Finasteride causes glutathione depletion and leads to CFS?

General Discussion
#309

Here are my Methylation Panel results from the European Laboratory of Nutrients in Holland.

My numbers are pretty consistent with the others posted so far.

AMINOACIDS IN PLASMA
Glutathione (oxidised) 0.55 µmol/L (0.16 - 0.50)
Glutathione (reduced) 3.0 µmol/L (3.8 - 5.5)

Derivates
S-Adenosylmethionine (RBC) 213 µmol/dl (221 - 256)
S-Adenosylhomocysteine (RBC) 53.4 µmol/dl (38.0 - 49.0)

FOLIC ACID DERIVATES
5-CH3-THF 11.4 nmol/l (8.4 - 72.6)
10-Formyl-THF 6.3 nmol/l (1.5 - 8.2)
5-Formyl-THF 1.20 nmol/l (1.20 - 11.70)
THF 0.51 nmol/l (0.6 - 6.80)
Folic Acid 12.5 nmol/l (8.9 - 24.6)
Folinic Acid (WB) 8.6 nmol/l (9.0 - 35.5)
Active folate (RBC) 322 nmol/l (400 - 1500)

NUCLEOSIDE
Adenosine 24.6 10^-8 M (16.8 - 21.4)

#310

Thank you Vanish for posting your results in the thread. I’ve added you to the lab data spreadsheet.

sdrv.ms/1agBv86

The normal ranges in healthy individuals, with means and stdev are published (1) so we can run some basic statistics.

(note that we did not run a control sample, we were able to use the data in citation #1, which is described as ‘120 volunteer male and female medical students between the ages of 20 and 40, nonsmoking and with no known chronic diseases’ - our PFS sample size is 6 at the time of this post)

As you’d expect from just looking at the data, we have statistical significances on our depleted GSH, raised oxidized glutathione, depleted SAMe… all the things Dr. Van Konynenburg uses to describe the ‘Methylation Block.’

Here’s one example from our dataset:

  1. maartensz.org/me/RESOURCES/N … upport.PDF
#311

BTW, the doctor who ran the famous CFS/Methylation-block trial (Dr. Neil Nathan, MD) does see patents in Santa Rosa, CA.

gordonmedical.com/our_practitioners.html

If any one decides to see him, let me know.

#312

This thread/theory is the perfect reason that we should not just blindly listen to Awor, Mew, and Second Amendments remarks about ceasing with our own investigations with our own time and money and should instead allocate all time and $$ towards the Foundation and its PR. This is an example that you can actually support both at the same time and still make important discoveries.

Big props to you so far Droit. I highly encourage more people to get these tests done and look into this…

#313

I don’t think anyone is actually doing that in all honesty. No one is sitting on their hands waiting to be saved by the Foundation, people are employing various methods on their own, so these digs are a bit pointless and needlessly negative.

#314

There have been multiple times people tell others to stop spending money on tests and waisting time theorizing because Mew/Awor/2nd Ammendment told us not to and “its a waist of time and money”.

It was not a digg at anyone, but encouragement to keep investigating. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this further.

#315

Before spending one’s limited time and money trying to match PFS with CFS, keep in mind that the latest evidence suggests Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is caused by Human Herpevirus 6. sciencedaily.com/releases/20 … 092427.htm Please also keep in mind that Chronic Fatigue Syndrome or Fibromyalgia do not even match the symptoms of Post Finasteride Syndrome. Best of luck to you anyway.

#316

I would like to give my two cents in this discussion.

First of all, my life was going nowhere before. I had thoughts of me committing suicide, no relationship, nothing to hold on to. I tried so many supplements with initially promising results but in the end nothing was working and my health kept deteriorating and i do not know where i would be now if i would stop experimenting with different supplements.

Starting the methylation protocol fixed 80% of my problems and changed my life for the better.Although the sample size is very small, there is some evidence that we are under oxidative stress.

Supporting methylation could be the final solution for some sufferers but i also believe that for some people, supporting only methylation is just not enough : There are sufferers (including myself) being in a state of hypothyroidism / hypogonadism and currently we do not know if Methylation protocol can reverse this condition(s). If there are any people out there who were Had Hypo and/or Low T and these conditions were fixed using the Methylation protocol i would like to hear from them. There have been several questions posed in this thread whether Methylation treatment fixes/improves impotence problems (apart from fixing neurological side effects).

Again, it is very possible that some people will get their life back and become 100% normal after Methylation protocol. But PFS has affected some of us in many other ways.

1 Like
#317

S.A.,

  1. I would argue that the majority of us suffer from a form of CFS. We mostly all have chronic fatigue, its that simple.

  2. You are reading the research the wrong way. The research does not say that ALL cases of CFS is cased by HHV-6. Instead, the research shows that HHV-6 CAN cause CFS, not that it is the ONLY cause of CFS.

