionally, you can’t have treated the cause of your suffering. Have you eliminated foods you are allergic to? Have you got a stool parasite sample test done, and treated accordingly? What is your body temperature? What’s your serum zinc? Copper? Do you earth yourself? If not, why would you disconnect yourself from the ground and label yourself as healthy? Have you got a yeast infection? CRP is a terrible marker of inflammation. Trust me, I see about 50 readings a day. It’s not specific or sensitive enough. I’d say that inspection and palpation of the abdomen would be a better test of gut pathology/inflammation than a CRP.
Good luck
JN
She is a naturepath. Yes, she is a doctor. Naturepathic doctor gets a ND. It’s not the same as an MD.
Yes, I was surprised as well that she could detect it. She told me that my digestive system was moving in the wrong direction and there is a flow to how it’s supposed to move. She said it’s supposed to move in a continuous flow, but mine was not. She wasn’t too far off considering my food allergy test.
Next, I have the same bad symptoms as many people. But I have just realized that specific foods are causing it. You say you are on healthy foods, but I even have issues with many fruits. The best foods I eat to detox my body is vegetables and meat and cardio.
I do a lot of swimming, walking, and yoga which also help.
JN im thinking ever since you got the RT3 out of your body is when everything started coming into play dont you think your success now has to do with you going on T3 protocol in the past and getting your body rid of RT3? exessive RT3 is known to cause androgen receptors to be weak so once you got the RT3 out is when the DHT and everything else got better? do you agree with this? if you never got on the T3 protocol in the past and got rid of your RT3 i dont think you would be seeing the success you are seeing now.
JN, Please find, make, create, engineer time do the write ups… Many thanks!!
Actually JN, I specifically prefaced that post in that I was going to critique what you posted, from a critical POV. Yet, you have chosen to reply from an emotional angle without addressing the facts from a logical POV, instead choosing to engage in angry rhetoric and claim I have “snide, bigotted” intentions.
Completely untrue, I even wished you well at the end, considering you believe the source of your problems is now CHRONIC FATIGUE SYNDROME which is a different matter altogether from androgen deprivation and resultant hypogonadism many guys end up with after Finasteride.
Many of the health claims you are trying to argue as a cause for persistent Finasteride side effects (pyroluria, electromagnetic grounding, flouride in water supply, vague “parasites” etc) have either been debunked by science as dubious “catch-all” diagnoses made by alternative health practitioners to sell you products, or there is absolutely no scientific evidence of any such connection resulting from Finasteride use. I’m sorry you can’t seem to accept this, for whatever reason, especially considering you are an intelligent and educated individual… which I know since we have spoken many times in the past.
There is a forum full of studies documenting what Finasteride does, and the thoughts of leading researchers investigating the problem have been posted many times, yet you choose to dismiss such facts and instead believe in what is generally considered to be unfounded pseudoscience. But, since you admit you are suffering from chronic fatigue syndrome, perhaps your issues stem from a different problem which the rest of us do not share – something unique to your body, hormonal profile or genetic makeup? Unless you were to participate in research, there is no way to know.
Not mocking you JN, just questioning your statements from a critical POV. No doubt making healthy choices and lifestyle improvements is a good thing, but as you and I both know, many have tried such things in the past and it makes no difference. If it were that easy, there wouldn’t be class action lawsuits and researchers looking into this problem.
BTW, referring to Administrators as “cronies” isn’t going to win you any favors.
Thanks for your opinion, however I disagree. Researching this problem from a scientific perspective is the only way the root cause will be found. Wether it turns out to be an issue related to androgen receptor function/sensitivity, gene expression changes, downregulation, 5AR2 enzyme function/gene expression changes, altered hormonal/steroidogenesis pathways or otherwise, we don’t know yet. But that is what we are aiming to find out.
So now working with research scientists who have the tools to investigate this condition in the lab is a complete waste of time? In case you haven’t noticed, that is something we as a group have been trying to achieve for years, and now it’s finally happening.
If you think such research is unimportant, I’m not even sure why you are here, because you clearly have lost scope of just how complex this Post-Finasteride Syndrome problem is, and that it is not just a simple matter of making some dietary/lifestyle changes that will solve it. If it were that easy, we’d all be cured, this forum wouldn’t need to exist, and we wouldn’t be suffering from the longterm effects of chemical castration/androgen ablation.
Instead, if we were to follow your logic, perhaps we should all just give up and go home, and instead believe in debunked pseudoscience and dubious diagnoses (such as “electrical grounding”… sorry, but that’s not going to give you gyno, atrophy your prostate, cause penile fibrosis, reduce your semen output, cause impotence, inhibit neurosteroids and everything else Finasteride is documented to do), so we can all be sold useless supplements to treat non-existent problems that play on our gullibility and desperation.
