I think PFS is Endocrine System disruption


@th0r_nike, indeed, i feel worse after sun exposures :slight_smile:
about honey, i can tolerate only raw acacia honey, cause is poor in glucose and high in fructose. I feel bad on high glucose and starchy stuff, like white patatoes, carrots, sugary fruits…

@Ozeph, do you really think our brain cells are physically destroyed? this would be terrible… is there any science supporting this claim? I don’t know… what about all those guys 100% recovered? we all know that brain cells are not like all the other cells, cannot regenerate… I really hope you are wrong… btw, antidepressants upregulate 3alphaHSD, but i’m not suggesting to take ad.
About glutathione, what do you think about my idea to find a way (preferably natural) to upregulate it as well as upregulate cyp3a4?
About the sage syntethic allo, i think is a bad idea. I read studies that demonstrate how allo produces tolerance to itself…


Quote: “Elevated levels of glutamate trigger the brain to release its natural opioids
(endorphins/enkephalins) in order to protect the brain from damage, which can result in
feelings of spaciness and eventually contribute to depletion of your natural opioids, and it also
depletes glutathione levels, which is vital for detoxification, controlling inflammation and gut
health. Additionally, glutathione also assists in protecting neurons from damage, so when it is
depleted it is not available to do this job and thus contributes to more cell death.”

Source: https://www.jacobsladdercenter.com/doc/research/other/How-to-Increase-GABA-and-Balance-Glutamate.pdf

But it doesn’t mean we have elevated levels of Glutamate, unless a blood test reveals so. Cortisol, Ephedrine, Nor-Ephedrine are all stress hormones. I was tested with high Cortisol.

Alcohol also kills brain cells. And I drank a lot ! The brain finds it way and activates unused cells. Apparently we have lots of spare ones and it seems we can grow new ones. I wouldnt worry too much about that. The drug Im taking to detox from Benzodiazepine (Gabapentin) does prevent new synapses to grow.

But our current symptoms are things to worry about.

There are 100% recoveries. Time does that, eventually the body find its balance.
I know a guy with pfs that got stuck with the same hormone imbalance for 19 years, then took amino acids and suddenly “unjammed” his imbalance and started getting better. This is why I conducted tests, with a good degree of success, on amino acids.

It’s a great idea to find a natural way to boost Glutathione and cyp3a4. Let me in on your findings !
Glutathione is metabolized from the amino acid Cysteine. Cysteine is relatively limited in our diet. But liver and dairies have high levels of it.
I once crashed on Cysteine from eating liver and taking a whey protein isolate shake. Too much Cysteine can be harmful so I take Glutathione supplements.

Too bad about SAGE217. I may be healed before it reaches where I live anyway.

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I started studying the cyp3a4 issue mainly because i wanted to avoid foods which inhibit it and take foods which upregulate it. What i found was that there are some contradictory infos about it: some foods were both reported to inhibit and to enhance it! What it’s sure is that furanocoumarins, substances mainly found in various citrus fruits, consistently inhibit (and grapefruit can even stop for 1/2 weeks!) the cyp3a4 production.
What i got about that abandoned research, are studies and my notes (i tried to make a list of anti and pro cyp3a4 foods). How can i help? Are you interested in both studies and notes (notes are in italian).

All i know is that a guy took n-acetyl-cysteine and now is almost fully recovered.

Are you the guy who started experimenting with amino acids? Your idea is not new to me, i found something similar on the forum that should not be named. They use the tei (trace elements). The idea is that fixing the trace elements will fix the amino acids, hormones… everything.


If you don’t mind explaining to me, what does cyp3a4 exactly and why is it important for us ?

I never took n-acetyl-cysteine but I took high levels of Cysteine along with 500 mg of Glutathione everyday for 6-8 months. I would’n stop Glutathione.

There’s a few of us that experiment with Amino acids. I probably am the one you’re referring to as I did a whole thread on the subject and tried just about every one I could find, and sorted them in 3 categories: Good, neutral and bad.
I should also point out that I never took amino acids alone. I also supplemented them with specific vitamins and minerals including: Magnesium, Calcium, Potassium, Zinc, Copper, Boron, Iodine, Selenium, Lithium and others.

