I think PFS is Endocrine System disruption

General Discussion
#1

I think the fact that PFS sufferers are about 1.6% who take the drug is telling us something.
our symptoms are very different and some people are recovering by strange ways should make us look at our endocrine system.
Liver - where all the drugs and foods are metabolized. (it is why fasting helps)
Blood - it is responsible for sending nutrients and chemicals to our body.
Digestive system - It is home to trillions of bacteria that are beneficial/harmful fore us. (studies show poop transplant can cure depression and anxiety)

This is why I am writing the post because of Sonics discovery.

Go_Faster_Sonic

Dec '18

excuse me guys but i just thought this. finasteride, as many other drugs “is extensively metabolized in the liver, first byhydroxylation via CYP3A4 and then by aldehyde dehydrogenase.[1]”. this was from wikipedia.

what if we still have fin inside, in the liver, and all we should do is to upregulate those two enzymes?

Liver
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awor
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I don’t know much I am not a doctor bio student but this seems to explain lot of mysteries about our problems. #1 suspect is liver it is where all drugs and foods are metabolized. symptoms like bone loss or skin issues can be explained better here our drug caused liver enzyme depletion and foods that we take can no longer be metabolized by the liver properly and we are in an cycle of the mess that we are.

I for one garlic, honey, fasting, meat only diet and exercise affects me in a very positive way. garlic and fasting are related to liver metabolism of drugs/food, if you don’t eat anything liver doesn’t have to metabolize anything so it is building up enzymes.

I am sorry it is messy and not organized property, I wanted to write this yesterday and I didn’t because what would other who know more about PFS would say or think but time goes on and people are suffering and I hope that we will find a cure.

Thank you Sonic all the credit is yours

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#2

Hi there.
These days i’m very stressed and right now i don’t have time nor will to read the full study (i read so many studies these days that i feel tired) so… would you be so nice to tell me what the study says? What’s the relationship between vit. D and and the cyp3a4?

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#3

I just found out that i started searching more info about this issue but i stopped for some reason.
btw there’s another thing in my opinion that we should look at: the GLUTATHIONE.
I know a guy who healed by taking NAC (n-acetycysteine), which is a glutathione inducer.

#4

This can be truth because since I started taking finasteride, I remember that my liver problems started. It lasted several years. Now I especially pay attention to the liver. I can not take some medicines because of liver pain. I associate my improvement with artichoke and also with the disappearance of polyps from the gall bladder. I did an ultrasound every now and then.

#5

I forgot, I stopped drinking alcohol, which I abused earlier.

#6

Hello Sonic after I made this post I read some studies and I didn’t post them here. this is one
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3549031/

in short Vit D is by lot of organs including the liver. in the liver Vit D is used to make cyp3a4 and this enzyme metabolizes Drugs/Foods whatever you eat gets to liver and is metabolized by liver.

Perhaps this is why we have Vitamin D deficiency. as you know Vit D deficiency can alter with calcium absorption and many other necessary functions in the human body.

I was spending lot of time in the forum reading this week and I read lot of posts complaints and very terrible symptoms that people have.

This is my theory and it is just a theory but What if the metabolism of this drug was too much for our liver and our liver produces insufficient enzymes to digest some of the foods that we eat. what if liver has hard time absorbing vitamin D that we take by mouth.

This could explain crashes that we get one week you are good the next you are not. crash by foods, bone loss, hair color change. the list goes on but some people are affected differently in different forms because of duration of the drug that was taken and organ strength was different and drug affected some organs before the others.

For me I have noticed the emotional bluntness and fearlessness I wouldn’t get startled no mater how surprising/scary someone tried to be. my hear rhythm was before drug very noticeable and after it was faint. I believe it is something wrong with adrenalin glands. heart beat increases after I take honey and when I bathe in sun. I have started to take vitamin D 5,000 and I sit in sun for 30 minutes when I can and I notice hart pounding just like before drug. I also started to eat liver like chicken liver.