Yes JN, that sounds like a MUCH better option instead of trusting PHD’s who are experts in molecular biology, andrology and epigenetics, who are trying to help us find the root cause of persistent Finasteride Side Effects on their dime, and who are actively trying to help us in the lab to uncover as many clues as possible.
Your argument that we should just abandon all scientific reason and research in favor of anonymous/emotional Internet posts like those you have made is simply untenable. Trusting anonymous, anecdotal opinion vs actual research being conducted into the problem simply makes no sense whatsoever, but since you don’t seem to believe in science all of a sudden, unfortunately I’m surprised and puzzled.
We’ve already seen when someone tries to sell “their theory” to the forum (solonjk’s prostatitis/Greece thread) and how some people feel they’ve been duped, so you are walking on eggshells there.
I’m not interested in unfounded/debunked quackery, I’m interested in cold hard science, the scientific method and the answers it will provide. If you want to believe in debunked treatments and spend your money on such to treat your chronic fatigue syndrome, go right ahead.
As mentioned previously, much of what you list has already been debunked by the mainstream medical community, hence why charlatans and alternative health practitioners generally peddle it.
Considering this, why anyone would waste their time and money on such things even though there is not a shred of evidence to connect them to Finasteride 5AR2/androgen inhibition effects, is beyond me.
You’re right – it will take scientific research, which we are currently engaged in. So thanks for sharing your opinion you don’t support such initiatives – I’m glad you’ve found relief from your chronic fatigue syndrome issues via naturopathy ( I believe this is your 3rd or 4th theory/cure now? Honestly, I’ve lost track at this stage) and I truly do wish you well.
The root cause hasn’t been found yet, hence the scientific research. But if you believe you’ve found YOUR cause for your chronic fatigue syndrome via naturopathy and related diagnoses, that’s great.
Truly JN, I do wish you well but you are trying to attribute a broad list of things/debunked diganoses which have no documented connection to Finasteride use whatsoever, and as such of course they will be heavily scrutinized. It’s not hard to see that the symptoms of androgen deprivation ( viewforum.php?f=8 ) to the point of not even being plausible from a logical perspective.
That is my opinion but you are free to disagree, as I’m sure you will. Good luck.
Look, I don’t have much time these days. Clearly our approaches are different. Of note is that I’m much recovered from a profound state of suffering as a result of finasteride.
If you’re not interested in several investigations and treatments which you don’t believe are mainstream enough for you, or have been debunked by others, then fine.
You have misrepresented me in definition of terms. At least, I’d like to make myself clear. I believe ‘PFS’ is actually chronic fatigue syndrome. CFS is an umbrella term for long list of varied symptoms, whose root causes can be identified (my 18 points, and is multifactorial) and treated accordingly.
I’m as much a Post Finasteride Sufferer as anyone here. Finasteride solely caused a huge list of symptoms, and I believe I was among the worst sufferers here. The fact remains that I’ve virtually healed myself. Where I was at an average of 5% of functioning for many years after finasteride, I am now an average of over 90%, maybe 95%, and I have got better predominantly in the last 6 months, as I have described. I’m sure the last 5 to 10% is soon to come.
You just don’t want to believe it because I didn’t do it YOUR conventional, laboratory based way. I took an open minded, but still highly scientific approach. And for not believing me, you’ll suffer most.
Good luck
JN
THAT is the key point here JN – you consider PFS Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, when it is first and foremost a condition of persistent hypogonadism in its purest form, and has been confirmed by numerous doctors treating PFS patients as such. That is what this entire site was/is based around, and has been the driving impetus for investigation, especially considering the common pattern of guys’ Testosterone/LH/FSH levels dropping within weeks of quitting the drug.
Finasteride is a documented anti-androgen, we underwent androgen deprivation, many men developed long-lasting symptoms of hypogonadism as confirmed by bloodwork and resultant side effects which are generally androgen mediated (erectile function, muscle, libido etc). Yes, “fatigue” is a part of PFS, but it is only one of many symptoms.
You are labeling PFS as something completely different (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) and thus by definition, are treating a different condition. There we will have to agree to disagree.
JN, I understand you’ve made great strides in symptom management and quality of life, but something I’m unable to understand from the thread is the state of your sexual function/dysfunction after beginning your current therapy.
If you compare a pre-finasteride state of the ability to your current treatment abilities in the following categories where do you stand? Could you please quantify these so we can understand the current state of your sexual function? So you understand where I’m coming from, I was positive in all of these categories prior to taking finasteride and since I am markedly worse in every category. How is it for you now?
- get an erection immediately
- have multiple sexual activities daily to multiple orgasms
- getting spontaneous erections often
- having daily morning erections
- have multiple orgasms/ejaculations in a row
- have as strong, satisfying feeling with orgasm
- gain and maintain erections in any position
- shoot ejaculate for a distance rather than dribble it
- have a pressing libido urges through the day to have sexual activity through completion
- have full hard erection size every time and no problems with over-shrinkage after orgasm