I crashed 1 year and 2 weeks ago. I’ve been on a zero carbs diet for 11 months. I’m slowly coming off of it now and integrating low glycemic carbs and colorful fruits and veggies in my diet. I started taking aminos a little over 6 months (with vitamins and minerals) and at the moment and for the last 4 months or so, I’ve been symptom free except for insomnia, on which I’m working now. (although with sleeping aids, I get normal nights).


I got myself those two herb extracts:


They increase brain protection (boost Glutathione among others) and regeneration. I think you may find it interesting.


my first prolonged recoveries were from Cysteine and histidine combo. got everything back and it lasted for months with continued use. even after stopping it seemed to stick until I messed around with 5htp for sleep and got back on minox. gave me a crash and it was hard coming back from. I’ll probably cycle it again soon.

this leads me to believe it was 100% epigenetic. NAC turned back on the epigenetic switch for me. everything reversed in days. it seemed too good to be true. I managed to turn it back off and haven’t found the same results with NAC since. when I went traveling the effects were even more profound. a lot of people report recoveries while traveling, and there is evidence that traveling changes neural pathways on an epigenetic level. some of our bodies are probably just missing very small things that are holding us back that cause a lot of downstream effects.


@Ozeph @Quest @Go_Faster_Sonic @th0r_nike @orthogs This may have been touched on already, but I have this idea/theory that there’s a bend/break component to PFS. That, for whatever reason, some guys have an unstable gut, neural, or endocrine system that is ready to be disrupted. This is apparent, as a small percentage of guys get PFS. However, some see improvement and ultimately recover, if not 100%, a solid amount. Another portion, as you can see on the forum, see no improvement in some systems and actually get worse over time. I believe that the ones with the stronger, more stable systems see a bend, or “flex” when the 5ar enzyme is disrupted, but the system is not completely broken. That is, over time and providing the right, ideal conditions, these guys are able to see improvement and ultimately recover. Other guys, with weaker and less stable biomes, neural chemistry, and endocrine systems, their systems get completely broken and shifted by the 5ar disruption. And when that happens, I am not sure if there truly is a way to bounce back. This is just what was on my mind. Purely speculation.


No powders? Are extracts better?


You would make a tea with the powder. Then, if you filtered the solids left after and evaporated the water, the residue would be an extract. Extracts are usually more potent than just turning into powder the interesting part of the plant.

I think people have pre-dispositions to pfs. I don’t think the damage is irreversible although for some, the time and right, ideal conditions have to be tuned in even further.

I’m currently studying brain cell regeneration in the Hyppocampus area. People can say there is damage elsewhere in the body but in my opinion, considering that people get pretty much in the same state with anti-depressant, whatever drug was taken unbalanced the neural and endocrine system (the guts having lots of neurons as well as most of the serotonin) and that is the source of it all.

Initially it could be too much serotonin (with SSRI) or not enough GABA (with fin) but the end result is the Hypophysis and Hypothalamus are not regulated and those are the ones regulating hormones, neurotransmitters (Enzymes, neuropeptides, neurosteroids etc…). So from that point on, it’s like having a truck driven by a monkey. Our hormones and neurotransmitters range all over the spectrum until we get stuck in an uncomfortable, somewhat stable balance that is easy to upset.

Good news, I believe specific diets, exercises and supplements can be undertaken to correct the imbalances, generate new cells in the Hyppocampus area and improve the overall health. If I was in the US, I would visit a Daniel Amen clinic. He does brain scans (as a matter of fact, he’s the world’s leading psychiatrist doing brain scan) and has a balanced approach to fix the problem that mostly focus on diets, exercise and supplements, along with some changes in attitudes and thinking habits, leaving drugs only for the most urgent and extreme symptoms.

I suggest doing some research on Dr. Daniel Amen. There’s a lots of videos, articles and books by him.


