Ah, I see.
I sometimes wonder if experimenting really did help the people that vouch for them or if it was really just time doing its thing.
I will say that you’re probably on the right track if you’re not experimenting anymore.
How long has it been since you took sodium butyrate?
I read something by a moderator here that sodium butyrate can be very bad. Devastatingly bad. I would be very careful. I took a small amount before reading the warnings and noted that I felt “flatter” than previously. I do not believe lasting harm occurred because the amount I took was minimal and I immediately stopped it once I noted the undesired side effect. I am currently doing well in terms of emotion and sense of wellbeing.
Can you show me where you seen that it was bad @pete? I never seen it posted here only anecdotal accounts of it being beneficial.
Transcriptional silencing of estrogen target genes in response to deacetylase inhibition by VPA and TSA has been reported (Reid et al. 2005), and consistent with the finding that butyrate and SAHA drastically reduced total and phosphorylated ER levels, we have demonstrated that they also abolish E2-dependent transcription of the ER target genes,
I’m not on any right track I am on my death bed.
I also have alopecia losing 500 plus hairs a day.
TMJ
Carpel tunnel syndrome
trigger finger
arthralgia
myalgia
Neuropathy of lower limbs
I posted this elsewhere but I hope it helps those poor souls with very low estrogen syndrome:
"I’ve normal Testosterone level but very low E2. I think fixing the gut will raise E2 because I did so much research on factors that affect E2 level in the body. The factors are:
Low Testosterone. This isn’t the case for many men and it wasn’t my case either.
Aromatase enzyme deficiency. This could be genetic and also when using Aromatase Inhibitors. I did several AIs and some made my E2 literally ZERO and libido non-existent. But I returned to normal after sometime, fortunately.
Low DHEA-s. This is my case (low DHEA-s) because taking 25mg DHEA for two weeks increased my E2 from 11 pg/ml to 28 pg/ml. Check DHEA-s level.
Anti-estrogen supplements/foods. I made a full list of them. They include high dose zinc, fat soluble vitamins A D E K, green tea extracts, high olive oil consumption, melatonin, high B1 & B2 vitamins, etc.
High fiber diet. Too much fiber binds to E2 in the gut and is excreted from the body with stools.
& MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR THAT I DISCOVERED…
" The estrobolome is a collection of bacteria in the gut which is capable of metabolising and modulating the body’s circulating estrogen. It is the bacteria in the gut, and the estrobolome , that affects estrogen levels, which in turn can impact weight, libido and mood."
This bacteria make an enzyme called Beta-glucuronidase which deconjugates E2 in the gut. There are scientific citations (I can share them) stating that the most important memeber of this bacterial group is E. Coli (yep there’s a friendly E. Coli too). I suspect you have severe gut dysbiosis and thus very low Beta-glucuronidase activity.
I think tribulus hurted me like butirrate hurted you.
I don’t know if tribulus is an AI
O think like you. I’ve read here to take tribulus, and cycle it. Cycling substances is the worst think to do.
I cannot recall where I saw it.
If anyone attempts anything it may be wise to start with a very small dose. Carefully log the results of how you feel. Write it down in a notebook. It may all go badly wrong very quickly. An Italian doctor has already written about the negative impacts of supplements. I’m not a doctor.
If anyone can show me were it was noted that sodium butyrate was bad on this forum let me know. I just checked the androgen deprivation paper why have they taken out SB from the list of potential therapeutics and then replaced sodium butyrate as a 5alpha reductase inhibitor? It’s almost like they used my experienced to log down on the paper.
I have Post Finasteride Syndrome and Post aromatase syndrome lad this is a death sentence. I have never been in so much pain in my life
When you have PFS losing hair could be a good sign.
These were the only references to “butyrate” I could find in the post-Androgen Deprivation hypothesis paper:
[Concerning substances claimed to have a noteworthy positive or negative effect on this site]
These have included zinc, quercetin, resveratrol, milk thistle, licorice root, turmeric/curcumin, sulforaphane, DIM, sodium butyrate, saw palmetto, tribulus terrestris, polyphenol rich products such as cacao nibs or pomegranate, and soy and soy isoflavones including genistein, all of which are notably antiandrogenic through various mechanisms
Sodium butyrate, a histone deacyletase inhibitor capable of modulating AR expression (Paskova et al., 2013), showed improvement in motor deficits and histopathological impairment of neurons and muscle within an narrow optimum dose window in transgenic mice (Minamiyama, 2004).
…and it matches a draft of the paper I had from right before it was published on this site.
Hopefully no one is taking these observations as recommendations?
This is a long shot but try getting a GI Mapping (microbiome assay) from ubiome, vbiom, thryve, etc. I just had mine done and the results were truly eye opening with diet recommendations. There were both overgrowths and undergrowths that I didn’t know about. Fixing the gut with pre and pro biotics alone is like shooting a moving target in the dark.
And, to emphasise this in case people get the wrong end of the stick, the quote
Sodium butyrate, a histone deacyletase inhibitor capable of modulating AR expression (Paskova et al., 2013), showed improvement in motor deficits and histopathological impairment of neurons and muscle within an narrow optimum dose window in transgenic mice (Minamiyama, 2004).
is in relation to a different disease, SBMA.
It’s stated that some patients have reported symptomatic relief (usually temporarily) or worsening from use of various substances but it shouldn’t be characterised as a list of potential therapeutics, more a list of what patients have tried when self-medicating. The full quote in context is here
Across the history of the propeciahelp forum, the most consequentially profound responses described entail significant modulation of symptoms by further exposure to substances that lower androgens through mechanisms including 5 alpha reductase inhibition, or substances that reduce concentrations of or inhibit AR. While rapid and severe worsening can occur, patients have equally often reported the dramatic return of function in the domains affected by PFS, usually temporarily. These are nearly always taken in the absence of the knowledge they are taking pharmaceuticals or natural extracts with antiandrogenic properties and are frequently sought out based upon their purported benefits in marketing and health editorials concerning relief of symptoms or through online reports from other patients. These have included zinc, quercetin, resveratrol, milk thistle, licorice root, turmeric/curcumin, sulforaphane, DIM, sodium butyrate, saw palmetto, tribulus terrestris, polyphenol rich products such as cacao nibs or pomegranate, and soy and soy isoflavones including genistein, all of which are notably antiandrogenic through various mechanisms
https://www.propeciahelp.com/ar-deregulation-as-a-key-pathological-driver-of-pfs/.
Additionally, the only change to the paper to date was the removal of a line pertaining to post-mortem examination
you better not quit man i know its the hardest thing for you but please hold it together
Can I ask what brand you of butyrate you took?
