Improvements on Anti-estrogens - Why?

General Discussion
#1

Me, willIbeOk, ScareToDeath, Enden, Robocop, Mens Rea have had recoveries on anti estrogens.

For most of us the effects do not last. We really need an explination why this is happening as this will help point to the root cause.

I had a good recovery on arimidex in august last year. It did not last long but I was getting errections thoughout the day. I felt REALLY horny at times. Some time I HAD to masterbate. I could get wood with just thought. I had sex during this time and orgasim felt stronger too.

About 1 month ago I tried PES erase at 1 a day. And I had a similar recovery, at some stages I was horney and looking at girls was fascinating. I was getting errections just talking to girls I knew. I managed to have sex once at this tie too. I got a very hard errections right away just by kissing a not so pretty girl. I took not of all my other symptoms during this recovery, they ALL improved.

Red rash on my testicales was much better.
Digestion was much better, stools were well formed and I did not need to run to take a crap as soon as I woke up.
Anxiety was not present.
I was hungry, I was hungry before all my meals and would not really be able to skip a meal.
I felt better.

I am trying to work out why! I now my body is able to function as normal, eveything is able to work without problem.

I originally thought maybe the problem is that our cells are downregulating their androgen receptors. But when I was on 200+ MG test a week last year I grew new body hair on my chest and stomach. This seems to suggest that the cells are still responsive to androgens.

So I am trying to work out another mechanism.

I am thinking maybe it is something to do with SHBG, this is something that I would imagine takes a few days to adjust to the new levels of estrogen and testosterone. Once it does adjust we then are back where we started.

I am pretty sure testosterone lowers SHBG and E2 increases it. People who take large amount of steroids have reduced SHBG, lower SHBG means higher free E2. High E2 can cause all our problems. I have done extensive testing and they all point to e2 being too high or that e2 is having a too great influence on the cells.

I guess to verify this we need to test free e2 when on anti estrogens. This can be done with a siliva test.

I have done one e2 siliva test and I was over range.

#2

read my post here about relationship between estrogen and bile acids, maybe it can relate:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6575

#3

Yes, when my free estrogen is high. I feel like there is a brick in my stomach. Estrogen effects cortisol and both estrogen and cortisol affect digestion. When I have recoverd my digestion was a lot better.

#4

Well, the part about free estradiol is interesting, but it should go down along with the total estradiol level. I would rather have a low- than high SHBG level, because it has greater affinity for androgens like DHT and testosterone. In other words, SHBG enhances estrogen dominance.

#5

Last time I did some blood tests on 32.5mg Testosteron E. My blood T was well in range. I then went down to 27.5 E3D and did a siliva test and e2 and e3 were both over range.

ScaredToDead has blood results before and on Arimidex, his e2 was about the same but SHBG went down while on. So his free E2 must have gone up. He said his libido was like a teenage boy during the first week.

Lucky this theory is not hard to test and rule out. But from all my testing it seem quite a possibility.

#6

One thing I’ve noticed with Arimidex, is that I often get initial symptoms of gynecomastia AFTER the first pill. I believe that it causes the testosterone level to raise a bit, which paradoxically causes the estrogen level to raise along with it - before it plummets. I think the free estradiol level follows the total estradiol level, and that it’s difficult to sustain the recoveries because Arimidex is very potent, and usually drives the estradiol level too low. When you quit, and let the estradiol level raise again, it may get out of control pretty fast. The fact that symptoms of too low- and high estradiol level are almost the same, doesn’t make it any easier.

#7

If you want a weaker anti-e you can use PES Erase. Its effects only seem to last a day or so, if you go too low and get joint pain you can reduce dose and next day or 2 you will be better.