Yes but every case is so different. Like mine, I’ve had complete androgen shutdown. Steady, spasmic twitches in my muscles, and my skin is foreign, there’s actually little subcutaneous lumps underneath my skin, you can squeeze them and they almost “crunch”. Skin has a rubbery, fake texture to it. When I do light exercise like jogging, I’ll sweat underneath my armpits and my back, but my belly and arms just have a cold, clammy feel to them, like there’s a bloodflow issue or something. My actual skin complexion has also changed. I used to have more of a tan, natural looking skin tone (i’ve always been pale), but now it is more of a artificial, dead looking pale color. Like it just doesn’t look natural. I don’t see which diets or supplements can allow my body to fix such a thing. I want more than anything to believe that I can heal from this and be normal again, but I just don’t see how. The change is so severe.


@Ozeph What is very interesting is that since day 1 of my crash, 8 months ago, I have had steady, horrible smelling gas. Lots of stomach rumbling when I eat pretty much anything. Most of the things I eat, I have a neurological reaction to. So I have a constant cognitive brain fog that never really goes away, almost like a derealization, where you feel slightly misplaced from everything and it feels like you’re 50-70% actually there. When I eat different foods, especially sugars and carbs, this foggy feeling intensifies. It is very interesting that all of these things are interconnected.


Well, just to give you examples of what I’ve learned in my research and experiment in the last year, and I don’t mean to say I’m right. I’ll just mention how what your describing translate to me:

“I’ve had complete androgen shutdown. Steady, spasmic twitches in my muscles”: Low GABA resulting in unregulated Hypophysis, which resulted in androgen shutdown. “skin problems of all sorts”: Some enzyme not being produced as a result of the endocrine / neuronal system being imbalanced. “horrible smelling gas, lots of stomach rumbling”: obviously an imbalance of the biodome, Serotonin and Acetyl-Choline involved. Vagus nerve deregulated. “Most of the things I eat, I have a neurological reaction to”: need for a restrictive diet until things get better. “Brain fog, derealization especially with especially sugars and carbs”: The diet need to restrict sugar and carbs. Overall symptoms translate to me in: Lack of Tyrosine, Dopamine, GABA, Serotonin, Choline (and Acetyl-Choline).

If you also have the following, it would further confirm, IMO, this hypothesis:

Lack of GABA: you also have anxiety, problem sleeping.
Lack of Dopamine: You have lack of motivation, you feel like procrastinating all the time, no sex drive.
Lack of Serotonin: You’re feeling depress, unsure of yourself. Maybe also insecure when around people and not assertive with people.
Lack of Tyrosine: Low focus, simple tasks become complicated and already mentioned brain fog.
Lack of Acetyl-Choline: Food doesn’t go down easy, stay in stomach. Bowel movement is slow.

Now I’m not saying all of this is true, I’m just expressing, according to what I believe I have learned in the last year, what I think is the cause for all the aforementioned symptoms. I might be wrong.

But if there’s truth into that and I would have the same symptoms, I would know what kind of diet and supplements to try. I can’t say it would cure me, but I believe I could get myself to feel better and have less symptoms.

So I still believe diet, exercise, attitude and supplements, in that order, are powerful tools to alleviate pfs symptoms. One thing for sure, if I was you, I would stop sugar and limit carbs as much as possible and replace the calories missing with saturated fat or coconut oil, as well as lots of protein. If you try go easy into it and see how you feel along the way.

I’m now leaving to a birthday party where I will have plenty of carbs. 10 months ago, this would have triggered lots of symptoms. Today I probably won’t have any (although I will not stuff myself with sugar)

Update: I had too much sugar and had some anxiety, but it was very mild. Later on, I took Ashwagandha and Bacopa along with 5-HTP, L-Dopa and Tyrosine and I’m now focus, clear minded confident and motivated. A bit tired but it’s 7:30pm and I will sleep in 2 hours.


The problem that I have with your theory is that my symptoms where opposite. after stopping saw palmetto I had sleep issues and anxiety, after I took magnesium I was at peace calmed and relaxed. I had emotional bluntness, I had lack of fear I didn’t feel afraid. my fiend tried to scare me one time by jumping in from of me with a mask and I didn’t feel a thing not startled not anything. this feeling stayed with me for almost a year now. I think this is because of adrenal issue.
This is what i think pfs is:
It is and endocrine disruption by the drug some mechanism/mechanisms where affected (different from people to people) where it got overloaded and got messed up. it takes time and right diet to make tings working properly.
what i think is that stomach doesn’t takes in enough/all nutrients and the body responds by this differently.
keto diet helped lot of people.
fasting helped lot of people.
Time helped lot of people.

