Finasteride causes glutathione depletion and leads to CFS?

General Discussion
#128

@Droit,

Yes actually i began feeling sick again because i stopped NAC completely, thinking that i support my methylation cycle by receiving all of these supplements (TMG, B12, Phosphatidylserine, etc) and also getting NAC on top of that was way too much.

I’ve also read about the fact that several people may have an adverse reaction to NAC namely those with CBS up regulation/BHMT down regulation. It seems that i am not the case because NAC helps me - but 23andme test will tell for sure.

My situation could be that for some reason other than a methylation block i do not produce enough glutathione. So far, sulfur-rich foods never made me feel worse but instead reduced my attacks (Red Bell Peppers contain high amounts of cysteine). Several entries on the web state that boosting just Glutathione levels solves many problems and it appears that for me this is true.

I totally agree with you in the sense that i am trying different things which could make matters worse. Unfortunately it appears that i cannot have the Methylation Pathway test. The only European Center is in the Netherlands and at this point i cannot arrange to take a trip there - This test needs a blood sample which requires me to be close to where the lab is.

I will start again with the basics. The reason for trying out the methylation block theory was in order to find the root cause of my problems. 23andme results will show whether i have any gene mutations and then i will take it from there.

For the record : My current regimen is NAC, Magnesium, Vitamin C, Alpha-Lipoic Acid and Selenium. Everything i listed help Glutathione production and recycling. Started sleeping great again, libido almost to 100%.

Droit, Thanks again, i really appreciate your help.

#129

After a month of on/off NAC supplementation I am pretty certain it gives me a super run-down feeling, almost flu-like feeling.

#130

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: mariovitali has had quick success with NAC which may seem appealing, but he is the exception, not the rule. This thread is about increasing glutathione via the methylation protocol which does not include high dose NAC.

@moonman1,

We don’t have a Methylation Panel from you, but from what I’ve seen from your lab results, it looks like you may be a home run for a methylation block. Here’s what I’ve seen from your posts that is most relevant to this thread,

From your Metametrix Organic Acids test:

  1. You have very high lipid peroxidaes: 2.38 nmol/mL on a range of < 1.72. Which means you are under high oxidative stress and your cells are not containing it. Which suggests depleted glutathione.

Further, because this is a direct measure measurement of oxidative degradation of lipids, you probably have membrane damage which means: leaking folates and mitrochondrial dysfunction (ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11182537).

  1. You have very high forminoglutamic acid (FIGLU) metametrixinstitute.org/post … tatus.aspx).

Active folate is the root source of methyl groups for the rest of the system. Without it, you are blocked.

  1. The low active folate marker is not surprising given you have 2 mutations you have in MTHFR:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7293&hilit=folate#p65035

  1. Like many of the genomic data points I’ve seen, you also have a lot of BHMT mutations. They are not as well researched as the MTHFR mutations, but I think the obliterated BHMT is going to be important as we get more data.

Based on these parameters I think Chris Kresser would say you’re contestant for a ‘methylation block’ on the Methylation Panel.

I recommend listening to the Chris Kresser podcast linked in the first post of this thread again. He mentions that high FIGLU, MTHFR mutations and markers for oxidative stress.

As always: this is just my interpretation from what I’ve read. Only testing and working with a professional would tell you for sure.

If you do try the simplified methylation protocol, I would slowly titrate up on the dose.

Also, you’ve remarked that you’ve tried Folinic Acid Drops, B12 drops. Folinic acid is good. But you have a MTHFR mutation which means you won’t quickly make the folate you need: Methyl-folate. With the B12, you have to make sure not to ingest it. It needs to absorb in the tissue.

Let me know if you have any questions.

#131

As I said I had an averse reaction to NAC, but in the back of my mind I had the thought “you always get worse before you get better”…

Read this and it makes me think that even more now…

I did not add in my previous post that my stools have looked different while on NAC, they were light green/grey/brown. My stools NEVER change color.

The part that is contradictory is that my homo-cystein and pyrogultimate levels are fine… :open_mouth: How do we explain that?

Also my a-hydroxybutrate is high, which could be a factor in my high oxidation stress.
plosone.org/article/info%3Ad … ne.0010883

#132

In the beginning of my treatment, I also felt worse, meaning anxiety increased, which was a sign of more testosteron being produced and thus more estrogen. Pushing my zinc dose from 5mg up to 20mg completly solved that problem.