#7

wait, are you saying that you feel better, like almost turning back to normal, when you take sun baths and vitamin d and honey?
sorry, on sunday i have my weekly fast and even understanding simple things becomes difficult. :stuck_out_tongue:

my theory is almost the same. i write “almost” because i think that finasteride can inhibit it’s own metabolism, building up.

#8

Yes I feel like I am becoming (normal). Garlic, Exercise and Honey, not sugars, sugar does nothing for me.
Firs time I felt better was in January 7 Sunday I watched a hot woman in the street and my dragon went up, I didn’t know why this happened than I gave it a tought and the only thing that I ate out of normal was sweet that had honey in it. so I tested it out and it worked I have tested it few times now and its been consistently improving my libido. I don’t know why.

2 weeks ago I was feeling very good and I wanted to write here that I was about 90% recovered. my libido was good and I had very easy arousals and I felt my orgasm very instance and enjoyable. but I told my self it would be good if I waited. during the week it decreased a little but I could get soft erections thinking about woman. but last week I was in a lot of stress and I exercised and slept little long story short I was back to my old self. I think stress is very bad for recovery and lack of sleep.

I tried not to take any pills even vitamins I had a blood test in February 22 and everything was normal only low vitamin D. so I take my shirt off and sit in front of the window for 1 hour. I don’t know if Vit D helps or not I know I am deficient in vitamin d. so I started to take pills.

I felt aggression started 2-3 weeks ago and I mean I was feeling aggressive and emotionally tough and strong minded I liked it went away last week when I didn’t go to sleep early. I also noticed my penis not as numb like it was 6-7 month ago. it feels really normal and when I touch it a little it gets soft like a meat and I think it is a good sign because it means blood is trying to feel it up. It feels more sensation balls are hanging lower and bigger.

I think it is stress, liver, adrenalin, blood and gut.
I have experienced recovery with antibiotics. - lasted 1-2 days
I have experienced recovery after blood test. lasted 1 week
honey recovery (I think it could be adrenalin issue)- lasts 3-4 days

I don’t know sonic it is different for everyone. the way I like to think is imagen you body as a car and you drive it off road. everyone has different cars (meaning body). you don’t know what will happen to different cars if the go on a bad road. some get flat tire and some get some other damage. so I don’t know but I think that it is endocrine system that got messed up but what I don’t know.

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#9

That’s interesting.

I’m looking at it from another angle: The destruction of Allopregnanolone. Allo is a steroid that regulates GABA which in turn regulates the hypothalamus which regulates the whole hormonal system and connects it to the nervous system.

Allo is metabolized from Progesterone using 5ar and 3a-HSD. Pfs patient have been shown to have the lowest levels of Allo. It’s almost completely destroyed and does not seem to come back.

Without Allo, GABA is out of track, the hypotalamus is unregulated which means it throws all hormones off track as well.

Low GABA results in high Glutamate, which lower Glutathione and damages brain cells.

Together, low GABA and high Glutamate means anxiety, panic attack, insomnia, brain fog, feeling thirsty, frequent urination, feeling cold, having spasm and much more.

GABA also regulates our reproductive function: sex drive, sexual hormones etc… So unregulated GABA could range from Hyper sexuality to no sex drive, erections and sensitivity. I’ve had all of that.

But I think if GABA fluctuates up and down while Glutamate is more steady, Glutamate will eventually win the balance and tip it over to low GABA / high Glutamate.

Glutamate is the main excitatory neurotransmitter while GABA in the main inhibitory one.

When SAGE217 comes out, we’ll see the importance of lack of Allopregnanolone in pfs sufferers.

Just want to bring another angle.

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#10

I sure hope so.

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#11

"And unlike other hormonal supplements, according to AletrisCenter.com there are no risks associated with this use of progesterone."

"Progesterone is a reproductive hormone. Its main involvement in the human body, for both men and women, concerns the reproductive system. It has many general effects in both men and women, including helping to reduce anxiety and making it easier to fall asleep, building and maintaining strong bones and slowing down the digestive process."