For you @ Dknighten i think your adrenalin glands reacted, they are pumping out stress hormones (this is my opinion and i might not be right) this is why you are heaving sleep problems and estrogen issues. I read that cortisol converts testosterone into estrogen. fasting should lower your hormones including estrogen. I noticed that you had a high testosterone and that could be the reason why you have high estrogen. you have more testosterone to be converted into estrogen.
try magnesium 150 mg this is 50% of the DV it is good for lot of things in body.

best of luck to you brother. I know how you feel I remember the dreadful feeling and I want to tell you that I am sleeping better and I am getting stronger/better erections. you took one pill i took 450mg saw palmetto for 21 or 25 days. you will be better. try relaxing and fasting and see how it helps.



  • Sure. Cyp3a4 is one of those enzymes responsible for oxidizing foreign toxins, to say it easily, is a detox enzyme. Mainly found in the liver and in the intestine, is waht detoxes us from almost all the medications we take including… finasteride.
    Finasteride is eliminated from our bodies by two enzymes, first cyp3a4 and then aldehyde dehydrogenase.
    Despite i didn’t finsh my researches, is evident how important cyp3a4 is. Is our main detox enzymes, it consitutes a detx channel and that channel must be kept open. Not only to eliminated fin (i suppose we still have it inside) but eliminate everythin (many of us use meds, drugs, supplements).
    Another thing i suppose is that fin can inhibit it’s own metabolism, maybe inhibiting cyp3a4 but for sure inhibiting other things like 5-beta reductase (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19515843), binding glutathione- transferase and nadph (i read about this theory on that other forum and might be true, since some guys recover when taking n-acetyl-cysteine).

  • Did you notice anything taking cysteine and glutathione?

  • are ashwagandha and bacopa 5ari’s? i hope no…

  • yes, i also think that the right diet, exercise and attitude can solve pfs, and i also think that some of us have a predisposition, for example i was pretty much obsessive on my own. if we could accept hair loss, we wouldn’t have taken fin. :stuck_out_tongue:

  • you know what other thing seems to help? i know a guy who’s claiming good results with it’s kinesiologist.

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Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense. The liver always gets hit with drugs, because they are unatural molecules the liver is not made to deal with them. Many drugs do liver damage.

I took Cysteine and Glutathione early on after I crashed. Maybe 3-4 months. I kept my mind sharp all along. Glutathione prevents high levels of Cortisol or Glutamate from doing damage to the brain. So I can’t say it made a noticeable change but I’m sure it did its job at protecting the brain. One thing I’m sure, it didn’t do damage: I didn’t feel bad with it. As a matter of fact, I still take 500 mg Glutathione every day.

ashwagandha and bacopa raises sex drive and promote sexual hormones, especially for men. I don’t know if they are 5ari, but I doubt it. If they prevented testosterone transformation into DHT, it would have negative impact on male sexuality and it is claimed to do the opposite.

I would lose my hair in exchange for losing this disease anytime. Sure thing !


Your case is similar to mine. I stopped fin, had severe anxiety and insomnia, along with many other symptoms (but those two were the most hurtful).

I took magnesium, 450 mg a day, still take it every day, and I was on a ketogenic diet for 11 months, doing intermittent fasting for some time. Now I’m on a paleo diet so I can eat colorful fruits and veggies while still being low carbs. Almost all symptoms are gone except insomnia, but it’s better.
If I eat lots of sugar, I still get anxiety.

I think we have a similar theory, we’re just expressing it in a different way. And I agree, every body ends up with different symptoms and reacts differently.


sorry for this off-topic guy but, do you also get this notification when posting?


For the magnesium, citrate and malate, etc, is all the same isnt it? Just dissolve the powder into water. After the reaction to Betaine I’m hesitant to try anything


Thanks for the info Kan! Can you share your sources as a 5ari?


Can’t find it now, I remember that some years ago I took it and after I crashed I looked for more information and if I am not mistaken I found that it was a 5ar inhibitor. But I can’t find it now and my PFS memory is not great, so it could be the case that I am wrong.