Excessive urination what is the real cause? vasopressin?

General Discussion
#21

I’ve been trying to work out this cortisol/energy issue for a long time. I can feel extreme anxiety but at the same time I also have many down periods throughout the day energy wise and waking up after sleeping is extremely difficult which I think indicates very low cortisol. Like I’ll wake up and simply moving doesn’t work well besides rolling over and going back to sleep which happens almost instantly if I don’t force it to not happen and get up in which case I get hit with some disorientation and feel like a zombie before I get my supplements in me and head to the kitchen to get the coffee on ASAP. I have actually tried a low dose of adrenal cortex before and noticed my anxiety just skyrocketed and I got a little bit more sensory brightness but nothing else. For an extra boost when I was experimenting with that I added yohimbine and got a little more physical mobility and a slight uplift in mood but barely anything and no sexual functioning improved either while on that combo (this was much earlier on though when I was far worse, I haven’t tried this experiment now but I also don’t want to as I might mess something up).

I think I have high cortisol and other excitory transmitters at times but there is something jacked up with my receptors and I can only imagine their expression got extremely upregulated to a level so high that no amount my body was normally making of the neurotransmitters was even hitting enough of those receptors and over time they are slowly going back to baseline as improvements in feeling excitement, emotions, and general energy seem to also come hand in hand with how physically able I can be and how well I can feel things like endorphins from exercise or a sense of reward or interest from things. I have had one of my worst crashes of all time on l-theanine super early on too which doesn’t appear to effect cortisol but I believe can cut down dopamine transmission and I felt like I was going to collapse and the hypersomnia, numbness, and anhedonia problem at that time got even worse for a week. I also had a smaller crash that lasted some days from reintroducing quercetin where it also felt like all signalling in my brain just dropped out again and I became completely zombified. Though there was an interesting point in my case where I had become intolerant to my own methyl-b12 which would increase the burning brain, head pressure, negative state of mind, and sexual dysfunction. Methyl-folate would make everything worse too but in the specific way of uncontrollable anxiety and dread with further sexual dysfunction. I need the methyl-b12 though to function cause when I took it out the burning brain and associated issues went down a bit with the least improvement in the constant feeling of dread, fatigue (got far worse without the b12), and sexual functioning. Adding in cyan-b12 at the same dose didn’t work for me and made the sexual dysfunction much worse to the point where I couldn’t even get an erection and put me in a near panic attack like state for hours without giving me any energy but did not induce the burning brain thing again. I managed to be able to reintegrate methyl-b12 again at 1000 mcg with the help of another supplement I’m still on now and don’t seem to be able to crash from methyl-b12. If I increase the dose now to 2000 mcg I get more overall functioning back but my anxiety levels get out of hand, I get sound sensitivity issues with increased tinnitus, and my body gets a bit more rigid in movement.

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#22

If you look at some of the symptoms of high cortisol that I have put in my previous post, are not present in us, for example:
High blood pressure: Majority here shows low BP. Mine was 117 to 120 pre SP use. After SP it ranges from 85 to 105.
Extra facial or chest hair: On the contrary, we are losing body hair everywhere.

But symptoms like body hair loss, low BP, salt craving, nausea etc they are signs of low cortisol:

  • Areas of darkened skin
  • Low blood pressure, even fainting
  • Salt craving
  • Low blood sugar, also called hypoglycemia
  • Nausea, diarrhea or vomiting
  • Abdominal pain
  • Muscle and joint pain
  • Irritability
  • Depression
  • Body hair loss or sexual issues in some people

=> So what is going on here? We are having mixed symptoms for low(salivary) and high(blood) cortisol.
I recall when I did my first saliva test in 2013, cortisol was very low and another hormone aldosterone( if I recall correctly), was almost undetectable. This is all very confusing. Blood levels show higher cortisol while saliva shows lower(Addison’s disease) cortisol level. I think this is the same scenario where some PFS guys have above normal testosterone level but show all the symptoms of low testosterone (again high blood but low salivary values). Based on symptoms I believe salivary values are more reliable.
Here is a picture of my armpit. I never had this colouration before using SP.

image
image649×752 104 KB

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#23

On a seperate are you still taking VitD3

#24

Not I dont say that this is 100% because of low cortisol. It changes from purple, pink and blackish. Some days very dark and some days lighter.

#25

yes, VitD3 is a must for me, no question about it. It is like you cannot live w/o Thyroid or other mandatory meds.

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#26

Yeah that’s what is confusing with me, I sometimes have symptoms of high cortisol and stress problems but I also consistently experience symptoms that contrast it. I forgot what my BP range specifically is but it’s almost always on the lower side of normal though not alarmingly low, the only thing that’s able to speed it up is a very sharp spike of stress like being negatively surprised by something but then it just drops back down rather quickly despite the remaining state of higher stress. Doesn’t even make sense. Nothing I do seems to be able to stimulate very much besides increasing my b12 dose in certain respects. If I ate an entire bag of caffeine pills and drank coffee all day at this point I’m convinced my BP wouldn’t even budge at this point.

I also have increased chest/stomach/ dark thick facial hair (I need permanent removal I’m so sick of it and it’s only somehow gotten worse since this happened) but now my leg/arm/head hair grows slower. If I don’t shave for just a few days I’ll start getting joking comments about growing it out, that is how bad it is. I have no noticeable things going on at the surface of my skin and never did through this whole thing. No pain in my guts just more bloating more often, fasting helps a bit with everything overall. The irritability with me will sky rocket sometimes and I’m always a hair trigger away from being completely overwhelmed with stress. I do have PTSD but my body is also clearly having a very exaggerated stress response now for no reason, when I first crashed for months I had no stress response at all though. No depression right now though, it’s like the irritability thing is it’s own thing going on. I do have random cravings for very salty, savory fried fatty food. It includes carbs but not carbs alone (like I wouldn’t be satisfied just eating a ton of plain rice, it’s the salty/fatty/protein rich cravings first), not sugar though. I guess that probably implies that my body is just craving more general energy to keep the lights on in it. I only get muscle pains if I drop my methyl-b12 and the rest of my energy tanks.

I think at this point we have across the board with this bubble of conditions seen hormone levels all over the place to the point where I personally wouldn’'t even focus on them. In fact I’ve had windows where it shows that my adrogen receptors themselves appear to be fine now but something is going wrong from the brain down BEFORE anything even gets there. In my case specifically it feels like expression of something crucial is stuck too high and my body is stuck in some lower self regulating loop.

@spstriken

That’s like me but with mk7 k2 100 mcg, that stuff is my savior. D3 gave me back more social/emotional fluidity but made me otherwise really lethargic and the ED/sex drive and regular motivational drive with it got even wors. I don’t even try to supplement it anymore and I think I get enough sun, feels like it could crash me easily under the right conditions.

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#27

@Dysfunction
Do you have body hair loss on your legs below the knees? My legs are completely bald now.

#28

It still grows but less of it and much slower, same for my arms. I don’t know how it’s possible to have 2 different hair growth directions in 2 different sections of the body but about the legs I’m not complaining though, it can stay down. Before this all happened it was even growth all over though.

#29

It shows why vitamin D makes feel better.
//https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addison%27s_disease//
Those with low aldosterone levels may also benefit from a high-sodium diet. It may also be beneficial for the people with Addison’s disease to increase their dietary intake of calcium and vitamin D.
I would like to see effects of , rifampicin and phenytoin because they accelerate the normal breakdown of hormones by the liver. I am sure excessive urination will go down after rifampicin and phenytoin use

#30

I will appreciate criticism with logic. I will be happy if someone can prove me wrong with research papers.

#31

I haven’t followed this thread but your post asking for research papers to prove/disprove a theory might not work out.

That the paper doesn’t exist because this is not an area that has been specifically examined is one thing.

But another is that scientific papers are very difficult for people who are unfamiliar with them to get to the information they’re looking for and even access is problematic beyond what is available for free on Google, which isn’t the full picture at all.

So, with respect to all reading this and writing posts in this topic, it’s worth noting that no response to a theory doesn’t prove it. Historically speaking, decades of theorising (this topic is 12 years old!) hasn’t delivered the results we would hope for.

#32

Whenever I start my research to PFS, evidences start pointing to liver .
I have been suspecting P450 for a long time.
I found From “https://en”"dot"wikipedia"dot"org/wiki/Addison%27s_disease>
while others accelerate the normal breakdown of hormones by the liver (e.g., rifampicin, phenytoin).[12]
you know my theory is our liver has got sluggish (low p450 enzymes) taking very long time to clear up toxins and metabolites of hormones. These waste from hormones is working as anti-hormones as a result our bio available hormones decrease and blood level increase.
So I expected rifampicin would increase LH and testosterone, did some search and found as I expected
“pubmed"dot"ncbi.nlm.nih"dot"gov/9824786/”
Unlike progesterone levels, FSH and LH levels increased during coadministration with rifampicin and rifabutin
Rifampin increases Testosterone level. From “pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih"dot"gov/7205148”
During treatment with rifampicin testosterone concentrations were significantly elevated as compared to control conditions; this increase was found in the morning (8.00 h) as well as in the afternoon (16.30 h)

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#33

Cruciferous vegetables and coffee also raise the enzyme but unfortunately cause a reaction in many. I’m in no doubt the liver has been heavily compromised and is one of the causes of the/my progressive decline. My test levels are continuing to drop while shbg increases

Insulin resistance will also be causing liver damage as is a p450 inhibitor.

Then the cortisol sensitivity is keeping glucose high

Stuck in a cycle.

Excessive urination has only gotten worse

#34

I haven’t looked much into the liver enzymes involvement in all of this so I’m kind of lost, would in our cases do we want to raise or lower p450? I eat a ton of cruciferous vegetables (cauliflower every week in my dinner and broccoli often too). I noticed a lot of coffee effect weirdness after I crashed. Coffee when I had no sensitization to it gave a boost at first but it was very muted, like the energy I got from it was only a very specific system in my body and my senses overall with it are brighter. After I got sensitized to it in a few days it would for months have a pronounced sedative effect to get over before I could even access any energy from it, I just dealt with it because I couldn’t live without coffee anymore at the time. Gradually this got better as I recovered. I drink a couple full mugs of black coffee every morning. I been experimenting since I can feel it more now with raising my intake of it. I cut back to 2 mugs from an extra in the evening cause it was just hammering my digestive system too hard and I got sensitized to that increase too, overall I did under that feel better but the increased tolerance with gut issues wasn’t worth it enough.

So under these conditions today I decided to take the opportunity to see what would happen if I raised my methyl-b12 dose to 2000 mcg I tend to have better overall functioning but more side effects of it specifically that got really obnoxious around a month back when I tried before. So far so good (I’ll update my own topic at some point over the next few days on my observations with this so far). My theory on getting to that next dose level I seem to need stably is up regulating some systems temporarily with the coffee increase sensitization and then after the day off from extra coffee (that was yesterday, felt so tired by the end of it. the energy dropped off a cliff very quickly) increase the b12 dose without the system shock and hope my body regulates itself quicker under those temporary conditions during the dose change. I know this was the same general bubble of thought I had when I had to gain back my 1000 mcg dose after my immune system went haywire much earlier on after SP somehow totaled my immune system in chain reaction from whatever it did months out (I believe around month 4 that happened with the brain burning and food intolerance problems but I can’t be entirely sure)…

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#35

We want to raise it. Finasteride inhibits it.

While coffee and cruciferous are inducers thay are also 5aris often resulting in a brief uplift only. Like everything with pfs a risk is attached. Some have recovered from exposure to 5ari foods/supps while others get woese

#36

I am very sure I am on the right track here.
Not only cortisol but all other hormones have the same issue, blood values normal or high but free or bioavailable values low. This is why our body cells do not get the correct hormone quantity and we feel awful.

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#37

We need to up our P450 enzymes.
But first we need to have lab test for our liver P450 enzymes to confirm this hypothesis.

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#38

Yeah see that’s why what works for each of us diet wise could be so radically different, since I am largely vegan and have been before this with eating seafood occasionally. My body is probably used to a higher level plant compound 5ari’s in it and because of other genetic factors considering I went this route diet wise because I feel the best on it many years ago. I tried the carnivore with low carb/less veggie intake side of things before and felt horrible on it. After a few weeks I couldn’t take it anymore and ran right back. I’m also someone who does better with propolis which is essentially just a plant compound capsule and many of them in it likely have 5ari properties. I think one major key to recovery is largely what your able to keep stable on for your body long enough to regain homeostasis under and then work from there when you have freedom to do more without as much of a risk of crashing. Unfortunately though there’s no way to tell how to get there because everyone’s body is somewhat different and crashed under different previous conditions.

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#39

Any body has tried st john’s wort ?
SJW has been determined to be an inducer of several CYP450 enzymes, including CYP3A4, CYP2C9, and CYP2C19

#40

Like most things 1 day upturn then it stopped working. (3ish years ago) urination always jmproves during the upswing.

However.early on in pfs I was fine with it but was also on and off fin at the time