Interestingly I have the same effect with fishoil -> increased anxiety which can be handled with more zinc and broccoli -> anxiety gone -> sleep better.

At least thats my theory :laughing:

#133

moonman1,

The idea that you feel worst before you feel better is completely 100% inline with what everyone says who does this protocol and has been sick for a long time.

Searching for ‘flu like systems’ on phoenix rising will probably turn dozens of hits. Its called ‘start up’ symptoms. Or the ‘detox’ phase. Some people do include activated charcoal in their treatment to conjugate up the toxins. When you start you can lose a lot of confidence in what you’re doing. That’s why I’m advocating we get more testing so people can feel more confident in the investment.

It sounds like your starting to gain interest in this protocol given your data. So I want to emphasis something important. If you’re getting hooked on the NAC route, you should look at making sure you have the raw materials to stimulate the methylation cycle and produce glutathione. And that’s active B12, active folate and general support via a B-Complex.

Otherwise if you make gains, they won’t persist. And further you might get worst from drawing what little raw materials you have toward glutathione.

I still continue to be against high dose NAC, but I’m all for the different experiments people are doing. We just have to stick to something consistent so we can find out if these treatments are good or bad for us.

About your normal homocystiene, I’ll quote Dr. Van Konynenburg who saw hundreds of methylatlion panel results in the CFS community.

forums.phoenixrising.me/index.ph … ency.5562/

#134

Received my order of TMG 500mg, the Enzymatc Therapy B12 Methylcobalamin 1mg and Source Naturals Dibencozide (Adenosylcobalamin) 10mg.

Will take the TMG, methylfolate 1mg and a quarter tablet of Dibencozide (10mg seems a bit much) in the morning… and take one ET B12 before lunch. Mix in a mag citrate and a couple fish oil caps in the day as well.

I’m hoping the TMG and Dibencozide helps with some back soreness and a bit of eczema.

#135

I am slightly worried about jumping straight into MTHFR supplementation. According to Dr Yako you are supposed to treat the SNP mutations in the following order…

  1. SHMT/ACAT
  2. CBS
  3. MTHFR
  4. MTR/MTRR
  5. BHMT
  6. MAO A
  7. SUOX
  8. NOS
  9. VDR

heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm

#136

I just want to add my 2 cents on this. Whenever i would start NAC i would feel like as if i am about to get sick (my mother also had the same effect when she started). This faded away in a couple of days - at least for me. I started slowly : 200mg at the beginning then slowly upped my dosage within a week. At the moment i am taking 1000 mg of NAC (600 mg at 9:00 am, 400mg at 9:00 pm)

#137

Does the Methylation Pathways Panel include a test for CBS? I had a bad experience with NAC so based on previous posts it seems I could be at risk for CBS. Where do you go to get a test like this done. I looked up the Methylation Pathways Panel online thru Health Diagnostics and you needed a doctor to order it.

#138

ding ding ding. i’ve said this a few times, you need to be treating CBS FIRST… this is why some people here are not having success imo.

#139

This is one place I disagree with Bryce54, at least at the beginning. I am homozygous for the bad CBS which should elevate ammonia and sulfites. From my testing I don’t have either. I think its because I was so far down the hole nothing was running to even create those metabolites.

Yasko has a lot of experience, so I wouldn’t dare go against her. But I think the data from the Van Konynenburg trial is interesting.

They put everyone on the ‘simplified protocol’ no matter what the genome, and they tracked the success of people with no CBS mutations and then with 1 and 2 mutations. The more mutations, the worst off they started, but in 6 months everyone got in range.

See Figure 4 in the trial paper.

maartensz.org/me/RESOURCES/N … upport.PDF

@Bryce54, was it you or Moonman1 who got the personalized methylation report? What did they change for you?

#140

BadLuck,

That’s correct, you do need a doctor/nutritionist to order it. You can probably call them and see who is registered with the lab in your area.

Health Diagnostics and Research Institute
540 Bordentown Avenue, Suite 4930
South Amboy, NJ 08879
Phone: (732) 721-1234

To answer your other question, the panel does not include genetic data such as what mutations you have in CBS. It is a blood test that tells you lab values of the main metabolites in the Methylation Cycle.

The Methylation Panel, is the most import test in determining whether or not you have the state we’re discussing in this thread. Otherwise you’re in the dark. The genetic data you can get from 23andMe can be helpful from there in terms of determining the best treatment plan.

#141

I see, so the option for me would be

  1. getting the Methylation Pathways Panel from that dutch laboratory, it’s the only option for me I think since i live in Europe. Do you guys know what should be tested exactly for methylation pathways, so that I can check if this 300 € investment isn’t a hoax etc?

  2. And then once I have confirmed a methylation problem, I should order a 23andme analysis on the gene mutations? What are the exact tests that should be done in 23andme and uh, do you guys have link to it? EDIT: whoa uh am i correct that the whole test on 200 mutations is 99 $ dollars and not just the kit?? EDIT2: argh so it seems. what customer service! I’m dumb.

Sorry if this all have been answered so far. I feel dumb.

#142

Put the money towards the foundation they are only chance of getting out of this mess…

#143

Could you please repost the link to exactly how to do this protocol? There are a lot of very long posts and I can’t seem to find it. Like what exactly do I need, how much, etc.

#144

The base of the Methylation Protocol

  1. High dose (2,000 mcg) sublingual active B12 (hydroxocobalamin or methylcobalamin)
  2. Active Folate (5-methyl tetrahydrofolate)
  3. Some sort of cofactor support.

It has been recommended to take Phosphatidyl Serine Complex, but it usually makes people too tired.

One example program

I tried to come up with a simple starter kit. But its so hard since a whole discussion could be had about each brand and why some people take one version over another. Here is my best shot at a bare bones approach.

  1. 2,000 mcg Jarrow’s Methyl B12 (jarrow.com/product/58/Methyl_B-12) in the upper lip for 45 minutes

  2. A quarter to a full tablet of Solgar Metafolin (solgar.com/SolgarProducts/Fo … ablets.htm) - This is the cheapest way I know to get high quality methylfolate, but I take FolaPro by Metagenics.

  3. Methyl-Guard from Thorne (thorne.com/Products/Vitamins … ~SF787.jsp)

or

Jarrow’s B-Right jarrow.com/product/57/B-Right

The Methyl Guard has TMG in it which is very good up front. Some people just get TMG separately.

From this starting point, read Dr. Van Konynenburg’s original description his Simplified Methylation Program:

cortjohnson.org/treating-chr … g-ph-d-ii/

Then read one of his last posts on how it evolved:

forums.phoenixrising.me/index.ph … ost-269891

#145

consider following this:
heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm

plug your data in here:
geneticgenie.org/methylation-analysis/

#146

gefinauser,

23andMe gives you data on 960,000 SNPs. Right now in this thread we’re specifically targeting about 30.

The Vitamin Diagnostics Methylation Panel would tell you whether or not your in the state we are discussing here. If it comes out clean, you can move on. If it tells you you have a methylation block, you can have confidence in dedicating some time to reversing it.

The Methylation Panel measures the critical metabolites in the methylation cycle. Reduced glutathione (the good kind), Oxidized glutathione (the bad kind), SAMe, S-adenosylhomocysteine and the all the folates in the folate cycle.

These data points can give you a picture on how good your methylation cycle is running. As a reference, here is a picture of the methylation cycle.

co-cure.org/scan0003.bmp

Dr Van Konynenburg has posted a good description of the possible outcomes (mecfsforums.com/index.php?topic=290.0).

In the Van Konynenburg Chronic Fatigue trial paper, he has some great graphs of what this panel looks like in patients with Chronic Fatigue and how their data improves over 6 months on a methylation protocol:

maartensz.org/me/RESOURCES/N … upport.PDF

So far the two methylation panels we have in the forum have pointed to clear methylation dysfunction. And I’ve argued earilier in this thread that moonman1 has methylation dysfunction from the tests he does have. Additionally, all the 23andMe profiles I’ve seen align with a genetic predisposition to this condition as described by Dr. Yasko. It would be great to have more data.

#147

Hi droit,

So the Methylation Panel is good for figuring out whether there is any sort of Methylation Block, 23andme test is good for finding out which kind of supplementation is needed to support methylation.

I assume that once you find you have a methylation block and also that you have problematic SNPs then you have to supplement for life (?). OTOH if you have a methylation block but you do not have problematic SNPs then you might fix the methylation block by supplementing for some period (say 6 months) and then stop the supplements and repeat a Methylation Panel to see how methylation works.

Do the above sound correct?