Interestingly my joints got a lot better on PES Erase probably due to the increase in free cortisol from loweing E2. But all the good effects from pes erase did not last, I felt high E2 signs coming back in 2 weeks. I could feel this from feeling some anxity, but when I took a pill this cleared the anxiety. There is a guy pmgammer on the net he mentions that anti estrogens often lose their positive effect and that he need to take more and more. Sometimes he says he is popping them evey hour. I would say this is something to do with the free E. I also remember after I recovered with arimidex there was a day I felt really bad, lots of anxiety, no energy. I had to lie in bed. Almost though I was going to die.

#8

Add backfromhell to the list of temp recoveries on anti estrogens. There is a serious pattern here.

#9

my hypothesis…the body may become accustomed to high levels of estradiol by reducing DHT, or 5ar2 enzyme is less active and produces less DHT in specific tissues which are substituted by conversion to estradiol.

I heard a doctor say that the body temperature is responsible for activating certain enzymes, do not know if it was the Wilson (Wilson disease).

every time I remember my temporary recovery with anti-e I’m sure my body is able to fully recover. it’s just a matter of time and hit the drug.

I’m trying some anti aromatase supplements. Trans-resveretrol, quercetin (+ bioperine). The effects are very weak. I try to use for 1 month. Seems that one way to find a cure is through trial and error.

#10

Yes I have seen pretty much a full recovery. And 3 times. Enden says he got his libido back countless times. You really think we can recover over time? I am starting to have my doubts. it is almost 4 years for me and I got worse.

#11

So how AR silencing or epigenetic applies here?

#12

I wouldn’t call mine a “recovery” id call it an improvement.

But i believe the “gains” were emanating from a difference source, atleast partially, that the root of my actual problems are.

By that i mean, by driving my estrogen levels down and my testosterone levels through the roof (as shown in blood tests!!), i naturally found myself having surges of libido etc.

I think this increase of testosterone caused this. Yet, i don’t have low testosterone. I simply found elevated sexual function via excessive testosterone.

Therefore it was an indirect cure. Kind of like pouring loads of petrol into a car with bad economy due to it needing a service. The car ran almost normal but only because of it getting far more petrol than before. The root causes, i.e. the problem with the engine etc, still remain before, during and after treatment.

That’s my interpretation of it, anyway. I feel this way, mainly because even at the height of things where i had ridiculous levels of testosterone, i never felt “cured”, i just felt a boost but it wasn’t like pre-fin, instead it was just a PFS version of me amped up with testosterone.

All that said, im feeling quite good lately and don’t actually need such treatments any more. Thank God.

#13

Wouldn’t a regular dose of Arimidex (or any other anti-estrogen) at .25 mg every other day or .125 mg every day be a low enough dose to successfully experiment with without dropping estradiol too low? I’m considering this route in the future but only after I try a few other possible treatments.

#14

ํYes Robocopp is taking 25 MG a day and states he is doing well. This is aromasin.

I have arimidex.

The problem with arimidex is.
It remains in your system for days.
It binds to the enzyme rather than removing it. Perhaps this could be a problem like aromataze could possibly regrow in important areas more quickly… (not sure)

But aromasin is in your body for only a short time. It removes some aromataze.

You could also try PES Erase, it is suppose to be more natrual. i have used it with success.

By using arimidex it is probably more easy to go too low. But I did have an almost full recovery on arimidex so it could be worth a try.

I would get the 3 (Erase - arimidex - aromasin)

And see which one works better for you.

I am using test PROP now. So if you do go too low it is easy to inject a bit more test.

In my opinion this is the closest to the core of the problem we can get.

You can also add larryh to this list.

#15

It depends on the person

I found armidex impossibly hard to control.

I started by taking .0125mg 3 times a week. I then increased that to 0.25 twice a week.

My levels went from high to really low from one reading to the next. THere was no way to control it. And unless you have tests pretty much every day, what happens when you’re really low and you keep taking it? Clearly not a good thing.

Tread carefully.

