How about a simple explanation of JN’s success such as:
JN also claims to have had success with supplementing androgens (DHT, T, etc.). He seems to be close enough to recovery to benefit from the additional stimulation that all these AR enhancing sups give him, including t3. By now, we unfortunately know that not everyone benefits from supplementing androgens, making it unlikely that many people will benefit from supplementing t3. It would certainly be interesting to get more feedback on this.
obviously it would not reverse the muscle you had already lost, but the important factor is the ability to rebuild and retain muscle again.
in addition if rt3 is blocking t3 receptors (as someone has stated, didnt see a scientific reference however) and indeed t3 and androgen receptors relate as AWOR’s study suggest, then by removing rt3 the androgen receptor could perhaps begin working again. Just conjecture though.
One will look into this
Is thier a special brand name for the slow release or is it much harder to find?
Thats a pretty big statement
Be good if its right
Also jn did you have ringing in the ears and has this subsided
Why is increased androgen receptor levels more likely than T3 clearing out an overabundance or RT3? Or perhaps these are the same thing, because androgen receptors are being blocked by the same RT3?
JN is cutting back other androgen supps the longer he’s on T3. I don’t see why it’s unlikely many other people will benefit. Where is the basis for this statement other than an assumption increasing receptor sensitivity is either not equal to or more likely than T3 clearing out RT3 (from receptor sites)?
Based on the above quoted research I don’t believe that JN’s positive experience with supplementing T3 had anything to do with reverse T3. Rather, it seems that the main mechanism of this reaction is due to an increase in AR levels. This would lead to an increase in AR gene expression, just like if he had taken androgens. As we know, JN’s generally positive reaction to androgens is an edge case. If this were not true, we wouldn’t all be sitting here.
I have been experimenting with valproic acid lately, which is a potent inhibitor of HDAC1 [1]. HDAC1 deacetylates the androgen receptor, thereby silencing it [2]. So inhibiting this enzyme actually increases the transcriptional rate of the AR, which in turn increases AR gene expression. Just to refresh what I mean by transcription, let’s take a high level look at the pathway:
androgens (ligand) => AR => transcription => translation => gene expression (protein) => androgenic action
Remarkably, this intervention with valproic acid ultimately increased my side effects in the same way androgens do. This is a clear sign that increasing AR gene expression by ANY means, be it by…
…will lead to problems with the more severely affected amongst us. On the other hand, the less severely affected may benefit.
As increasing AR levels by supplementing t3 will also lead to more transcription and thus more gene expression, I am presuming that it will rather help the “edge cases” around here and potentially cause problems for the rest of us. I certainly do not subscribe to JN’s claim that t3 will be the “cure for all of us”, however nice that idea may sound.
My statement currently represents an “educated guess” and I would be very interested in validating it through the experience of other sufferers who have tried t3 supplementation.
If someone does try this, please do report your experience in a new thread, as not to derail JN’s recovery thread.
Thanks.
[1] jbc.org/content/276/39/36734.full
[2] jbc.org/content/277/29/25904.full#fn-2
Valproic acid, an anti-convulsant and mood-stabilizer, is a GABA agonist (according to Wiki) and found in valerian root. It made my symptoms worse too. To note, valerian has similar properties to benzodiazapram (valium). I cannot imagine this will make anyone better.
Many of us are affected differently and respond differently to different things. It’s shocking how similar some of our symptoms and struggle for diagnoses is similar to hypothyroid patients. Especially those with RT3 problems, which many members that posted here have, which is hypothyroidism that fails to respond to normal treatment, just as our feelings of hypogonadism and ED fail to respond. With RT3 problems this is known as tissue resistance, which based on how we feel is a lot like improper AR gene expression (side effects):
http://thyroid-rt3.com/whatdo.htm
The important item in this discussion is that hypothyroid patients have symptoms similar to many of ours. RT3 overabundance literally blocks metabolism in the body which would create an effect very similar, if not the same, of gene expression problems you describe. However it’s a much simpler solution, and unlike AR gene expression, we have members who have tested positive for a RT3 dominance problem, members who have reacted to thyroid agents such as iodine (one of the only things besides intense illness and at times exercise that has returned me to 100% since taking fin, however briefly), and someone (JN) who is having success treating with T3. There are a lot more hypothyroid sufferers than PFS sufferers and they are more organized with roadmaps for treatment. Two examples:
stopthethyroidmadness.com and thyroid-rt3.com
I think we should be encouraging testing and if indicated trying treatment in this regard rather than asking blanket questions such as “will this cure us all” an answering “I don’t think so”. How many of us are fucking anything regularly with normal erections? JN seems to be. We have a clear cut explanation of why our body isn’t reaction to androgens properly, testing to pursue via the two websites above, and a clear treatment option if this is the case. Notably also, T3 supplementation can solve symptoms such as emotional blunting gradually over months, the exact opposite of finasteride which took emotional width from me over months/years. Proper thyroid function is required for proper sleep and balances of sex hormones. If our thyroid isn’t working right the balance of everything else will not be working right either.
I don’t know if this will cure everyone, but we don’t know it won’t help until we try and thanks to our human guinea pig (JN) we know it’s working with someone. What’s the worst that can happen if pursue getting tested? We waste some money? We’re wasting our lives here. Time = money. Money = time. I’ve had ups and downs but I’m only able to orgasm a few times a week and barely feel it and the trend is downhill.
JN, thanks bro. I had to sell my watch to cover the fees I’m committing to for blood testing yesterday.
awor was using valproic acid for reasons other then it being a gabba modifier or having mood stabilizing qualities, its also an HDAC inhibitor.
another member pointed out the concept of Occam’s razor to me however - basically that the most simplistic answer is often the correct one - and an abundance of RT3 is much simpler then changes in gene expression.