But this particular thread and theory is not concerning CFS. It is dealing with methylation, Glutathione, and oxidative stress.

We already have a thread on infection antibodies, including HHV-6 if you want to read more into it or join that discussion.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7364&hilit=antibody

In addition, here a great road-map regarding these antibodies.
sites.google.com/site/cfstestin … ntroadmap/

#318

members of this forum trying to interpret research and then apply it to our syndrome, which is still not properly understood, is so so so pointless

no one is “waiting around” for the foundation to “save” them … but anyone with a brain knows that they will be by far our best source of information … i know i am not sitting around waiting for them and that i try things to get better all the fucking time

unfortunately, no matter how you look at it, you have no proof or genuine understanding of “recovery” stories because you could not possibly understand WHY any of the things they did worked, people only think or assume they do, and none of us can possible say that PFS matches another syndrome and expect a rational thinking person to take them even slightly seriously… it is just too complicated for that

i am of the line of thinking that you will be far better served spending spare cash on the foundation as opposed to more blood tests, but to each his own

why do so many “recovered” or even “greatly improved” people hardly ever show their “post-recovery” blood work? because they are scared to know what it is because they are feeling better and do not see something that will bother them? or will other forum members see something that they will say “doesnt look like the numbers of a recovered person”, or whatever it is?

far too much trust is given for all the wrong reasons

again, we are not sitting around waiting for the foundation to save us

#319

I wouldn’t. But I’m not interested in winning an argument over the Internet. If you’re still taken in by these types of threads–fine. Just go get tested for whatever any alternative health doctor tells you and please leave me out of it. Best of luck with your endeavors anyhow.

#320

Chronic fatigue is one of the few symptoms of PFS I’ve got rid of. My energy levels are pretty good generally. Also, I don’t think CFS causes you to grow breasts or your genitals to shrink and go numb. FWIW droit believes PFS is a state of androgen deprivation as well. I think this is a good thread but I concur with Mario vitali, those with low T symptoms may (also) have to try boosting hormones in some way because I doubt this is going to conquer muscle wastage let alone ed/libido issues.

#321

Please do not derail the topic with discussion (including digs on awor’s research and such) related to methylation protocol and it’s results. If you wish to do so, make another topic about it like was done with JN’s/IHP’s theory and topic. This topic is mainly reserved for methylation results and raising awareness of methylation problems in PFS population & QA related to applying the SMP or similar protocol.

#322

So with the B-12- do you place it under the top lip near the teeth, or hold it between the lips?

I am going to get the methylation panel test done and will post results.

At the moment I am taking L-methyfolate and Methylcobalamin (B12) with a B-Complex and Magnesium.

#323

Jamielondon,

I often hear of people putting the sublingual in their top lip against the gums. But I think this could be a great discussion on the treatment thread to find out what everyone is doing.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8481

#324

To add to the debate, here is a reply I got from the endo I see at Dr Herthoge’s clinic after I sent her my methylation panel results. Previously she had never spoken about methylation.

#325

to.robin,

Thank you for posting this report from your doctor. You have a relatively progressive doctor compared to everyone else.

Also, this person’s treatment analysis is totally inline with the treatment protocol that most are doing.

I’ve never heard of Vitamin C aiding in the recycling of Glutathione. Glutathione reductase is the enzyme that recycles glutathione. I would be interested in researching what the relationship is.

If I take a lot Vitamin C I get tired just like when I manually take any antioxidant.

#326

I’m going to give this a shot starting today.

Breakfast:

B Complex (Thorne #12), low dose vitamin C

Lunch:

Low dose vitamin C

Dinner:

B Complex, fish oil, vitamin D, low dose vitamin C

Bedtime:

NAC, magnesium citrate

#327

Bluejaysfan,

I like that you said ‘low dose vitamin C.’ I also will titrate up, but slower. Maybe a 10th of a capsule every other day for a week.

#328

Hey Guys,

Just wanted to say some things regarding the Methylation protocol. I was one of the people that felt immediate results with NAC. Then i decided to add more methylation supplements such as Methylcobalamin, TMG, P5P to feel better as soon as possible.

After some days i saw my Brain Fog and various other neurological sides becoming more intense. I thought that Methylcobalamin was causing the side effects and so i dropped it.

After trying various dosages and methyl supplement combinations i came to the conclusion that it was NAC that made me feel worse. It seems that a “methylation block” occurred which made things even worse. When i dropped NAC and added a single dose of MethylCobalamin, TMG and P5P i started feeling great and more importantly i started having consistent results.

Neurological sides are slowly diminishing for the past two weeks both in frequency and intensity so i am very positive for this. I also get HCG shots because of low T and also take T3/T4 meds for my thyroid.