Finasteride causes glutathione depletion and leads to CFS?

I was listening to this excellent podcast with Chris Kresser who was talking about chronic fatigue syndrome and how a reduction in glutathione by various channels will lead to a vicious cycle of depleting glutathione and what consequences it has. Its best to just listen to the podcast (starting at 21:45).

robbwolf.com/2012/01/31/chris-kr … isode-117/

Transcript:

robbwolf.com/wp/wp-content/uploa … script.pdf

Just a quick search for Finasteride and Glutathione revealed the below paper which directly shows a reduction in glutathione when taking fin.

The Effect of Different Doses of Finasteride on Sperm Morphology and Motility and Reactive Oxygen Species Concentrations in Rats

medicaljournalofcairounivers … 7Med.5.pdf

What is awesome, is this paper (linked below) has a treatment protocol which you can see under ‘Supplement Protocol.’ Just note, as Chris Kresser says, it takes months for change.

maartensz.org/me/RESOURCES/N … upport.PDF

Has anyone done any Methylation testing on this board?

The test they use to confirm this state described by Chris in the podcast is the ‘Methylation Pathways Panel:’

seekinghealth.com/methylatio … stics.html

I’m shocked that this paper hasn’t been cited on this forum yet so I apologize if I missed it in the searches. I haven’t followed any threads on Glutathione on this board, so again if this is old, I apologize. anonnn1 posted on it here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4066 but it didn’t get much traction.

Hi, could you please post this, i had a quick skim and couldnt see it in the paper.

The ‘Dr. Ben’ listed in the seekinghealth link, has this site as well…
mthfr.net/

Been reading it myself for about a month or so.

You’re right tim1911, I didn’t link it. I’ve updated my original post. Thank you!

Interesting, but wasn’t there a guy awhile back who had Methylation testing done and it came back negative?

there’s not accurate testing for this at this time…

@droit, awesome fucking post man. you are right on the money. here’s more info from the same guy

drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/CFS_-_The_Methylation_Cycle

i actually emailed Van Konynenburg and he sent me a latest “status report” on understanding the methylation cycle and what is currently known and understood about it, its from april this year:

Is there any proof that finasteride causes this

I have had methylation cycle tested. Folate came back slightly low but doc said it was not an issue. However, that does not mean that you can just assume glutathione levels are fine…

I believe xhorndog has had IV glutathione a few times without any major improvements tho.

you cant just inject it…it doesnt not work like that

ihealthtube.com/aspx/viewvid … e1b43ca6a4

here take a look…not to mention the anti inflamatory properties (blasé’s ultrasound confirmed inflamation in a nerve)

Why can’t you inject it? That video does not mention it, its a great video though.

I have used this Glutathione product in the past, without noticeable results…
distributors.ultimatenutrition.c … ox_snf.pdf

I have also used many of the products that video mentions raises it.

The one product that has brought back libido and EQ has NAC in it (but also tribulus and L Dopa)…
bodyprosupplements.com.au/media/ … -Label.jpg

@bryce54, Thank you for your post, video and all. That was also fucking awesome.

In regards to the various glutathione supplementers who did not make much progress: the hypothesis described in this post are about a breakdown of ME pathways which are downstream from glutathione protection. My interpretation of Chris Kresser’s discussion and the Van Konynenburg paper and video is that jacking up the protection (glutathione) again would not reboot broken down methylation.

From the protocol in the paper it seems you have to feed more raw materials such as activated B12 and active folate. In fact, in the video posted by bryce54, Van Konynenburg talks about why glutathione isn’t good enough for this condition (its in the second video) and he sites 5 years of failure doing this with CFS patients.

I want to stress is that this treatment seems to be a long term reboot of the methylation patterns that break down in CFS. Lets not use ineffective experiences with glutathione break down the discussion.

@propeciashiz, regarding your quest: “Is there any proof that finasteride causes this?”

The working link between PFS and this theory of CFS is only the paper I’ve posted “The Effect of Different Doses of Finasteride on Sperm Morphology and Motility and Reactive Oxygen Species Concentrations in Rats” which shows that glutathione is depleted in finasteride use (there is a link above).