JN,
I read your update and that’s great that you have an improvement in libido.Are you having any morning erections, has your sexual performance improved?
Since you were already on HCG and TRT we don’t know how much of an impact that has had on your improvement. Are you planning on staying on both of those? Obviously I know the dependence the body can have on the TRT.
I’m just trying to figure out if we will likely need to be on something that will increase our T, or if there is a chance that the T3 will help out in this area as well.
I just don’t want to be disappointed yet again that T3 is not the solution that we pray it is.
thanks, boston
I am praying! Has anyone else tried T3 yet??? I am waiting for my new tests to come back… if the doc declines I guess I will go rogue and find some anyway.
Also, I wonder if using HGH and/or DHT helped him to get everything in order where all needed is T3 to top it off or could he have accomplished the same results by skipping EVERYTHING and taking T3 immediately?
Where have you seen where Tissue Resistance mimics the improper gene expression side effects? I dont see anything about Reverse T3 making your voice get higher and your penis shrink
In all fairness there is not much about rt3 on the net at all. also, awor and i have both posted studies about how Triiodothyronine can interact with the AR
This is a pretty good write up on reverse T3. He claims high level in people who are not starving is caused by heavy metals. If this has been discussed before I apologize. JN have you been tested for heavy metals?
age4ever.com/Thyroid-Disease-Symptoms.html
not saying thats not accurate because i have no idea but i always second guess someone who is selling a product
Think about this. If RT3 blocks T3, T3 is unable to do it’s work, it’s being blocked (i.e. resisted). The same concept goes for genes, they are not doing their work. The point is it doesn’t matter how something is being blocked as long as it’s being blocked. The issue is to find the upstream issue and fix it so the downstream parts can properly function. Sex hormones cannot balance or function properly without proper thyroid function. Thyroid function controls metabolism. If the thyroid doesn’t work nothing else can either.
If you guys want to keep fighting about what’s causing JN’s recovery, look at what he’s taking. Test, HCG, and T3. Big improvement on T3, eliminate DHT, reduce Test. Not big improvement from detoxing metals. And isn’t it more likely that metals would build up in our systems if our metabolism slowed down than they caused it to slow down? I mean we all took fin, right? We know it lowered our hormone states and threw it out of balance, this is what fin does. Metals are in the environment, we cannot help that. Our bodies are designed to rid themselves of metals unless we are ueber exposed or compromise it. We shouldn’t get overloaded when everyone else doesn’t unless our systems aren’t working right.
I also think it’s very possible that Fin caused us to starve in a way. If fin altered our liver enzymes, energy was diverted from producing what we needed to survive. Familiar with Steve Jobs? He had pancreatic cancer causing it’s removal and was starving to death because his body wasn’t getting the right enzyme to make an essential protein. It feels like I was starved when I was on fin, starving for something vital fin was blocking. Whether this was only DHT or a combination of things, starvation is a stress, and stress causes the body to produce cortisol, reduce T3, and produce RT3.
There is a lot on the net about RT3. Two sources are stopthethyroidmadness and thyroid-rt3.com/ along with a host of user groups and forums, many are linked from these sites. Think how much info we’ve created here and PFS has only been around 10 years or so, people have been treating thyroid problems for MUCH longer with a vested interest in solving them and feeling better. THIS IS US! We are not researchers or doctors worried about career or buying a bigger house or our kids or what Merck might do to us, they’ve already done it and in many cases these things have already been lost. We have a vested interest in feeling better and living life again.
The purpose behind using valproic acid, valerian, or valium does not change the effect. A substance cannot control it’s effects with intention.
Guys, I think this is getting far off topic. If we want to keep discussing lets move to a different thread. I realize I’m a bit guilty too. There are places to discuss these topics already. The real question is do you know your own FT3/RT3 ratio? Your average body temp? If it’s not over 20 and in the mid to high 98s you’ve got a problem, but do you know it? This is what put JN onto T3 treatment…
Thanks for posting this article BadLuck.
It’s very interesting because this could explain the connection between Letsconvenience’s and JN’s recoveries. I personally have both high copper and mercury levels as well as a low body temperature so I think that both of these factors are at play here. The only piece of the puzzle that would be missing in this theory is the link to finasteride. One possibility is that finasteride impairs liver function (as medical research has shown), which could have then caused these heavy metals to build up in the cells of the body. These heavy metal toxins could then be causing T4 to be converted into reverse T3 as opposed to T3 which would result in Wilson’s syndrome. The question remains as to why most people recover from the symptoms of finasteride upon quitting, while others don’t. I believe there are two possibilities:
Hi guys, I found this,
http://www.suite101.com/content/is-wilsons-syndrome-real-a121932
"Reverse-T3 Syndrome – Is It Real?
Doctors Doubt the Existence of Reverse-T3 Dominance "
I believe that our bodies broke down and caused a cascading affects…
IE.
Neurotransmitters…Thyroid…Adrenals affected each other and never returned to homeostasis.
[/quote]
Thanks for posting this article BadLuck.
It’s very interesting because this could explain the connection between Letsconvenience’s and JN’s recoveries. I personally have both high copper and mercury levels as well as a low body temperature so I think that both of these factors are at play here. The only piece of the puzzle that would be missing in this theory is the link to finasteride. One possibility is that finasteride impairs liver function (as medical research has shown), which could have then caused these heavy metals to build up in the cells of the body. These heavy metal toxins could then be causing T4 to be converted into reverse T3 as opposed to T3 which would result in Wilson’s syndrome. The question remains as to why most people recover from the symptoms of finasteride upon quitting, while others don’t. I believe there are two possibilities: