PVDL - If you haven’t already… You can get a free 10 min consult with Goldstein. I would do it myself but I already called. Call and ask him. How many PFS guys he sees and what his success rate is. I am sure he sees guys that don’t post here.
You behave very similar to JQD.
Don’t worry Sg, they send that email within a few hours. I’m up on there already.
False. I dont promise easy solutions, but hard work via the foundation, study participation, donations, public awareness and scientific researchers.
Also I dont lie to ram through a theory.
Totally different. But I guess you are delusional as well, because you believe JQD has credibility. You hope that he will figure out PFS via hombrew hormone protocols, even though countless people have tried what he tried and failed.
By supporting this delusional guy, you are actively sabotaging the foundation and participation in studies. If you dont trust me, reread awors post again, and sense his frustration. He puts in real hard work, is an honest and intelligent guy, but instead of supporting him you stick your nose up the behind of the lasted Messiah.
Andractim is available on the internet at £55 a tube. It’s easy to get hold of, but I’ve gone through 3 tubes worth without any gain so would not recommend bothering.
PVDL, you are the delusional German Nazi that is clueless, Dr Goldstein sees 8 patients a day, that is roughly 2,400 patients a year, he uses Andractim, he has a 60% success rate. This forum has only 1000 or so registered users, only 630 of which are in the US, the only Goldstein patient we know of is tow8er and he has recovered with Andractim. The mathematics don’t like, that means DR Goldstien has success with roughly 1,300 PFS patients a year, that means every year he treats more patients with success using hormones than are on this entire forum since it started.
If he was 100% unsuccessful, there would be posts and posts of angry and desperate guys, and we don’t see any, we only know of a recovery from him. As soon as I went on the gel it completed my puzzle and now I have finally PFS in remission, due to your posts you do realize people have threatened to stop donating. Read back in this thread, look at PerfectGent’s post, a big donator by the way, he was so upset he asked me if he should donate here.
So by perpetrating lies out of ignorance or some Agenda we don’t understand, you are doing a few things, first you have got Mew to shutdown the theories section, this means all the people who come here will leave and go elsewhere and the donations will slow and slow and finally stop. Foundations don’t get donations out of the blue, they require having a community, that community is vanishing, already a HUGE amount of people have left here to go to solvepfs.
The other thing you are doing is making it impossible to win any lawsuits, as soon as you claim this condition is untreatable with hormones and in court that is disproven, your case will be impeached. They will be able to prove you are lying and discredit you when they Depose Dr Goldstein and he provides evidence of patients being successfully treated. He cannot lie about that in the USA or he will lose his license, and he cannot lie under oath or he risks contempt of court which could result to up to 1 year in prison.
Furthermore, you continuously and tirelessly quote “Awor,” over and over and over, are you that dense? Out of thousands and thousands and thousands of cases, one guy who didn’t even use Andractim with testosterone correctly (the way Dr Goldstein uses it) means his experiences apply for thousands? Yet you constantly quote studies which rely on the scientific method, they require multiple people (not 1). You may have convinced yourself that you cannot be treated, so it is your choice if you want to live like a woman for the rest of your life, Lord knows you act like a bitter bitch with PMS, but for us real met who want to go and fuck women again (like I am doing), we don’t care what you think.
Finally, your posts are filled with vitriol and pure hatred, they are not normal posts, they are vicious and they have a tone to them of someone who if they could they would strangle me with their bare hands. You sound like an extremely unbalanced and mad man out to do nothing but stop people from getting better. You are 1 person with no body that gives a shit about anything you say, you add nothing to anything but endless vitriol and hateful criticism. I have a HUGE number of people who do not post here but contact me off the forum, there has been a HUGE number of people who left here to go to solvepfs.com, the amount of money you have cost the foundation is untold.
So good luck with your fundraising efforts, somehow I doubt the bank accounts here are going to fill with money once everyone is elsewhere. We can prove people are getting better (thousands of people) via these established methods with Dr Goldstein, all you have to do is call and ask. He CANNOT lie, he can go to jail, the US has very strict medical laws, so one has to question what exactly your true agenda is. Why do you want people to remain untreated? What is your real motivation? There are only a fraction of PFS cases here, a FRACTION, RQ himself noted that the day he saw Dr Goldstein, he was one of 8 patients that day. Dr Jacobs has a huge patient base and told me this forum has only a fraction of PFS cases, and he has treated guys with success, but not like Dr Goldstein who uses Andractim (DHT).
So continue on with your vitriol, it’s not making you look like anymore more than a lunatic who is filled with so much hatred that guys are jumping ship and leaving. You can go back a page or two and see PerfectGent’s threat to stop donating here due to the mistreatment of me. Somehow I don’t think you have a bunch of guys donating or not donating in your name, PerfectGent has actually donated in my name. So keep it up, already you have cost this foundation a lot of money, you as a German quote Hitler? If venom could spray from your mouth it would, most people read my posts and do not post. Ask Eden how many people have signed up already, you have torn this forum apart, you perpetuate lies that are easily disproven.
If you want to spend the next 10 years being impotent and a woman, that is your perogative, but the numbers and data don’t support your absurd arguments that people cannot be recovered with hormones based on your idol Awor who you endlessly quote. I am sorry Awor could not get better, but he was not using this protocol correctly, the gel must be used in a very low dose (with a low dose of test), Goldstein with success has done this.
So you are a vicious lying and insulting person who writes messages filled with so much hatred that are disgusting, and you have caused half of the site (if not most) to migrate to another forum. You have caused people to stop donating, one has already threatened to do so, I hope your strategy pans out for you. I own a very big business, if you worked for me I would fire you, you couldn’t raise a dollar for this forum. Most importantly, most guys here are not interested in waiting on studies, they want answers now. When those studies conclude PFS exists, they will only send patients to Dr Goldstein or Jacobs, why would they discredit one of the world’s foremost experts in neuroendocrinology studying and treating PFS (who went to Harvard BTW).
Do you think they will immediately begin working on a pill? Pharmaceutical companies only create pills and medications when they can make BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, there is no profit in this. The number of people with cases are too small, only a fraction are on this forum (1k) and only 630 are in the US, and most don’t even post or come here. Dr Goldstein has over 1300 patients a year being successfully treated. There are countless guys with PFS getting treating with HRT that don’t even know they have PFS, no magical pill is coming out, the studies won’t amount to much other than to try and help people sue Merck. I suppose that maybe your motive, I am not sure, but you will be discredited in court when the lawyers ask why your complaint states that this condition is untreatable with hormones, when there are guys being successfully treated with hormones.
You should rethink your strategy, you don’t have anyone here who likes you, you sound like a very bitter and miserable woman who talks like a psycho, ask anyone here with sense, you are being laughed at behind the scenes. If you like costing this foundation money, being an object of mockery, enjoy it man, but you aren’t getting anywhere with your PMSing posts.
Danny if you use the recommended dose it doesn’t work, Goldstein specifically states this and makes it clear that more than a pea sized amount (one on each rib cage) must be used. Also it will not work if your testosterone is too high, I believe he uses about 0.4CC of testosterone cypionate. So that is around 10mg of propionate a day, only the propionate works better. If you put a bunch on without testosterone it definitely wouldn’t work, if you used the recommended dose with testosterone it would not work, if you used too much testosterone it would not work, and if you used too much Andractim it would not work.
Something you might want to reconsider if you have not tried it, if you did try it the correct way, you may be a non responder, you are in the minority. I have a protocol for you to try involving Masteron, testosterone propionate and Andractim, it is worth a shot, did you use Andractim this way? Remember that Dr Goldstein is using this gel with around 1300 patients a year using it successfully, this forum has only 1k people on it total.
I think Awor said in one of his posts… Try Andractim for 2/3 days. If you don’t feel anything or have a bad response… You must consider what that means.
If you never try is that a mistake? What if it works enough for you to move on with life?
Why do you insist on lying to further your agenda?
Seriously!
A) The forum has 3421 members not “only 1000”.
B) Dr. Goldstein does not have 2400 PFS patients a year. Also he does not have a 60% success rate. All of this is a lie and you know it.
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I’m sorry, this isn’t personal and I understand the hopefulness behind it, but I think this is a wild overstatement and creates unrealistic and potentially damaging expectations. Please see my earlier post a few pages back about Goldstein’s success rate, based on my actual in-person visit to his facility.
But to address the numbers JQD is now touting:
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2,400 PFS patients a year? He is apparently extrapolating from my statement that Goldstein told me he saw 8 the day I was there. I don’t believe he sees 8 every day - he remarked, in fact, that this was probably the most he’d ever seen in a day. He also said that the volume of PFS guys he gets is rising sharply; that is to say, until recently he was probably getting a lot less than whatever he’s getting now. Also, if you want to extrapolate, subtract 104 days per year for weekends, add in another 20 or so for vacations, and don’t forget the days when he doesn’t do consultations because he’s blocked then out for surgeries and other procedures – a not insignificant number.
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“with about a 60 percent success rate.” Again, what Goldstein told me is that he estimates that 50-60 percent improve in a meaningful way. How he defines meaningful improvement is a very subjective thing. Guys who feel less depressed maybe but who still can’t use their dicks? Does that count as improvement? Also, the impression I got from talking to others on his team is that sexual recovery is on the whole uncommon.
More to the point: he was talking off the cuff and estimating. Maybe he was trying to give me more hope. I can’t stress enough: he seemed to word his answers to me in a vague way that could include a lot of guys in the “improved” category who aren’t much better than we ar now. Plus, I remember my experience with Jacobs when I pressed him on his own success rate, which he suggested was pretty high just from using T and AIs. I asked him if patients were reporting back to him that they were better, but he said he just wasn’t hearing from them anymore and figured that meant they’d improved. Obviously, I don’t quite buy that. I mean, I myself went 7 months between visits with him once. Did he put me in the “success” category that time?
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Goldstein is very up front that his approach has evolved and is evolving. Which means: what he’s prescribing now is not what he was prescribing 6 months or 1 year or 2 years ago. I know some guys who saw him and had completely different and unsuccessful treatments. In other words: if he’s having a 50-60 percent success rate now, whatever that means exactly, it may have been much lower just a few months ago.
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All of which means: the math of taking the 8 patients who saw Goldstein the day I did and extrapolating it over several years and assigning a 60 percent success rate to all of them and assuming that thousands have seen him and gotten better and moved on with their lives is a potentially dramatic overstatement of the situation.
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We do have a compelling anecdotal report on this site from towm8er about improving significantly with Goldstein. It’s very interesting and thorough and he also credits some other factors - and is urge anyone who hadn’t read it to do so.
But blithely stating that “thousands” of PFS guys have seen Goldstein and gotten better is a very dubious and unsupported claim. Maybe if someone else went out there and pressed him more than I did on how exactly he defines success, whether his pre-andractim/T methods produced any results, how many patients he sees a year (and got some actual documentary evidence to support all of his answers) it would be useful.
Again: I paid the $$ and made the trip to see Goldstein and I think he’s a smart guy doing important work and is operating in good faith. I was just in contact with him this AM, in fact, and am about to dive into his program. I also think that hope and optimism are good and vital things for all of us. But unreasonable expectations can also be devastating and set us up for awful reactions if things don’t work out. A long way of saying: I think it’s best to treat the Goldstein approach as an interesting idea that we know has helped at least one person here and to make our own decisions about whether we want to give it a shot. My distinct impression after spending parts of two days at his office is that his “success rate” is a vastly more complicated thing than is being suggested here.
[quote=“JustQuitDut”]
Andy, Dr Goldstein treats about 2400 patients a year (none seem to come here) with about a 60% success rate, he tells them to order andractim off the net. I tried inducing my own DHT, but with PFS there is a limit, so I went back to my original conclusion, DHT replacement. It works, we only use a tiny amount of the gel, while everything is suppressive, it is the only thing that allows us to respond to testosterone properly. The propionate protocol is advised with it, Goldstein uses lots of pills and creams, I believe using propionate vs cypionate makes it all you need.
[\quote]
Mew: I disagree with blocking the theory section just because of JQD. Here is the place to think, to disagree, to curse, this is the correct place to crazy people like JQD, like everybody. The problem is that JQD is egocentric, he said he is the king of propeciahelp and that’s not true, the true kings are Letsconvenience, cdnuts, Apr1989, ihatepropecia702, hopingformore, elb, beekay, light at the end, chi, those guys are really cured, some 90%, others 95% and others 100% with no hormones, with no daily T injection, daily arimidex, this is cure, not treatment. JQD said he doesn’t want to be cured, he wants to be in HRT for the rest of his life, I don’t want that, but I also don’t want to this section to be blocked, I don’t want to move to another forum, create another account, I don’t like the idea of a member being banned, but if its necessary to the section I prefer to just ban JQD to the good of all members of theory section, again, that’s a measure that I don’t like either.
JQD, tell me what do you think of these guys that got cured without using hormones (just cdnuts did) (or others used progesterone and pregnenolone). I’d like to read your opinion on this, I know you’re crazy, I know you call people nazi, not developed, socialist, like you said to the german guy, like you said about brazilian people (I would think that you would say the same about my country Argentina, since you guys don’t even know that Brazil and Argentina have different languages and culture) like you said about the health system in UK, about arabic people, you’re full of prejudice and thinks America is the best in everything, this is a nazi thinking in my opinion, but it doesn’t matter here, we just need to talk about our condition, not any personal belief.
So, will you answer me about how these guys didn’t feel anything on any hormones and got cured without it? How beekay tried hormones and felt nothing and after test-boosters and pregnenolone and progesterone he responded to HCG injection for the first time. How Elb that tried progesterone and felt worse and then tried again and felt recovery ups and downs until cured by mixing progesterone with test-boosters.
I really want to read your opinion, you’re crazy, I’m crazy, everybody here on the theory section are crazy, that’s why this place exist to discuss theory. If you don’t know about these recoveries, I’d suggest to you to read, if you don’t know why they recovered, there’s no problem in being humble and say for the first time “I don’t know”.
To the other members. I’m not judging anybody, we’re here to discuss but like people not like animals.
I don’t think mixing all these kinds of hormones will lead anybody to anywhere, because in my opinion and that’s my theory, our problem is related to our androgen receptor and that’s why we don’t respond to injections, creams, arimidex. These guys restored their AR, light at the end even say about this on his thread, Apr1989 said the same. I’m not saying something new, I’m not trying to give you guys the magic cure, I’m just saying what those guys said, seems logic and truth.
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You call JQD egocentric but you have been a forum member for a relatively short amount of time and actually made a list of changes to the forum master that need to be made to this entire site. Mew (the forum master) has been at this for around or over ten years and has helped start the PFS Foundation where as you’ve been at it for about 6 months and you say he’s running things incorrectly.
You say JQD is delusional but you think that getting rid of a single forum board member (JQD) will bring in more money to the PFS foundation and more people will be involved in studies. Believing this is delusional. You also believe that me supporting JQD testing hormones is actively sabotaging the PFS Foundation. You sound paranoid delusional.
You say JQD repeats himself with a wall of text. Review the past 8 pages of this thread and you’ll see you’re doing the same thing.
You say JQD claims things that have no evidence to support it, but you claim “home brew remedies” haven’t helped anyone when that is clearly not the case as me, and many other people can testify.
I don’t expect you to admit you’ve handled all of this incorrectly, it’s easier to see the flaws in other people and not in ourselves
RQ, fair enough, but the arguments being made here are that no one responds to hormones ever, that no one ever recovers from hormones, that Dr Goldstein is a fraud, that is what PVDL is stating. I believe that is extremely dangerous, I think it is best we continue our conversation on solvepfs.com. Obviously PVDL is going to keep posting his vitriole, that no one can be treated or respond to hormones, that is completely untrue.
I am an example of someone suffering horribly from PFS, in just 6 months I have gotten to where it has taken guys here years to get, and if I miss a dose I revert right back to hell. There may be not as many patients being recovered by Goldstein as I state, but he has quite a few improving or recovering, otherwise he would not be in business.
I know from HRT doctors they have had patients with this condition who recovered over months or years on HRT, and Goldstein’s using DHT (Andractim) has worked for me, so I can see how it has worked for other guys. The view that this is untreatable, hopeless, and nothing works, is dangerous and simply untrue. PVDL seems to deny anyone can improve or get better on hormones, I am 6 months into this, I am REALLY bad off, and by some miracle I have been able to reverse about 90% of PFS.
Andractim is really filling in the missing links, I would have killed myself if not for these treatments, thats what PVDL doesn’t understand. I have seen guys here who simply had Low T, he has no idea that there are guys that have low T from taking finasteride and it is fully reversible. I initially had low T from finasteride, that was reversible with hormones, only when I crashed from Avodart did hormones stop properly working. After 6 months of hell I have gotten to a very good place where I have figured out how to make hormones work. Guys who improve mostly don’t post, even I stopped posting when I started to improve for a month when I first came here, now it is different as I have made friends, but there is a view here that no one can improve, and a view on solvepfs that many guys can improve.
While PVDL seems to be filled with venomous hatred, for the best of everyone, the conversation has moved to solvepfs, that way these fights do not occur here and discredit this foundation. It is for the best of everyone, I have no interest in fighting with anyone. I am simply trying to improve my protocol and share the results and help others, solvepfs.com has a lot of interesting recovery stories there and progress. Some guys want to stay here and be hopeless and talk about suicide and how no one ever responds to anything, that is simply untrue. Whatever the number, it is much higher than PVDL’s claim of 0, so I hope you join the rest of us at solvepfs.com
Eden has documented improvements on various hormonal protocols, I am not sure why he doesn’t pick one and stick to it, but there have been some interesting drugs they have brought up there as well that have induces recovery. They do not discuss herbs and natural treatments, some pretty hardcore stuff, for example, this post was interesting. Let them do their thing here, and we can do ours there, I have no desire to argue with PVDL anymore. Everyone has already moved to solvepfs, I won’t be posting much more here, the thread will continue here
solvepfs.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=152
Below is an interesting post from solvepfs.com, some of the drugs that have recovered guys can help researchers, they use more of a scientific method there, lots of experiments. If Andractim doesn’t work in someone, I believe it is just a matter of needing a higher dose of DHT, in injectable form (which doesn’t exist). I am working on that, but also there are DHT derivatives like Masteron that can be used with Andractim as they both work very differently (could help a non responder theoretically). I will continue experiments there with the guys I am working with (including moonman).
[i]Dexamethasone
Postby Enden » Wed May 14, 2014 4:33 pm
It may be used to suppress the adrenal glands. The standard protocol is 1 mg taken at 11 PM.
I experimented with it for a week while I was on TRT. It improved my symptoms, and I woke up with a morning erection most of the days… It caught my interest when I read about a guy who recovered after being prescribed dexamethasone by his doctor, for an injury. He didn’t know why it made him recover, but shared the story on a BB forum. You can read about it here too, in the recovery stories section. Anyway, the latest PFS study showed that pregnenolone was significantly elevated in the PFS group, compared to the control group. Pregnenolone is produced by the adrenal glands from cholesterol, and is the mother of all other adrenal hormones, such as cortisol. As negative feedback is controlled by the level of cortisol, elevated level of pregnenolone indicates free cortisol deficiency. The adrenal glands may very well be the source of the problems, as they’re producing androgens too. Androgens aromatizes, and when the estradiol level increases (the new PFS study shows that estradiol is elevated too), CBG will increase with it. In other words, in the attempt to increase the cortisol level, the problem becomes worse. More androgens means more estradiol, CBG, and thus less free cortisol. I think that dexamethasone improved my symptoms because it suppressed the adrenal androgens, not because it has potent glucocorticoid effects. A problem with cortisol, will lead to a problem with thyroid hormones. Depending on whether it’s too high or low, it may cause symptoms of hypo- or hyperthyroidism. PFS is associated with both.[/i]
Please let’s stop the attacks this forum
In what sense are well meant suggestions of how to improve upon a forum egocentric? I think you are grasping at straws here.
I am referencing a post by awor, who is deeply involved with the studies and the foundation. Let me remind you:
So you are calling the guy who is actually involved with the studies and foundation paranoid?
Also its common sense: You can either invest your dollar in donations or home brew. You can invest your time either on home brew or on study participation, media awareness etc…
Yes I have repeated myself, because to fight propagandists (endless repetition), its best to give them some of their own medicine. I will however soon leave this forum again, as the theories section will be shut down now and JQD has left.
I said that home brew has not delivered any effective treatment yet. Are you going to deny that? Are you that delusional? Why then, are you still on this site? Are there some people who improve over time? Absolutley. Is the improvement causally linked with them eating aspargus? Absolutely not.
PVDL, your claim that hormones don’t help improve PFS symptoms and cure it in plenty of guys is simply untrue, every time you make that claim people don’t take you seriously There isn’t a single guy here who buys that, this condition causes hormonal imbalances, often when corrected guys improve, you sound like a broken record, give it up, people are tired of you. You have caused this forum to split in half, and many have left, and I assure you it won’t help your fundraising efforts or hopes. When people stop coming here, they stop donating, not intentionally, it’s just how life works.
No one agrees with you, with your constantly quoting 1 case of PFS, yes, Awor has a bad situation, but that is the minority, the majority can improve with hormones when done right. Even if it’s just some, it still makes you wrong, no one is interested in hearing from you that they are fucked for life and nothing works. You simply sound like an idiot, treating this condition is successfully being done, if your goal is to raise money for this foundation, scroll back. You already cost them money, perfect gent threatened to not donate if this continues, and for he who posts, I have 20-30 guys who contact me directly and feel the same way, I suggest for the best of everyone, you give up with your vitriol and find something productive to do. We are focused on getting better and migrating to solvePFS, soon you will have this forum to yourself to tell people how hopeless and fucked they are so you can document more suicides.
It’s all yours buddy, so why are you still going on? You single handedly cost the foundation a shit load of money, split the site, and now people are lashing back at you, no one is interested in hearing what you have to say (anymore than we are interested in hearing what a girl PMSing has to say).
PVDL, your claim that hormones don’t help improve PFS symptoms and cure it in plenty of guys is simply untrue, every time you make that claim people don’t take you seriously There isn’t a single guy here who buys that, this condition causes hormonal imbalances, often when corrected guys improve, you sound like a broken record, give it up, people are tired of you. You have caused this forum to split in half, and many have left, and I assure you it won’t help your fundraising efforts or hopes. When people stop coming here, they stop donating, not intentionally, it’s just how life works.
No one agrees with you, with your constantly quoting 1 case of PFS, yes, Awor has a bad situation, but that is the minority, the majority can improve with hormones when done right. Even if it’s just some, it still makes you wrong, no one is interested in hearing from you that they are fucked for life and nothing works. You simply sound like an idiot, treating this condition is successfully being done, if your goal is to raise money for this foundation, scroll back. You already cost them money, perfect gent threatened to not donate if this continues, and for he who posts, I have 20-30 guys who contact me directly and feel the same way, I suggest for the best of everyone, you give up with your vitriol and find something productive to do. We are focused on getting better and migrating to solvePFS, soon you will have this forum to yourself to tell people how hopeless and fucked they are so you can document more suicides.
It’s all yours buddy, so why are you still going on? You single handedly cost the foundation a shit load of money, split the site, and now people are lashing back at you, no one is interested in hearing what you have to say (anymore than we are interested in hearing what a girl PMSing has to say).
DISCUSSION CONTINUED HERE
solvepfs.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=152
Please stop posting here and move to the new thread as this forum will be locked soon.
JQD, how many 100% PFS REVERSALS WITH DHT THERAPHY have you achieved in your patients??
This would be pure comedy, if it werent so serious.
Also I heard of someone who is against DHT therapy and Dr. Goldstein, I think you know him (hint: its the other half of your brain) :
JQD: So I presume (and I think others too) that you don’t know the answer to my question. You prefer to hide yourself instead of admit that you don’t know. That’s ok. Your answer is that you don’t know.
Guys, I took hydrocortisone, prednisone, high dosages, low dosages, it didn’t help me, it made me worse, and my TSH (thyroid was 3.4 it increased to 3.6 and 3.8) so it’s not good. When I was using tribulus and proviron my TSH that was 3.8 decreased to 2.4 and I felt just a little bit more energy.
When I tried tribulus with progesterone cream (first I felt worse and then I increased my tribulus intake) I felt perfect energy, no more weight gain, no more muscle weakness, no more muscle loss. So this thing about Adrenal Fatigue is related to our AR, Beekay said the same, he recovered from Adrenal Fatigue with his protocol.
JQD can go on a deeper rout about other hormones that will screw you like HC, Prednisone, Dexamethasone, be careful with this and other crazy things like armour thyroid, T3, reverse T3 from Stop the thyroid madness or any curezone freak. Our body is totally connected, estrogen dominance will interfere with our T3, then it can increase prolactin, blocking testosterone, increasing cortisol. I understand about cortisol-thyroid-hormones connection, if you want you can send me a PM and I tell you everything I know. That’s not the answer, the proof is that all the guys here have some kind of adrenal fatigue, all the recoveries also recovered from it.