I don’t know how true this is but it doesn’t really explain recoveries that people have over time or does it?
I have experienced low anxiety and calmness off of the drug. opposite from what we would see on low GABA / high Glutamate.

You are clearly more informed than me but don’t you think it a very big stretch how wide the symptoms are and how people have improved and feel better. lets not forget the people how take the drug for years and are able to live without noticing a thing. and we have a guy who took 1 pill and is in this shit.

I am sure you are right about hormones being affected and it creates an imbalance of some kind and we don’t know. I am sorry I don’t believe in permanent damage.

#12

I don’t believe in permanent damage either. My sentence was too strong, I meant “doesn’t seem to come back in short or medium terms.”

I’ve read of people getting benefits from Progesterone creams. I think I will try it.

Progesterone helps to reduce anxiety and make it easier to fall asleep because it transforms into Allopregnanolone, which has a strong anti-stress effect by itself, not mentioning it’s effect on Gaba which is definitely a stress reliever.

But for this to happen, it needs 2 enzymes: the 5ar and the 3a-HSD (some sources mention 3b-HSD).
Apparently, we still have 5ar because many of us have normal DHT and it takes 5ar to transform T into DHT. But it seems fin have affected more severely the 3a-HSD which goes missing months and years after stopping fin.

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#13

@th0r_nike, indeed, i feel worse after sun exposures :slight_smile:
about honey, i can tolerate only raw acacia honey, cause is poor in glucose and high in fructose. I feel bad on high glucose and starchy stuff, like white patatoes, carrots, sugary fruits…

@Ozeph, do you really think our brain cells are physically destroyed? this would be terrible… is there any science supporting this claim? I don’t know… what about all those guys 100% recovered? we all know that brain cells are not like all the other cells, cannot regenerate… I really hope you are wrong… btw, antidepressants upregulate 3alphaHSD, but i’m not suggesting to take ad.
About glutathione, what do you think about my idea to find a way (preferably natural) to upregulate it as well as upregulate cyp3a4?
About the sage syntethic allo, i think is a bad idea. I read studies that demonstrate how allo produces tolerance to itself…

#14

Quote: “Elevated levels of glutamate trigger the brain to release its natural opioids
(endorphins/enkephalins) in order to protect the brain from damage, which can result in
feelings of spaciness and eventually contribute to depletion of your natural opioids, and it also
depletes glutathione levels, which is vital for detoxification, controlling inflammation and gut
health. Additionally, glutathione also assists in protecting neurons from damage, so when it is
depleted it is not available to do this job and thus contributes to more cell death.”

Source: https://www.jacobsladdercenter.com/doc/research/other/How-to-Increase-GABA-and-Balance-Glutamate.pdf

But it doesn’t mean we have elevated levels of Glutamate, unless a blood test reveals so. Cortisol, Ephedrine, Nor-Ephedrine are all stress hormones. I was tested with high Cortisol.

Alcohol also kills brain cells. And I drank a lot ! The brain finds it way and activates unused cells. Apparently we have lots of spare ones and it seems we can grow new ones. I wouldnt worry too much about that. The drug Im taking to detox from Benzodiazepine (Gabapentin) does prevent new synapses to grow.

But our current symptoms are things to worry about.

There are 100% recoveries. Time does that, eventually the body find its balance.
I know a guy with pfs that got stuck with the same hormone imbalance for 19 years, then took amino acids and suddenly “unjammed” his imbalance and started getting better. This is why I conducted tests, with a good degree of success, on amino acids.

It’s a great idea to find a natural way to boost Glutathione and cyp3a4. Let me in on your findings !
Glutathione is metabolized from the amino acid Cysteine. Cysteine is relatively limited in our diet. But liver and dairies have high levels of it.
I once crashed on Cysteine from eating liver and taking a whey protein isolate shake. Too much Cysteine can be harmful so I take Glutathione supplements.