#16

Hi,

as we know Anastrozole (Ari) inhibits reversibly the aromatase enyzm. So more T will be reduced to DHT, which brings the positiv effects. But nearly everbody, who raises the DHT just have short time recoverys. The big problem with Ari is, that it inhibits the aromatase just for a short time and if you dont wean it of carefully, you can have the same sides, like with fin. because you body will get to much free E2. Are there realy people who recoverd by using Ari or clomid and not only for a short time? Are there realy people who get 100% recoverd by using TRT?
For many people here things get worse after raising the androgens. First good results, than things return to PFS mode or getting worse. Saddly each body reacts diff.
ATM I take nothing to raise T, and gues what? Things are getting better for me.

#17

Like mens rea i had great results having testosterone levels over the limit. It happened last summer on hcg 2000 u.l. and i happened this april on 250 m testosterone syringes. Now where are the problems? 1 hcg desesitized my testicles, i have hypogonadal testosterone levels because of hcg, so using hcg again gives no results because testicles can’t feel hcg stimulating them anymore.
2 I did three testosterone syringes lastly, the third of them has given me almost no results, maybe because estrogens are too high or maybe because my body got used so fast to external testosterone, who knows.
The point is how can i have my testosterone over the limit for a long time? It seems difficult to keep that situation for more than 2 weeks. As i wrote many times here i don’t want to heal from pfs, i just want to find something that fix my symptoms and i’ll be willing to use it all life long. Any clues?

#18

Before Fin, I would say, this is not posible. Now, anyway it´s not realy sure that HCG realy can desesitize the testicels.
HCG raises your T and E2 ( BB just take it only to make their balls bigger)
Same with clomid, Ari or TRT. All raises T, this works for a while and than fall off…
The more T (DHT)the more the body shuts down the reaction on it. Everybody here trys to push the T level up and does it work? nope, only for a few people.
Lower T levels, low DHT levels are just symptoms and not the Problem itself.
Here are People, who have normal T levels and bad symptoms and people who have low levels of t and are not so bad. Anyway T, E2, DHT etc in the serum bloodtest dont show the action on the cells. Even when you take T like a BB normaly after stopping the body needs 6-19 weeks to get back to the normal T levels. The BB in the past never used stuff like clomi or things like that.

Yes, a cure would be wonderfull, I always wonder, why those Merck suckers, are so stupid and dont help to find something, soon or later they wont make much more money with this, when more people on the world see, what can happen. So for them it would be great to have something, like, hey you can get bad sides, but if you get them we can cure it. lol But this wont happen.
Anyway, if I had a clue I wont be here. We need to support the research and work together. There are many many posible treatments and I have some Idears but I also need the help of the people here. We need more statistics of the stuff people use, whats helps, what not.
Like, when people use Tribulus it works of (just a number) 10% recover 70% does nothing or wore off and 20% get worse… and this for all the things people use here, and this is a lot, We will have a very very good view, what way we have to go. But this can only work, when the people here help, even for psycological things. There are many many studies in the web and some show great things in a test tube, but how a human body reacts on it can be totaly diff.
I only can repat, how IMPORTANT Clinicalstudies are!!! This is one thing we can do beside the running studies. It costs nothing, just time and will bring fast results, when everybody here helps. This can lead also to a treatment and also to a possible cure of this hell!

#19

Well, as I said, when I was on test 2. My blood e2 test looked ok, in range. I also did a siliva test and 2 of the estrogens were over range. This correlated to my symproms. Of course free E1,E2,E3 measures are important. Blood results are very hard to interperate. They do not measure free E2.

Check out this guy

He tried to lower his E2 but his e2 went way up.

We really need a test when we are feeling recovered and when we are feeling crap.

Atleast so far for me testosterone has cured my acne issue that occored 2 years after fin along with anxiety. It has also helped my joints.

It would be good if someone could to a siliva test for all the estrogens and test when they are feeling good and feeling bad. It would be interesting to see. I guess if there is little or no difference we are screwed.

#20

aussiegymjunkies.com/showthread.php?t=5713

This guy took 3mg aromasin every day and lowerd his e a little and upped his t a little.

Robocopp is on 25mg a day and says he is feeling good. He says he has no joint or bone problems.