I would like to other inputs on how PFS may be related. Can anyone draw an corollaries?

If I only lived in america…can someone actually contact one of these doctors?

Interesting indeed…with regards to CFS…has anyone had Mono/Epstein bar virus?

Mario was diagnosed (via an MRI scan) as having signs of demyelination:-
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=5589&p=61642#p61642

Awor hints that we are genetically susceptible to PFS.

Hopefully awor’s research will help pinpoint if we are susceptible to PFS due to presence of particular genes
and/or the absence of particular genes.

In the future, maybe the PFS foundation could arrange some genomic testing for a group of PFS sufferers.

For example, test for:
Presence of 5,10 methltetrahydrofolate reductase methylation gene.
Presence of catechol-o-methltransferase (COMT)methylation gene.
Presence of Glutathione S-transferase Pi-1 1105V gene- (GSTP) gene
Absence of gene for Glutathione S-Transferase (GST) mu-1 gene
etc

Here is a link to a test, if anyone wants to find out if they are ‘genetically susceptible’ to impaired methylation:
gdx.net/core/one-page-test-d … iption.pdf

Hello,

there seems to be also a connection between low Glutahine and depression
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21552194

some Doc´s use it also for the CFS.

BUT! Normal Glutathion does not work very well, oher studies, (sorry need to find the links again) show that N-Acetyl-l-Cysteine is useless or does also not work very well. A much better option is now. S-Acetylglutathion.
How many of you guys checked their glutathion levels? If you are from Germany you can contact me for a test.

I know that I and another guy who posts here quit a bit have high IgG antibodies to EBV. He also had about 4 other co-infections with high anti-bodies.

hey,

I did a very cheap test for Gluathinone, yes mine is low, range: 3,1-5,9 mine is 2,7
Yes I have a bad fatigue.
This Lab is very good and extrem fast. If you would like to do a test in What would be a very good idea.

For Europens this lab is based in Germany:

fatigue-labor.de/de/index.html

They can also check PSA levels.

IF you send them your blood write as diagnosis PFS the Prof. knows about our problem.

I dont think that supporting us with s-acetyglutathione is a cure, but who knows, anyway supporting us with this stuff help a lot, For me it is day and night when I take this form of glutathion. Test it and try it.

I just want to say this again, because this thread is going again toward supplementation of glutathione; the treatment for the condition described in this thread, glutathione depletion related CFS/ME, is not to supplement glutathione.

Dr. Van Konynenburg said in his excellent lecture (iaomt.media.fnf.nu/2/skovde_2011 … Bweburl%7D) that he tried supplementing glutathione in patients with this condition for several years but got only limited temporary improvement.

Additionally, people say again and again on the Phoenix Rising forum that supplementing glutathione/glutathione-precursors made them worst.

forums.phoenixrising.me/index.ph … story.142/

It seems the key is to restart the methlyation pathway, which feeds several other pathways (best described in the above linked lecture) and consequently glutathione levels come up again.

I recommend reading the below which describes the ‘simplified protocol’ for treating glutathione depletion related to methylation block

phoenixrising.me/treating-cfs-ch … nburg-ph-d

phoenixrising.me/treating-cfs-ch … nburg-ph-d

There is a second protocol by a guy who goes by ‘Freddd’:

forums.phoenixrising.me/index.ph … ocol.1104/

yeah i’ve read this also. someone mentioned to me that glutathione supplmentation is a mistake. i also read that glutathione in pill form doesn’t work, supposively only 10% of it is absorbed in pill form. there is another kind that is a patch, but again, not sure how bad it is or not.

droit, have you stumbled upon your research into the 23andme dna test at all? i talked to one guy who got it done and had it interpreted and apparently it explained all his methylation problems and what he needed supplemented, what was wrong, etc. altho he didn’t take propecia so i’m not sure if this is completely related to genetics or not.

BTW, i dk if you guys are religious or not (im not really), but who cares, say a prayer anyway for Dr. Van Konynenburg… he died around oct 7 in his sleep from a heart attack. :frowning: :frowning: his methylation research may save our lives into the future…