Too bad about SAGE217. I may be healed before it reaches where I live anyway.

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#15

Cyp3a4
I started studying the cyp3a4 issue mainly because i wanted to avoid foods which inhibit it and take foods which upregulate it. What i found was that there are some contradictory infos about it: some foods were both reported to inhibit and to enhance it! What it’s sure is that furanocoumarins, substances mainly found in various citrus fruits, consistently inhibit (and grapefruit can even stop for 1/2 weeks!) the cyp3a4 production.
What i got about that abandoned research, are studies and my notes (i tried to make a list of anti and pro cyp3a4 foods). How can i help? Are you interested in both studies and notes (notes are in italian).

Glutathione
All i know is that a guy took n-acetyl-cysteine and now is almost fully recovered.

Aminoacids
Are you the guy who started experimenting with amino acids? Your idea is not new to me, i found something similar on the forum that should not be named. They use the tei (trace elements). The idea is that fixing the trace elements will fix the amino acids, hormones… everything.

#16

If you don’t mind explaining to me, what does cyp3a4 exactly and why is it important for us ?

I never took n-acetyl-cysteine but I took high levels of Cysteine along with 500 mg of Glutathione everyday for 6-8 months. I would’n stop Glutathione.

There’s a few of us that experiment with Amino acids. I probably am the one you’re referring to as I did a whole thread on the subject and tried just about every one I could find, and sorted them in 3 categories: Good, neutral and bad.
I should also point out that I never took amino acids alone. I also supplemented them with specific vitamins and minerals including: Magnesium, Calcium, Potassium, Zinc, Copper, Boron, Iodine, Selenium, Lithium and others.

I crashed 1 year and 2 weeks ago. I’ve been on a zero carbs diet for 11 months. I’m slowly coming off of it now and integrating low glycemic carbs and colorful fruits and veggies in my diet. I started taking aminos a little over 6 months (with vitamins and minerals) and at the moment and for the last 4 months or so, I’ve been symptom free except for insomnia, on which I’m working now. (although with sleeping aids, I get normal nights).

#17

I got myself those two herb extracts:

They increase brain protection (boost Glutathione among others) and regeneration. I think you may find it interesting.

#18

my first prolonged recoveries were from Cysteine and histidine combo. got everything back and it lasted for months with continued use. even after stopping it seemed to stick until I messed around with 5htp for sleep and got back on minox. gave me a crash and it was hard coming back from. I’ll probably cycle it again soon.

this leads me to believe it was 100% epigenetic. NAC turned back on the epigenetic switch for me. everything reversed in days. it seemed too good to be true. I managed to turn it back off and haven’t found the same results with NAC since. when I went traveling the effects were even more profound. a lot of people report recoveries while traveling, and there is evidence that traveling changes neural pathways on an epigenetic level. some of our bodies are probably just missing very small things that are holding us back that cause a lot of downstream effects.

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#19

@Ozeph @Quest @Go_Faster_Sonic @th0r_nike @orthogs This may have been touched on already, but I have this idea/theory that there’s a bend/break component to PFS. That, for whatever reason, some guys have an unstable gut, neural, or endocrine system that is ready to be disrupted. This is apparent, as a small percentage of guys get PFS. However, some see improvement and ultimately recover, if not 100%, a solid amount. Another portion, as you can see on the forum, see no improvement in some systems and actually get worse over time. I believe that the ones with the stronger, more stable systems see a bend, or “flex” when the 5ar enzyme is disrupted, but the system is not completely broken. That is, over time and providing the right, ideal conditions, these guys are able to see improvement and ultimately recover. Other guys, with weaker and less stable biomes, neural chemistry, and endocrine systems, their systems get completely broken and shifted by the 5ar disruption. And when that happens, I am not sure if there truly is a way to bounce back. This is just what was on my mind. Purely speculation.

#20

No powders? Are extracts better?